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Okay, I've recently gotten into FoW after playing 40K for many many years. In some ways it's my first foray into a "real" wargame, in some ways it's pretty much the same as 40K, Warmachine, Battletech, etc. I've been very pleased with it, since some of the things that have always bothered me about 40K seem to have been resolved:

1) Vehicles make more sense, and you can field platoons of them without some of the goofier 40K squad rules.
2) Ranges also make more sense. You've still got the arty on the board, but at least assault isn't consider to be THE way to kill other teams, guns are.
3) Artillery ranges in, instead of deviating around the board.
4) I can get a ton of stuff for "cheap" compared to 40K. (Yes, I realize the sizes are different)

Which brings me around to my big question. Assuming that you've got an equally good FoW community and a 40K one, and don't already have a huge investment in IG, why play IG in 40K?

1) FoW offers a more realistic approach to man vs man combat.
2) They have squads of tanks, including lists that are just tank squads.
3) The price is much cheaper, so you can put together an entire army of several hundred guys for about 1/5 the cost.
4) When moving your troups around, you move them in 4-5 man clumps, instead of moving a model at a time.
5) IG are pretty much a WWI/WWII army in a Sci-Fantasy game anyway, why not move into something more realistic?
6) The painting standards are lower. This helps, because you can paint 30-40 infantry guys in an evening.
7) The arty is more interesting and varied, rather than a single self-propelled gun, the basilisk (and what sounds like the return of the griffin).

Not trolling, or saying FoW is better, I still have my Orks and Marines, and still play 40, just interested in some discussion.

I've not played it, but a brief scan of the stuff on Amazon suggests that the scale is only slightly larger than Epic, hence the cost is lower. I think it depends how detailed you want your models to look.

The system sounds fun though, so maybe I'll give it a go. Does FoW have "army lists" like 40K or do scenarios dictate what models you take?

Flashman wrote:I've not played it, but a brief scan of the stuff on Amazon suggests that the scale is only slightly larger than Epic, hence the cost is lower. I think it depends how detailed you want your models to look.

True, the models are about half the size of 40K, and much less detailed. It is NOT the game to get into if you want to produce masterpieces in miniature. However, it's also the fact that you can buy a 1750 tournament force for $50, though this is an extreme example, reasonable complete armies can be had for $100-150 and up. Contrast this with 40K where you can pay $50 for 5 models. In FoW you can get 126 models, 4 squad weapons, and 3 large guns for like $65 retail.

The system sounds fun though, so maybe I'll give it a go. Does FoW have "army lists" like 40K or do scenarios dictate what models you take?

Army Lists, sort of.

They've got WWII divided into three sections, early, mid and late. There's nothing for early war, mid war has two $40 books covering everything, late war has a $40 book with generic armies, and then $25 intelligence briefings that feature 5-10 very specific forces. The books are focused around various fronts, and the intelligence briefings contain scenarios, but the rule book has fairly generic missions that can be fought with anything. The books cover all the forces that fought in a specific theater, so you could get one book that covers for Russians, British, Americans, and Germans, each with multiple different army types (tanks, infantry, scout teams, etc.).

Once you start collecting things, it's very easy to generate multiple different armies within the same nationality, due to similar equipment. For example, right now I've been collecting Germans. I've got a couple of tank platoons, some infantry, StuG, arty, etc. I can pickup a company box for something like Paratroops ($50-70US), use my tanks as a supporting unit, and play something very different. Or I could make the tanks the main army, and use the paratroopers as support. In addition, different armies have troops with differing qualities of moral or training. So I could use my tanks as normal Germans and take more stuff, or use them as elite Waffen-SS and get much less stuff.

BigToof wrote:Which brings me around to my big question. Assuming that you've got an equally good FoW community and a 40K one, and don't already have a huge investment in IG, why play IG in 40K?

