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See the other thread for details on how this thread works. Yes, I am too lazy to repeat myself.

ungulateman

First point that should be made is that almost every unit in the list are copies of one in the other.
And I think that is a good way to structure the arguements initially

Except:
Harpies (which could forseeably be a stand in for great eagles)
Tiranoc Chariot (the white lion chariot would be more akin to the cold one chariot)
Hydra
Assassin

All other units have a 'mirror image' unit in the other list, however one will always be better, and where they are in the list makes a big difference.

For example...
Dark Riders: Core. With repeater x-bows would anyone say the Ellyrian Reavers are even close? I think not.

More to come...

Assassins, Hydras, hatred rules... these are some of the things that make Dark Elves slightly better. You can go back and forth with the 'yes but the other side has this' talk, but I think at the end of the day the above has the most potential.

Both great armies though, quite well designed I think.

Hydras are insanely good, and the HEs struggle to best them, I've seen 6 DPs in the flank of one bounce on the charge, thanks to regeneration.


I think ASF is better than the hatred. Hatred doesn't help if if you can't attack because you have been killed.

However assassins mean the same for the high elves...

DE have to pick their battles more carefully vs HEs than vs other enemies. Putting the ASF banner on something like black guard or CoKs will go a long way towards beating the HE.

I believe that in movement they are pretty equal. In combat HEs have a slight advantage. Druchii sorcery is probably better than High Elf magic. Dark Elf shooting is both cheaper, and better than what HE bring.

Dark elves can bring many terror causing monsters to the game, but then again HEs can bring 2 dragons at 2000 points.

Assassins are great, the number of ASF attacks they get is enough to clear out a normal (non HE) kill zone by himself, and the ability to potentially throw S7 throwing stars is just priceless. For the life of me I can't figure out why I only bring 1 to my games.

I think assassins were put in specifically to deal with high elves because without them they would always lose combat....always. All in all I think DE are more interesting and should probably come out on top.

I think that assassins and the upgrades they have access to makes them the winner in this contest for sure. ASF and initiative 10 ensures they will always get their attacks in first, while by themselves they can get as many as 7 WS 9 attacks with hatred, killing blow and poison. By themselves, they may whiff a round of attacks, but put them in a block of infantry and they'll have all the static combat resolution needed to stay stuck in.
On top of that, Black Guard with the ASF banner will ensure that they attack before every HE unit (exempting heroes) except Phoenix Guard who would have to roll off to see who goes first.
I would think that with the easy access to powerful magic and shooting that HEs would easily trump Hydras. The lore of fire would seem a no brainer as the fire attacks would negate the Hydra's regeneration.
I have thought of ways to use High Elves to beat them, but I haven't come up with anything that isn't cheese. Personally, I'd take a larger than average unit of white lions with the banner of Sorcery (due to being resistant to shooting), put them in a forest with Caradyn and Teclis in the unit. Dark Elf shooting would be hampered by the light cover and the White Lion's 3+ armor save vs shooting, while Teclis (and a lvl 1 scroll caddy somewhere else) would generate 6-8 dispel dice with 1 super dispel scroll and 2 normal ones, providing a very effective magic defense. Should a scouting assassin or shadowblade attack the unit Caradyn would challenge him and die. Hopefully Caradyn will take him along with him with his D6 wounds to his killer, which has fairly good odds. Then Teclis would make it a point to spend his magic phase nuking whatever he could with his 8-12 power dice and al doubles = irresistible force, being careful to avoid any unit with the ring of hotek while the scroll caddy tried to do something to prove he's there for more than just his scrolls and good looks.

After playing multiple games against High Elves with my Dark Elves, I've come to these conclusions.

1. High Elves are more dependent on static resolution than their dark cousins. Hence ASF, to help gain a few more kills for resolution.

2. Dark Elves, on the other hand, although sharing the need for static resolution, many units in the list can also combine their static resolution with active(?) resolution (i.e. kills) In a one-on-one match up, Eternal Hatred can possibly ruin a high elf's day.

