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Hello all! I'm having a friendly disagreement with a frind. I'm hoping that discussion on this forum will help us decide how to proceed in our interpretation of rules.

I have three questions. Below I will post some notes on the rules and how they influence our discussion.

1. If an Enforcer has the "Inventor" techno skill, does he roll to invent after a battle if he is not part of the patrol team?

2. If an Enforcer has the "Medic" techno skill, can he use his skill to help another injured enforcer he is not part of the patrol team?

3. If an enforcer has the "Armourer" techno skill, but is not part of the patrol team, does he check his comrades weapons and give them the +1 to their ammo roll?

Thanks for taking the time to read my post. Please vote in the poll and respond with your thoughts!

Answering these questions (which my friend and I do very differently) depends on how you interpret several rules. I'll reproduce them here...

THE PATROL TEAM
…
This means you may not usually use your entire Precinct
squad when you fight a battle, and must instead select a
five-man Patrol team that will take part in the battle. You
may select any five members of the squad to take part. The
Cyber-mastiff and its Handler must be taken together (you
can’t split them up) but only count as a single member of
the five man patrol (ie. you can take the Cyber-mastiff, its
Handler and four other squad members).

The Patrol team is treated as the members of the ‘gang’ for
all rules purposes. So, if a scenario calls for only certain
members of a gang to be used, then this rule would be
applied to the members of the Patrol team rather than the
whole squad.

(much of our disagreement has to do with the use of quotation marks around "gang." What does that mean to you?)

(much also depends on when you think the game begins and ends. What are your thougts on that? When does the patrol begin and end? What happens before the patrol? What happens after? How do terms like "at the end of the game" used in the "fighters down at the end of the game" rule affect your interpretation of the patrol?)

1 Armourer

The armourer checks all the weapons being used by the
gang before the battle starts. Any model in the gang may
add +1 to any and all Ammo rolls (including a roll to
determine if a weapon explodes). A roll of 1 is always a
failure regardless.

3 Inventor

Roll a D6 after each battle. On a roll of 6 the model has
invented something! Randomly select an item from the
rare Trade Chart in the Trading Post section (page 97).
Whatever is selected is the item that has been invented.

4 Medic

The model has some experience of patching up his fellow
fighters. If your gang includes a fighter with this skill you
can re-roll a result on the Serious Injury table for one
model after a battle.

good useful set of skills, maybe not having Inventor give something on the rare trade charts but instead maybe something like makes a gun from scrap or generates extra creds or something?

When your gang goes on a Raid or Rescue Mission or a Shootout or anything like that, you often use less than your full compiment of fighters.

In all of these situations, Medic, Inventor and Armourer are used, even when the gang members that possess those skills are not present.

I cannot see how this wouldn't apply to Wannabe Arbites.

BYE

We're trying to get a sense of how the rules as written require these skillls to be played. Your suggestion is interesting, but when playing a campaign with strangers, how should the rules in the rulebook be interpreted?

H.B.M.C. wrote:When your gang goes on a Raid or Rescue Mission or a Shootout or anything like that, you often use less than your full compiment of fighters.

In all of these situations, Medic, Inventor and Armourer are used, even when the gang members that possess those skills are not present.

I cannot see how this wouldn't apply to Wannabe Arbites.

BYE

Thanks so much!

We were really hoping to hear from some Enforcers players on this subject. How do you guys play it?

Were we now?

Me and my buddy Andrew. We want to know how to play the rule. Are you an Enforcer player? How do you play it?

Yeh, sorry. Thought you were one of these skizophreniaks. I play/played Escher as it happens but I have a rulebook somwhere I will take a look at.

RobertGoulet wrote:(much of our disagreement has to do with the use of quotation marks around "gang." What does that mean to you?)

The quotation marks are there because unlike golliath, delaque etc. Arbites aren't a gang, they are a police force.

OK, interesting, now how do you think this affects our skills question?

Perhaps you can find an Enforcer player on the Eastern Fringe.

The question has been resolved. I recieved the following email from the Arbitrator General:

Re: Rules question: Enforcers
From:
Rob Reiner

Thursday, February 26, 2009 09:02PM
To:
RobertGoulet
Sent by:
Rob Reiner

Here you go and here is something else for you in case you did not have it or know where to get it...


Q: I have an enforcer with the techno skills inventor, armourer, and medic. In a battle, he is not a member of the patrol team. What are the effects of his skills on the patrol team?

