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I've little experience with the Magic Phase from an offensive perspective. I would like a solid magic offense, but I'd like to do it without resorting to the Level 4. Is it possible to run an effective magic phase with only 2 Level 2's?

I was considering 1 Level 2 with the Dagger in a battery....errr...unit of Spear Elves and the other Level 2 on a Steed or Dark Pegasus with the Focus Familiar.

With the free spell to generate PD I can try to throw down at least 4-6 casts per turn, maybe less if I've rolled one of the bigger spells that's useful to cast.

Any thoughts on whether this will be effective vs. normal magic defense (5dd & 2 scrolls)?

No, I don't think so. You can only cast up to 4 spells due to the # you know, and you can only use 3 dice per spell, so even assuming perfect rolling you'll have twelve dice going at them. If half of that succeeds you'll have two spells going off at 3 dice, they can scroll one and dispel the other with their 5 dice.

But that's best case, and that's unlikely. More likely is that you only have one spell on each wiz that they care about (DE magic isn't that great) and they just focus on those two.

The adage of the magic phase is go long or go home, halfway measures will get you nowhere.

DE's got some special rules man.

First is the default spell they know where they can create D3+1 PD. Casts on a 4+.

Also DE Sorceresses can cast with as many PD as they want for any spell. So if I roll up the higher spells, I can throw as many as I've got + pool at the big spell if I really wanted to.

Plus the DE lore is fantastic. The "Worst" spells are #5 & #6, and even then #5 has great utility - you just have to be closer to stuff than you may like. Not so great on the Sorceress on foot with the Dagger, but a lot nicer on the one with the Focus Familiar.

Here's my thinking on trying to get some mileage out of the Level 2's:

I will almost always have the default spell in my decks for both Mages.

Level 2 w/ Dagger sits in Spear unit. Throws 1 Dice at creating more PD for herself. If I don't cast successfully (4+), then I kill an Elf and throw another die at it.

At this point they have to try and cut me off early, or I'm coming back with more PD, or at minimum it's a wash.

She can then throw a single dice at at the default MM spell (which is fantastic) and again gut a spear elf if I want, and then throw more dice at her second spell (pull from the pool if it's too high or the extra PD spell didn't go off), gutting another elf if the casting is too low.

Goal here is to draw stuff with her. Depending on her spell selection (if I get lucky and roll spells 1 & 2), I could just sit there and throw one dice at each and then kill spears to get the dice to reliably get it off or make the difficulty higher. Leaving the Pool Dice to the other Level 2 flying around on the Peg. Worst case scenario is the Peg Sorceress doesn't get enough dice to cast her second spell reliably, at which point I have to start playing with her throwing the extra PD spell to get dice to get both spells off with as many dice as possible.

Granted, this isn't getting through seriously dedicated magic defense (ie. more than 5 or 6 DD), but against armies in a middle tier comp system, it may give me enough to get through. I think it's worth play testing, especially against say DoC builds with 3x10 Horrors + Sundering for Magic Defense.

Follow Up Question though: What about 3 level 2's?

I'm more curious why you don't want to use the level 4 Sorceress? The High Sorceress is almost always much more effective than the heroine variants. Even if you only wanted magic defence, a level 3 or 4 High Sorceress with 4 dispel scrolls is probably more useful than two scroll caddies.

You want a Dreadlord on a Dragon in your army for thematic reasons?

Three level 2 Dark Elves could be credible magic offense if they actually had a spell that must be dispeled every turn. For example if they had access to lore of beasts. Now, I'd say you're spending an awful lot of points to get a couple magic missiles off, and against Flesh Hound (MR3) spam I doubt you even get that.

I don't think the DE magic phase is all that. The problem for a lot of players is the DE going all out with the magic phase and combining that with a lot of armour piercing archers and possibly two RBTs. It all starts to add up and often makes for a rather one-sided encounter.

Anyway, I understand if you're trying to make the most out of a medium amount of wizards. It's just that in my opinion the much more interesting and fun way to play Dark Elves is to try to take as few wizards as possible and employ the magic resistance and Hotek bubble to maximum effect. Dark Elves are on the very short list of armies that can (sort of) get away with not using wizards at all.

3 Lvl 2'a would be sick. Dont forget the ring of hotek its a good idea to give it to a champion of a unit or maybe one of your lvl twos for extra magic defense. Null talismans come in handy for that as well. I like to run a lvl 4 on cold one with the focus familar and 2x dispell scrolls while my lvl 2 has the dagger. I give the ring of hotek to my champion in the cold one unit and run em all over the table with the lvl 4 throwing down huge amounts of DE magic nastyiness. Ive got a RTT in less then two weeks and intend on running my lvl 4 and my lvl 2 exactly as stated above. The lvl 2 on dark pegasus will be very vunerable to shooting and magic herself and probaly wouldnt survive very long on her own. Thats why mine runs on units so at least that way they're somewhat safe.

I'm looking at it for a few reasons:

#1) Yes I still want to run my Dragon. It's too cool not to run, it's got to be in there.

#2) I'm looking at making a list where I can cop good comp and make it into at least the "middle tier" pairings for rounds 1-3 in a coming event, and I was hoping that I could get a credible Magic Phase without going with the Level 4.