I think ASF is better than the hatred. Hatred doesn't help if if you can't attack because you have been killed.

I'd like to disagree here. for example, 15 High Elf Spearmen Vs. 15 Corsairs. This battle can have two endings. The HE's kill off the Corsair's rank before they strike, winning the combat, in which case you're absolutely right. But, in other cases, the Corsairs have two attacks each. With re-rollable hits, bad rolls have a lesser chance of happening (but they can still happen anyway!) and they can hopefully out-kill their high elf cousins.


That's my 0.02 cents right there. Not much else to say on my part really....

Um...Tyrion, Teclis.

We done here?

Also range of shooting infantry is an issue.
The Long bows of HE archers allow them to position further back/shoot further into the DE deployment zone.

However I do admit it is a truely frightening prospect when your DE opponent rolls 20 dice to hit with his repeater x-bows for a minimum sized unit.

40kenthusiast wrote:Um...Tyrion, Teclis.

We done here?

I think you should forget special characters. For a lot of people they are peripheral because a great deal of tournaments don't allow them. The OP might like to cut in here and make a call as to whether these threads are inclusive or exclusive of special characters though.

Against HE the black guard with the banner of hag graf and koran are the way to go!! Koran offers challenges to anyone and anything they charge or get charged by. His armour says make a toughness test or lose all your attacks which works great against all TO 3. A 50% chance is all you really need and his three str 6 attacks should be more then a match except for the most hardy of heros or champions with really good armour saves. 2 assassins is the way to go in anything 2000+ they are super killy and can get the job done. The cauldron of blood can really benefeit all DE as well. A really dirty tactic, which i intend to give a go one day, is take a 20 man unit of corsairs with the hand, the banner that gives them frenzy and a battle standard with the hydra banner. A cauldron of blood follows them useing the extra attacks power when in close proxiemty for a charge or stand and shoot, or the 5+ ward save to protect them better from shooting and magic. 10 across two ranks deep gives em a hell of a front and if they get charged they'll discharge 22 shots from handcrossbows that will hit on 4s and wound on 4s 6-7 saves right off the bat from shooting. put a assassin in there with runes of khaine and the killing blow. this here is insane the assassin has 3 base attacks, ex HW 4, frenzy 5, war hydra banner 6, cauldron fo blood 7, runes of khaine d3 more 8-10 attacks in the first round more then enough to clear out the front rank then the corsairs get to attack 5 from the champion in the unit and 4 for each of the others!! The battle standard bearer will have a beastmans scourge, shield, heavy armour, sea dragon cloak. he'll have 6 attacks at str 4 ap which will also shred. It'll be somewhat of a expensive unit but it would be just kool to see!!

On the ASF vs. Hatred debate goes, I really think they balance each other out. The high elves will get to strike first, but with the almost identical weapon skills they will only be hitting about half of the time, and killing about half of that. that leaves fewer models to strike back, but with hatred they get to re-roll their misses. seems pretty balanced to me. I really don't think one out weighs the other.

I rally like the Re-roll failed panic tests for the High elves. this has saved me several times against the dark kin from naggaroth.

A really good way to get swing the ASF/Hatred balance is to give a unit the standard of balance. this will eliminate the hatred to any DE unit touching them as well as taking away frenzy and making both units immune to Psychology. bring a mage and hope he gets Vauls Unmaking and send him looking for the ASF banner.

Even the Magic phase balances out for these two armies. the DE are masters of magic offense, but the HE are equally good at magic defense. with the +1 to dispel and the extra spell Drain Magic, and the DE spell to gain extra power dice the magic phase should be fairly balanced if played right.

Remembering they are fighting each other

Spears:

High Elf:
Pros:
3 ranks of fighty goodness to the front, 7 wide + champ = 22 attacks. 11 hits, 6 wounds 4 dead. Also ensures that you are getting a decent number of attacks if an assassin has massacred the front rank.
ASF
Only need 2 core in a 2000pt HE army
Immune to panic (or is it reroll?, don't have book with me ATM) vs DEs

Cons:
Cost more so tend to run 1 unit of 20-24 models in an army.