1) FoW offers a more realistic approach to man vs man combat.
2) They have squads of tanks, including lists that are just tank squads.
3) The price is much cheaper, so you can put together an entire army of several hundred guys for about 1/5 the cost.
4) When moving your troups around, you move them in 4-5 man clumps, instead of moving a model at a time.
5) IG are pretty much a WWI/WWII army in a Sci-Fantasy game anyway, why not move into something more realistic?
6) The painting standards are lower. This helps, because you can paint 30-40 infantry guys in an evening.
7) The arty is more interesting and varied, rather than a single self-propelled gun, the basilisk (and what sounds like the return of the griffin).

For my money, with FOW compared to 40k, with 40k you get a cooler background which you can do anything with (as opposed to 'historical forces and weapons', and the bigger scale minis offer more detail to paint (if that's your thing).

If I wanted to do '40k' as FOW, I'd go to Epic. I get the same things you're describing above, plus Titans, Baneblades, better aircraft rules, even easier time painting, because they're 6mm, and a larger feeling of scope.

I don't have a problem with FOW, aside from the fact that just about everyone I know who plays the game plays Late War. There are very few who play Early or Mid, because the tanks, guns, etc. just aren't as cool.

I think FOW and Epic would be a more appropriate comparison.

Out of curiosity, do Americans figure in "early war"?

^^^Nope, but you get French in exchange!



I play both my only complaint about FoW is the game loses some balance in LW when it's cheaper to spam units and super tanks aren't huge pt sinks anymore.

Well, as an IG player who has tried FoW and went "meh," I prefer the sci-fi aspect of it - the bugs and mushrooms and supermen and daemons and undead space robots.

I'd hate IG if all I played was other IG, I'd hate it.

Instead, it's me, in the 41st millenium, with a flashlight and a flak jacket, staring down the worst thing that an Englishman can imagine happening forty thousand years from now.

And that, sir, is why I love IG.

I think I need a copy of FoW. I wanna see how well it would translate into a Mobile Suit Gundam Battle System 3rd Edition since it's the perfect scale for MSIA figures.

bryantsbears wrote:Well, as an IG player who has tried FoW and went "meh," I prefer the sci-fi aspect of it - the bugs and mushrooms and supermen and daemons and undead space robots.

I'd hate IG if all I played was other IG, I'd hate it.

Instead, it's me, in the 41st millenium, with a flashlight and a flak jacket, staring down the worst thing that an Englishman can imagine happening forty thousand years from now.

And that, sir, is why I love IG.

QFT... except as Chaos, I am the one killing the IG (which technically I "play" in real life... and get paid for it! ).

Cruentus wrote:
For my money, with FOW compared to 40k, with 40k you get a cooler background which you can do anything with (as opposed to 'historical forces and weapons', and the bigger scale minis offer more detail to paint (if that's your thing).

True, but not so much with IG. You're still constained by the codex and nature of the army.

If I wanted to do '40k' as FOW, I'd go to Epic. I get the same things you're describing above, plus Titans, Baneblades, better aircraft rules, even easier time painting, because they're 6mm, and a larger feeling of scope.

I don't have a problem with FOW, aside from the fact that just about everyone I know who plays the game plays Late War. There are very few who play Early or Mid, because the tanks, guns, etc. just aren't as cool.

I think FOW and Epic would be a more appropriate comparison.

This may be. Personally I think that the current Epic is a bit boring, particular compared to Space Marine. The unit have almost all be reduced to pure stats, and all the fun rules have been pulled out. I also think that the "super" units sort of kill some comparisons. FoW has very similar force composition, and tactics to 40K, just a slight difference in scale. You've got the basics of men, machines, and moral. When you start to add in the "super" units (Titans, SuperTanks, Bio Constructs, Uber Deamons) it really becomes ALL about the uber units, with the rest of the forces playing a supporting role. Take out the super units and things are more comparable.

Flashman wrote:Out of curiosity, do Americans figure in "early war"?

Nope, early war (39-41) doesn't have the USA in it. Battlefront don't do official lists for early war yet, late summer 44 is their current period.

FoW isn't a 40k replacement both can co-exist (I stopped playing 40k for other reasons, not because I got into FoW).