The upcoming event is going to use two 2k Point lists where the first list is used in rounds 1-3, and this list is used to match you up into "comp tiers" where you can face off against similar armies for the first three rounds. The last three rounds you have the option of switching out between your two lists for any of the games. I'm aiming to make something to take me into the middle bracket, I figure the Level 4 would start to push me into "VC and DoC Land". In this list, I wouldn't be running the Dragon in the first list to cop my good comp tier, but he'd have to be in the second list at a minimum.


#3) I actually want to experiment running a "real" magic phase. I guess that means playing with the Level 4 some, but you have to understand my WHFB Gaming Background: Dwarfs & Ogres. Even though I ran 3 Butchers for the OK's, it's not really a normal magic phase. I was sort of hoping to build an all around list I could use for general play that lets me use my pretty little dragon and still get some magic off.

nieto666 wrote:3 Lvl 2'a would be sick. Dont forget the ring of hotek its a good idea to give it to a champion of a unit or maybe one of your lvl twos for extra magic defense. Null talismans come in handy for that as well. I like to run a lvl 4 on cold one with the focus familar and 2x dispell scrolls while my lvl 2 has the dagger. I give the ring of hotek to my champion in the cold one unit and run em all over the table with the lvl 4 throwing down huge amounts of DE magic nastyiness. Ive got a RTT in less then two weeks and intend on running my lvl 4 and my lvl 2 exactly as stated above. The lvl 2 on dark pegasus will be very vunerable to shooting and magic herself and probaly wouldnt survive very long on her own. Thats why mine runs on units so at least that way they're somewhat safe.

be careful with that ring as it affects both enemy and friendly wizards. Although, I'd love to see your wizards blow themselves up across the table from me because you didn't catch that until after the game started.

Its good defense just gotta keep the casters away thats all.

I've been considering running the Ring plus two casters (either the 2 level 2's, or a Level 4 & a Level 2). I figure as long as they're mobile enough, I should be good. Hell done right you could very easily have the ring in another unit, somewhat close to the Spear Elf Battery while keeping your Level 2 out of range to cast, but still having the unit within the area of effect.

It would suck though, if your opponent could find any spells that targeted individual models instead of the unit.. Then they could snipe them out of the unit because you were so careful to put your wizard just outside of it's area of effect. From the fire lore, Burning Head could be used to lay a path straight into her without running into the unit and Burning Iron from the lore of metal and Steal Soul from the lore of Death can both target single models. Of course a couple of null stones would help against that.

Dirty slann tactics that all i have to say

Got to add my few pennies here.

Now, although an experienced and successful DE General, I rarely take much in the way of Magic. I prefer my big gribblies.

However on the occasion I do, I prefer to throw two power dice behind the Generator Spell. This pretty much guarantees it's casting, and if my opponent wants to dispel it (they often do!) it draws out at least 2 dispel dice, more often 3. Then, should this work, I have drawn out dispel dice, and am guaranteed to return the initial dice used to my pool, and most likely more. Rinse and Repeat.

So I end up with more Power Dice, my opponent on fewer Dispel Dice, then my Magic Phase can begin. 50/50 just isn't dependable enough for me!

nieto666 wrote:Dirty slann tactics that all i have to say

says the man with army wide hatred.. I don't think you have much room to talk about cheese. That's ok.. my lizardmen shall remain undefeated against your elf kind! MWUAHAHAHAHA!

Against wood elves yes against dark elves we shall see!!

nieto666 wrote:Against wood elves yes against dark elves we shall see!!

As long as I can find a way to contain whatever nasty assassins you have, I'll be set. Otherwise, it's going to be a dark day in Lustria. The list I'm running though is expensive on the character side, which is bad as it will allow you to capitalize with your assassins more, but I've got to reach that 2250 pt somehow and my old metal stegadon is still only 40% assembled. But don't fret my pet, I shall still prove a worthy adversary. Anyway, enough thread-jacking for trash talk. While not particularly tied to your magic phase, I did read your DE FAQ, they were talking about your repeater crossbows, not your reaper bolt throwers like you thought when we were talking. I don't know why the repeaters wouldn't.. but then again I don't have a DE army book so I can't be sure of it's rules for your repeaters..

Well dont build your list just to kick my a$$ hell im building my list for the turnie. balanced and blood thirsty. Ive got it all good offensive magic, good defense against magic a super strong shooting phase. 4 dedacated cc units which will shred anything they charge. U are correct though enough thread jacking for the day.

I'm not gearing it to dominate your DE, I don't really have the models to do that effectively. I am however, taking my balanced but aggressive force and putting a lot of magic in. If I wanted to ruin your assassins I'd gor rok and chakax. Nothing like forcing re-rolls to wound, immunity to killing blow, T5 and 2+ save to put a dampener on your assassins effectiveness. Not to mention the other gets 4 strength 7 attacks and gives you ASL. But, alas, I lack the models and even if I had them I'd find them largely a waste of points. Back to the Dark Elf magic phase, am I the only one that thinks Blade Wind is needlessly complicated and not that much better than a 2d6 strength 4 magic missile? As is it averages 10.5 hits, 3.5 against WS 9-10, 5.25 against WS4-8, 7 against WS 1-3. Meanwhile a 2d6 magic missile would just average 7 hits and be done with it...