DE:
Pros:
Hatred. Going up against the HE spears 5 wide. Champ + 5 get to fight back = 7 attacks, 4 hit, hatred + 1 hit for 5/7. Be generous and say 3 wounds, 2 dead HEs.
Cheap: allows multiple smaller units to help with flanking, table quarters etc.
Assassin can hide here.

Cons:
2 ranks of fighters to front (only a con vs HEs)
Repeater x-bows are probably better.

Well, that's if the DE charged. Assume the HE charged (both DE and HE are seven wide, but assume DE have one less rank, to get the points for the inevitable assassin: so, 21 HE v. 14 DE + assassin):

Assassin gets 7 WS 9 att: 4 hits, reroll gives +1: 5 hits. Wounds on 2: 4 wounds. 4 HE die.

Then 3 HE attacks, 1.5 hit, .75 wound, probably does not save: statistically, DE lose 0.5 models (assume 1).

DE attack back with 13 attacks (spears + champion) = 6.5 hits, reroll for hatred gives +3.25 more hits, total 9.75 hits. Assume 5 wounds, killing 3-4 HE.

HE lose combat by 5-6. Ouch! Let's assume they pass their Ld 3-4 check and stand.

Next round: there are now 14 HE v. 13 DE + assassin.

Assassin gets 7 WS 9 att: 4 hits, reroll gives +1: 5 hits. Wounds on 2: 4 wounds. 4 HE die.

Then 10 HE attacks, 5 hit, 2.5 wound, 2 DE fail armor and die.

DE attack back with 11 attacks (spears + champion) = 5.5 hits, reroll for Eternal hatred gives +2.75 more hits, total 8.25 hits. This is 4 wounds, killing 3 HE.

HE lose by 4. Rinse and repeat.

That's looking at the core spearmen choice. Obviously on that level, the HE lose. They must rely on their elites instead. I'ld be interested in how people think the core DE spearmen unit stands up to the HE elites, I still think it's a bad matchup for the HE. Assassins make the difference, it's like having an extra three characters in your army.

@Antonin - HE spears attack with +1 ranks than normal, so they have 2 ranks fighting on the charge. You also fail to account for a champion in the HE spears unit.

The hydra is the answer against HE spearmen!! Hitting on 4's and wounding on 6's not much gonna happen there to the hydra plus is 4+ scaly sking and regen problem solved

@Antonin:

I don't get why you think the HE charged. They've got ASF and better shooting/magic. There's every reason to presume that the DE spearmen will be charging. I've never seen HE spearmen charge a character led unit. In a spearmen on spearmen unit with one side having spears the side with less shooting is going to charge. In elf on elf that'll be the side that doesn't have to waste ~150 points on an assassin in every unit.

It's moot, though, because the HE would flee anyway. The notion that elf battles will become block on block grinding is fundementally at odds with the current tournament scene.

Big spear units simply don't exist. You spend min points on core (for elves that means small units of shooters) then you spend max points on the good stuff.

The decision will be brough about by the schtick each side has chosen.

Blackguard DS will fail vs. fleeing and shooting
High Elf magic heavy will fail vs. Ring of Hotek
DE Blitz vs. HE blitz goes HE way, due to better Lord + Dragon and better cav. I think that's the decisive point.

Nothing in HE can beat up the Blackguard w/Lord + BSB + Assassin + whatever, but that unit will never do anything. High Elf blitzers will crush the shooting units and win by being in table quarters. If the DE didn't concentrate their forces they lose because the HE dragon knights are better than cold one knights, the HE Lord on Dragon is better than their lord on dragon and there isn't an answer to Tyrion in their whole book. Hydras provide a ray of light in this bleak outlook, but they reduce your bolt throwers, and hence your ability to shoot down the dragon once it shows itself.

nieto666 wrote:The hydra is the answer against HE spearmen!! Hitting on 4's and wounding on 6's not much gonna happen there to the hydra plus is 4+ scaly sking and regen problem solved

isn't that like saying a 500 lb bomb is the answer against cockroaches?