A: This does not just apply to enforcers, so here you go…a fighter that does not participate in a battle does not lend his in game bonuses to the Gang (like from Armourer); however, even though he did not participate in the battle he is still part of the gang during the Post Battle Sequence. He would not get experience, but could help with injuries (like with Medic), can collect income (and use Inventor), and you would need to feed him.

Armourer is something that's used between games to improve the quality of everyone's guns. It's not used during a game... how would an armourer keep everyone's guns firing during a battle when they're all spread around.

Perhaps this guy got the skill confused with Weapon Smith.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:Armourer is something that's used between games to improve the quality of everyone's guns. It's not used during a game... how would an armourer keep everyone's guns firing during a battle when they're all spread around.

Perhaps this guy got the skill confused with Weapon Smith.

BYE

I agree with you. Of all the skills I would have guessed the Enforcers could use, Armourer would have been my first guess.

For me and my friend, it all hinges on this idea of the Patrol Team being the "Gang' for all rules purposes." In his mind, this means that those members of the Precinct Squad not on the Patrol Team do absolutely nothing. They are in a black hole. They are not in the gang, just as extra models in your basement are not in your gang.

For me, I read the quotations around the word "gang" to suggest that the rules should be read looking for that word. The armourer rule, for instance, mentions the gang saying that the person with the skill checks the weapons "of the gang" before they go out. Even if he is not a member of the gang, he checks their weapons.

For the inventor rule, the "gang" is not mentioned. The rule for the skill merely states that after each battle the player should roll to see whether the model invents. Easy enough.

For the medic, however, the rule says "if your gang has a model with this skill" or something like that. It's clear to me, therefore, that if a precinct member is not a member of the Patrol Team "gang," then he should not be able to use this skill to help his buddies.

Another possible interpretation is that what is meant by "gang' for all rules purposes" is "all rules purposes of the scenario." The are loads of rules, restrictions on equipment, skill tables, retirement rules, medical rules, that apply to the entire Precinct Squad. There being so many dozens of rules that apply to all 10 Enforcers suggests that the Patrol Team rule was never meant to suggest that the other five live in a dark void where no rules apply to them. I can't give two guys a plasma pistol. I can't have two heavy stubbers. I can only have one Sergeant. I can only have one handler. I can retire an enforcer after any fight and have him replaced by a nebie from the Courthouse. Why? Because those are the rules. Those rules don't apply to the Patrol Team "gang," they apply to the Precinct Squad.

Clearly, sometimes the Patrol Team is the "gang" and sometimes the Precinct Squad is the "gang." Which skills can be used depend on how you interpret the Patrol team rule, and hopefully it's clear how I decided that Inventor and Armourer should be used, but not Medic.

"This guy" you say, who sent me the email, is the Arbitrator General. He is the author of the 2nd ed Enforcers book and the 2008 FAQ. As you can see, I don't agree with his decision, but at least it is a clear decision that my opponents and I can abide by. It ends the argument, which makes me happy.

As was said, they say 'gang' in quotes because the Enforcers are the law, they're not "gangsters". They're treated no differently to any other force in the game though for the purposes of being a gang.

"For the medic, however, the rule says "if your gang has a model with this skill" or something like that. It's clear to me, therefore, that if a precinct member is not a member of the Patrol Team "gang," then he should not be able to use this skill to help his buddies."

Completely wrong. He's part of the gang. He appears on the 'Gang Roster' or 'Gang Sheet'. Getting hung up over the quotes around 'gang' doesn't change that.

If they introduced a Space Marine Scout Squad as a 'gang', they'd do the same thing - they wouldn't be a gang as Marines don't go around in 'gangs' but for game purposes they are a gang just like everyone else.

BYE

I think a rule stated in an army's list deserves at least some consideration. Stating that the Patrol Team is the "gang" for all rules purposes has some affect, just as the rules for the Precinct Squad have some effect.

Three quick poitns for y ou all to chew on...

One...hello as I have lurked here for a while and decided recently to jump in...

Two...the Patrol Team is a gang that has special rules that essentially choose your fihgters for you, albiet not randomly, but still limits you. I will clear that up in the FAQ, but if you look at the 'Using Enforcers in Necromunda' rules on page 57 of FM1 and also the 'The Patrol Team' rules on page 58 of FM1 you will see that the intent is fully to have Enforcers be a gang, but to be limted as they are more powerful. Hence, PAtrol Team, Precinct Squad, whatever you want to call it, they will act as a 'Gang' in Necromunda when their specific and special rules do not superceed the 'stadnard' rules.

