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So I was talking to my CSM buddy about what Icons he should take... wtf?
He was saying that CSM Icons cost like 10-20 pts?

My daemons who almost require these Icons spend 25 pts a pop, with no other beneficial upgrades.

So should they be cheaper or should they give upgrades at their point cost?

Please correct me if my friend is wrong but in general it seems CSM get more out of something they don't really understand.

Daemon icons are extremely useful in a daemon army. A guaranteed safe drop for a 235 point model is well worth 25 points. A teleport homer is 15 points and it can be used by three units max in a C:SM list. Every other unit in a C: Daemons list can use that Icon. More utility, more points.

Saving a 235 pt model/squad is what Daemons are constantly worrying about. If my first turn drop goes bad, I can basically lose turn 1. It happens way too often.

In an army that is forced to Deep strike entirely, these kind of things should be just a free upgrade that your squads should just count as.

Also, since only half my army is on the table first turn (If I'm lucky), the enemy can fire all they have into a squad i spent 25 pts on just to give an upgrade that my army severely requires. They go dead, my army is just dropping 1-2 units a turn getting shot up on arrival. At very least I should be able to assult the turn I come in, maybe not the first wave but the reserves should.

Obviously an icon in a daemon army has greater utility since you have to deep strike your entire army.

Icons don't add much to a CSM army.

Nenya97 wrote:Saving a 235 pt model/squad is what Daemons are constantly worrying about. If my first turn drop goes bad, I can basically lose turn 1. It happens way too often.

In an army that is forced to Deep strike entirely, these kind of things should be just a free upgrade that your squads should just count as.

Also, since only half my army is on the table first turn (If I'm lucky), the enemy can fire all they have into a squad i spent 25 pts on just to give an upgrade that my army severely requires. They go dead, my army is just dropping 1-2 units a turn getting shot up on arrival. At very least I should be able to assult the turn I come in, maybe not the first wave but the reserves should.

One half of your army is more than capable of taking on 2/3's of most armies. Remember the outcry when daemons first came out about how overpowered some of the units are? It's because they have to sit and spin for a turn.

Why should an upgrade that is extremely useful be free? Should marine sgts be given free powerfist?

Greater utility ? We can't even use them the first turn we come in. Ff we could i would say so, but with out it the daemons only get it for 3 or 4 units too.

Not even counting with half the army starting off the table it is not much of a problem to pick off the icon unit because they don't have to worry about half are army.

Assuming we get a wave with a icon in it and it dose not die coming in.

At some point yes daemons need it more but they also risk a lot more for it.

I pick option 3 to leave things alone.

Daemons are fine. They don't need changing.

Valhallan42nd wrote:
One half of your army is more than capable of taking on 2/3's of most armies. Remember the outcry when daemons first came out about how overpowered some of the units are? It's because they have to sit and spin for a turn.

Why should an upgrade that is extremely useful be free? Should marine sgts be given free powerfist?

Most Daemon units have a 5+ invuln and that's it. They might have some nifty offensive options (nifty being as close to broken as I'll say considering their defense), but they also get screwed on deployment. If your marine seargent didn't come with a CCW that might be a closer comparison.

I admit turns 1 and 2 suck for Daemons. They really don't have the stability that an army needs to always be consistent. It seems like if not one or two cheap icon upgrades on specific units, they'd get something that lets them re-roll reserves rolls. The real question for me is what the heck is up with their saves and majority horrible-WS? The whole list seems wacky to me. Just because you can take huge, over-priced MCs doesn't make up for it. Whatevs.

Most Daemon units only need to survive 1 turn of enemy shooting before the fighting starts. They're fine.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:

Valhallan42nd wrote:
One half of your army is more than capable of taking on 2/3's of most armies. Remember the outcry when daemons first came out about how overpowered some of the units are? It's because they have to sit and spin for a turn.

Why should an upgrade that is extremely useful be free? Should marine sgts be given free powerfist?

Most Daemon units have a 5+ invuln and that's it. They might have some nifty offensive options (nifty being as close to broken as I'll say considering their defense), but they also get screwed on deployment. If your marine seargent didn't come with a CCW that might be a closer comparison.

I admit turns 1 and 2 suck for Daemons. They really don't have the stability that an army needs to always be consistent. It seems like if not one or two cheap icon upgrades on specific units, they'd get something that lets them re-roll reserves rolls. The real question for me is what the heck is up with their saves and majority horrible-WS? The whole list seems wacky to me. Just because you can take huge, over-priced MCs doesn't make up for it. Whatevs.

There are two lists currently making the "Broken List" rant, and daemons are one of them.

The daemon list was designed to be, well, chaotic and risky to use. If you want to reduce the risk inherant in the list, you have to pay for that, and as the OP posted, he needs them. Supply and demand. If you want something, expect to pay for it. If you need it, expect to pay even more for it. I play daemons, I use icons, and I'm glad they do what they do, and yes, they're worth every point.

Valhallan42nd wrote:

Nenya97 wrote:

One half of your army is more than capable of taking on 2/3's of most armies.

Unfortunately they start with 3/3's of there army and on turn two we are lucky to have half a army.

I love Icon with Daemons for that afety cusion, more then once I scattered 11 to 12 inches and lost a daemon prince, or 20 bloodletters. It sucks when you lose something that fast. I think the points are worth it. Shoot I'd pay 50 to 100 pts to be able to charge on entering play, but that would make things insanely lop sided. lol.

Icons are worth waaaay more to demons than CSMs. Personally, I don't think they're over costed in the least.

This weekend I was helping a buddy of mine play-test his new list. (A particularly nasty one including both Skarbrand and Fateweaver) He did not take any icons - preferring to trust his fate to the whim of the Chaos gods.

2nd turn: Skarbrand and a large unit of plaguebearers come in from reserve, promptly mishap and are destroyed.

...we called the game shortly after that.

EDITS: Argh...Typos.

deviant cadaver wrote:

Valhallan42nd wrote:
One half of your army is more than capable of taking on 2/3's of most armies.

Unfortunately they start with 3/3's of there army and on turn two we are lucky to have half a army.

Daemons are a top tier army at this point. If you're not winning with daemons, then I guess you're not using the correct strategies.

What? "Use Tactics!"

I think he needs more cookie cutter.

JohnHwangDD wrote:What? "Use Tactics!"

I think he needs more cookie cutter.

Redundancy of powerful-multiwound models does tend to work very well in this game. Cowboy up and what not.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Most Daemon units only need to survive 1 turn of enemy shooting before the fighting starts. They're fine.

I disagree that they are fine but not on a gaming perspective. To veer maddengly into OT like a crazed soccer mom talking on a cellphone, they really needed some dirt cheap generac "demon" unit with minimal capacities but maximum conversion potential. Some 5 o 6 point creature with human stats, specifally noted in the fluff as being-any squishy conction emotion may create. it would have been so cool. When you think demon you often think ravening teeming hordes of icky badness coming from the warp. With the point costs of the demon codex, that doesn't happen.

If Daemons were GEQ-based (S3 T3 A2 Fearless), then you could start at 5 or 6 pts, add Marks, and still field hordes, like Orks.

But if you want chromey S4 T4 Marked units (which is what the Chaos guys wanted), then nope, not gonna be cheap and hordey.