Jin wrote:@Antonin - HE spears attack with +1 ranks than normal, so they have 2 ranks fighting on the charge. You also fail to account for a champion in the HE spears unit.

They get to use their spears when they charge? I was not aware of that. Otherwise, I did take into account the extra rank (i.e. fight in three ranks on turns they have not charged.)

You're right, I didn't account for that additional attack from the HE champion. It does not make a significant difference, though.

40kenthusiast wrote:@Antonin:
Big spear units simply don't exist. You spend min points on core (for elves that means small units of shooters) then you spend max points on the good stuff.

Waagh_Gonads used the big block of HE spearmen (22 of them) as an example. I was pointing out how a big block of HE spearmen will lose against their counterpart. I agree with you - what I was saying is that HE have to go to their elites, they have no choice. DE on the other hand can use their spearmen effectively.

Antonin wrote:

Jin wrote:@Antonin - HE spears attack with +1 ranks than normal, so they have 2 ranks fighting on the charge. You also fail to account for a champion in the HE spears unit.

They get to use their spears when they charge? I was not aware of that. Otherwise, I did take into account the extra rank (i.e. fight in three ranks on turns they have not charged.)

You're right, I didn't account for that additional attack from the HE champion. It does not make a significant difference, though.

The wording is that they get to fight with one extra rank than normal spears. Spears let you normally attack with an extra rank or 1 rank on the charge. High Elf spears ergo fight with 3 ranks normal, 2 ranks on the charge. Your example neglects 7 (8 including champion) attacks from the HE's. Triples the number of attacks they get by your numbers on the charge. Big difference.

This matchup really comes down on the side of dark elves due to a couple of items.
The ring of no magic, the trinket of you cant kill me, and the banner of my ASF trumps your ASF.
Assassins and hydras also play a role in this but not as much (they are pretty balanced for their cost)

High elves come in two variaties
Star dragon or high magic.
If they have high magic then the ring really cripples the high elves. If it is on a unit champ it can be assassinated but it isnt always easy without losing some expensive models.
This allows the dark elves to skimp on their magic defence (scroll caddy is usually enough) because of the 12 bubble of "cant cast that"

The ASF banner is almost always in either a unit of black guard or cold ones. Without magic to unmake the banner the black guard are nigh unkillable for the high elves (shooting only, no combat unit in the elven army will win here).

The final problem is dark elf combat chars. They are far superior to their high elf counterparts. This is because of avaliable of good (1+ and 0+) armor saves and ward saves. The only exception is the elf lord on a star dragon who will reign death on any dark elf out there.


High elf units on the other hand will destroy dark elf units. ASF and good elite status (or the 15 spear attack) will do a number on dark elf infantry (baring the ASF black guard who are unkillable).

So what the game comes down to is as i said, a small selection of magic items.
As these items are always present the high elf army will have to get arround a couple of them and just live with others.

If it is a dragon lord then the ring can be ignored (all magic goes against flanking units or isnt cast). The unkillable char must be left fighting spears (and all chars avoided until he is identified). And the ASF black guard shot to death with bolt throwers then flank charged by the dragon who might be able to slowly grind them down (it isnt a sure thing though).

If the high elf lord is a mage lord then the ring must be killed. If it is on a champion he can be killed out by charging lion chariots or dragon princes. If not then this becomes more difficult. After that the ASF banner can be dispelled and the black guard will die to swordmasters in quick time. The unkillable lord will meet the same fate once his trinket is gone.

I dunno cypher, reading your analysis wouldn't it come down on the high elf side? You didn't mention a DE counter for the Dragon/Lord combo.

Also, I know folks don't like Special Characters, but Tyrion is out there and he shows up at tournaments. There isn't a DE counter to him, he's as tough as the invincible dreadlord, but hits like a truck. When you rely on the ASF blackguard w/character and assassin it's a concern that there's a guy who can hide from bolt throwers in units, then jump 20" out and beat up anyone who takes his challenge.