Third..my mistake...here is the revised ruling after further review...

Q: I have an enforcer with the techno skills inventor, armourer, and medic. In a battle, he is not a member of the patrol team. What are the effects of his skills on the patrol team?
A: This does not just apply to enforcers, so here you go…a fighter that does not participate in a battle does not lend his in game bonuses to the Gang; however, even though he did not participate in the battle he is still part of the gang during the Post Battle Sequence. He would not get experience, but could help with injuries (like with Medic), check weapons (like with Armourer), can collect income (and use Inventor), and you would need to feed him.

Are you the same person who emailed me?

THE_ARBITRATOR_GENERAL wrote:Q: I have an enforcer with the techno skills inventor, armourer, and medic. In a battle, he is not a member of the patrol team. What are the effects of his skills on the patrol team?
A: This does not just apply to enforcers, so here you go…a fighter that does not participate in a battle does not lend his in game bonuses to the Gang; however, even though he did not participate in the battle he is still part of the gang during the Post Battle Sequence. He would not get experience, but could help with injuries (like with Medic), check weapons (like with Armourer), can collect income (and use Inventor), and you would need to feed him.

Just as I thought. These are, after all, between-mission skills, not in-mission skills.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:

THE_ARBITRATOR_GENERAL wrote:Q: I have an enforcer with the techno skills inventor, armourer, and medic. In a battle, he is not a member of the patrol team. What are the effects of his skills on the patrol team?
A: This does not just apply to enforcers, so here you go…a fighter that does not participate in a battle does not lend his in game bonuses to the Gang; however, even though he did not participate in the battle he is still part of the gang during the Post Battle Sequence. He would not get experience, but could help with injuries (like with Medic), check weapons (like with Armourer), can collect income (and use Inventor), and you would need to feed him.

Just as I thought. These are, after all, between-mission skills, not in-mission skills.

BYE

Yes, the Armourer rule clearly states that he checks the gang's weapons BEFORE the fight. In my reading, that makes it part of the pre-battle sequence, like rolling for which scenario to use, choosing the members of the patrol team, rolling for Old Battle Wound, etc.

Now you're arguing for things that don't exist. There are no skills used before a game begins. There are only skills during a game, and after a game. Besides, the rules for Armourer are pretty cut and dry:

"Any model in the gang may add +1 to any and all Ammo rolls... ." - Page 91

So, in order to use this skill during a game, the only question you have to ask is "Is this model 'any model' in my unit?", and considering I've yet to find a model that isn't a model, the answer to this will always be "Yes".


And, even if you're right, and this skill exists as the single skill used pre-game rather than post-game, it still makes no difference. As I have said before, either in this thread or another, who is actually participating in a game makes no difference to what skills can be used. If I have an Armourer who does not come to my Raid of Rescue Mission, I still get the Armourer benefits - its use post-game or pre-game makes no difference here.

BYE

The full rule on Page 91 is this:

1 Armourer

The armourer checks all the weapons being used by the
gang before the battle starts. Any model in the gang may
add +1 to any and all Ammo rolls (including a roll to
determine if a weapon explodes). A roll of 1 is always a
failure regardless.


"The armourer checks all weapons being used by the gang before the battle starts" means before the battle starts, not after, and not during.

As for scenarios like raid, models who don't show up to fight are still in your 'gang,' whereas models not in the Patrol Team are not in the 'gang.' This is significant for rules like Armourer and Medic that mentionthe "gang"

As has already been said, you're reading far too much into the use of 'gang' over gang in the wording. The only reason they says 'gang' rather than gang is because are not a gang in the same way as all the other groups in Necromunda - they're law enforcement, so are, by definition, not a gang.

BYE

I'd be more likely to accept your argument if you could provide more support. I understand this is how you feel, but rules are rules. The word "gang" is used deliberately, and it should be given at least some consideration.

We cannot simply ignore the rules we don't like.

I believe the distinction of "gang" is models that are represented on the table top.

For your rules query this is the way I've always played enforcers.

The Armourer's skill may be used during the battle even if he is not in the patrol (or gang)

The other two skills may be used after the battle even if the models themselves did not participate in the fight

And HBMC is right you are getting to hung up on the word gang. basically what that rule is saying is anytime you see the word "gang" in the main rule book, replace it with patrol team if your an enforcers player