Late war is the easiest period to get a game for but I am tempted to do an early war list at some point. Mid war is a bit flawed IMO due to the massive technology increase from 42-43.

George Spiggott wrote:
FoW isn't a 40k replacement both can co-exist (I stopped playing 40k for other reasons, not because I got into FoW).

Oh, and I'm not saying that it's a replacement either. Rather, that it might make sense for somebody who's going for that average joe ground pounder might get a better experience from FoW. I know at least one of my buddies who says that's his big interest in IG.

Oh, and I think that the reason that the players focus on Late War is that it's the current new shiny. Mid war basically has two books for it, and nothing new going on. I don't think it's all about uber power units, though I've seen that happen with other systems. (Battletech Clans anybody?)

Hmm... have done more perusal of Flame of War stuff on various sites. The tanks look well modelled, infantry not so much. I'm intrigued enough to pick up a rulebook though.

I agree with Big Toof that 40K tends to focus too much on assault. In a game involving guns (no matter how much cover is kicking about), assault should be a minor factor.

FoW is 15mm I believe.

If you wanted to, you could do FoW using 20mm figures and 1/72 scale kits, for more detail.

You could even do 28mm figures and 1/48 scale vehicle kits.

All ranges would have to be increased of course.

The point about the use of 15mm or smaller for modern games is that the range of the weapons requires you to use smaller models to fit the battle onto a tabletop.

BigToof wrote:
Oh, and I'm not saying that it's a replacement either. Rather, that it might make sense for somebody who's going for that average joe ground pounder might get a better experience from FoW. I know at least one of my buddies who says that's his big interest in IG.

Oh, and I think that the reason that the players focus on Late War is that it's the current new shiny. Mid war basically has two books for it, and nothing new going on. I don't think it's all about uber power units, though I've seen that happen with other systems. (Battletech Clans anybody?)

I enjoy both games. FoW has a more intuitive feel to it. They seem to have taken 40k mechanics and rebuilt them. There are still abstractions that you just have to go with, but, I think the rules are tight. I like the 40k world better, but then Band of Brothers pops up on TV and I wanna play FoW.

I notice a gravitation to Late War simply for the bigger guns. If you play Late and your opponent brings Late Russian Tankhunters (dunno the name, but they look like giant StuGs), and all you brought was some StuGs, you are screwed.

Didn't see it mentioned, but they say they are 15mm models.

I think the game is a bit more tactical. Digging out platoons of infantry that have gone to ground and are not shooting is damn tough. Fantastic way to hold objectives. And if you bring your tanks too close, they can get swamped.

Flashman wrote:Hmm... have done more perusal of Flame of War stuff on various sites. The tanks look well modelled, infantry not so much. I'm intrigued enough to pick up a rulebook though.

The flames of war infantry are very well modelled.... for something that's 15 mm. Honestly, GW has slightly better models, but you can also do a ton more with a face that's twice as large. When you're at the table top level, those models all look very good. They don't look as good at the normal 28 mm camera ranges, and sizes. Really the faces and hands on most of the infantry would be about to size of a SM belt buckle....

Some people like big models. There are gamers who play with 54mm.

Those big bad boys make 28mm heroic look like silly little toys.

It seems slightly odd to me (and perhaps a little sneaky) that FoW 1st edition was very much focused on the more unstable Mid-War period, and with 2nd Edition, it gravitated strongly to Late War.

If I ever get fully inot it, I would collect a Late War British Airlanding Company (specifically the 2nd Ox & Bucks Light Infantry, D Company)

Hi all.
Well if I was painting for display purpouses , then I would pick 25 mm or larger minatures.

However for playing a war game, the minatures usualy get smaller the larger the game size.This way the game looks 'right' on the table.

If you have too greater discrepancy between vertical scale,(minature hieght,)and horizontal scale,(measured distances.)The games table can look far too cramped.(40k is getting like this IMO.)

I prefer FoW for more intuative rules, (IMO,) and cheaper collection costs.

40k stuff is more fun to paint IMO.

TTFN
Lanrak.