U can counter the star dragon/lord combo with a assassin with the venom blade. It'll be all his points for the gifts of khaine but if wounded make a toughness test on 2d6 or die! disgusting you can still give him more attacks with banners and the cauldron of blood to help secure some successful hits!! This is the answer ur looking for cheesy yes effective dont know yet havent give it a go.

I dunno cypher, reading your analysis wouldn't it come down on the high elf side? You didn't mention a DE counter for the Dragon/Lord combo.

The unkillable lord will laugh at the dragon lord (and not die). The dragon lord will then run away from combat res. An assassin can also killing blow the char off the dragon or kill the dragon but that isnt a sure thing and he will die afterwords. A dark elf with executioner will easily dispatch the dragon but only if he wins the roll off against the char (completely random)

And no char with 4 attacks and no rerolls will ever be described as hitting like a truck.
The unkillable lord will beat him and in a challenge he will do an average of 2 wounds. He will run from combat res prety easily after that. He is support, no more.

Not saying it comes down to one side or the other just comes down to how well the dark elf uses those few items and the high elf gets around them.

Dark Elves have quite a bit over the High Elves:

Cheap Core Harpies mean that HE RBT's can be taken care of fairly effectively.

RxB Warriors >> HE Archers. DE shooting can easily suppress or neutralize HE shooting.

In terms of Cav, I'd say Dragon Princes outclass Cold One Knights; ditto on the Chariots, generally. Though in a prolonged fight (post charge) the DE have the advantage.

Still I wouldn't discount the CoK's completely since the DE do bait & flee far better than the HE do thanks again to Core Harpies and Core Dark Riders.

The Hydra is like a plate of pure Win with a side of Awesome Sauce.

The ring shuts down HE magic pretty effectively since most of it is offensive in nature, the best spells will require at least 3 dice to cast (44% chance of miscast vs. the Ring). It also completely neutralizes anyone who's built an army with the Book of Hoeth/Teclis (so much so that I'm guessing that build will fall out of favor thanks to the DE's popularity.

ASF Black Guard will trump any variant of the Elite HE Infantry.

Really what the HE have going for them is the Star Dragon being slowed strong and is out and out better than the DE dragon. The only counters the DE have to that are assassins with Manbane+Rending Star's probably hiding in shade units to run around and pepper the big guy. Other than that or some lucky RBT shots the DE will struggle to deal with it unless they're running their lord on a horse w/ the usual "you can't kill me" kit, who can then probably hold up the Lord on Star Dragon indefinitely and probably whittle the dragon down a bit over a game thanks to always being S6 and always re-rolling attacks.

I'm in agreement with cypher and Voodoo Boyz.

While some individual units in the HE list are better than their DE counter-parts, the DE generally have more effective and deadlier unit/magic combos that the High Elves just can't match.

Add to that the general access to better magic items (I'm looking at the DE magic armors - none seem worthless), and they have much more survivable characters to boot.

Also, (having just looked through the DE book): wow, didn't realize how much better DE RxB warriors are than archers. Nastier shooting + light armor for 1 point less? What the hell?

Jin wrote:
Also, (having just looked through the DE book): wow, didn't realize how much better DE RxB warriors are than archers. Nastier shooting + light armor for 1 point less? What the hell?

"Well they don't pay for ASF...."

Now to be fair, ASF on archers is arguably good since an opponent can't throw things like Harpies (or potentially Furies) directly at them and be confident that they will beat them in combat.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:

Jin wrote:
Also, (having just looked through the DE book): wow, didn't realize how much better DE RxB warriors are than archers. Nastier shooting + light armor for 1 point less? What the hell?

"Well they don't pay for ASF...."

Now to be fair, ASF on archers is arguably good since an opponent can't throw things like Harpies (or potentially Furies) directly at them and be confident that they will beat them in combat.

Granted. Though with their RxB's and armor and Hatred, DE RxB warriors are much likelier to cause more casualties and survive CC than HE archers.