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All righty, so far with this list I've lost to SM many times, but wiped Eldar and Orks. I thinks it's a good list, but I am looking to improve.

HQ) Heroic Senior Officer, standard bearer, medic, melta gun, and master vox.
HQ)Yarrick

Elites)1x 10 man ratling squad
1x 10 man stormtroopers with vet sgt. who has the honorifica. 2 meltas. Infiltrate and mounted in chimera.
1x 10 man stormtroopers with vet sgt. 2 plasma guns. Infiltrate.

Troops)1 Platoon with Junior officer and medic. Mainly lasguns.
Platoons=5 squads with Grenade Launchers and voxes and lascannons
1 Platoon with junior officer and standard. Mainly CC weapons and pistols.
Platoons=5 squads with flamers and voxes and autocannons.

Fast)1 squadron of Sentinels with 2 cadian pattern(autocannons and Armoured crew) and 1 mars pattern(multi laser)
2 Hellhounds with extra armor

Heavy) 1 Basilisk with indirect fire upgrade.
1 LR with lascannon hull, heavy bolter sponsons, extra armor, track guards.
1 LR Demolisher with hull lascannon, sponson plasma cannons, extra armor, track guards.

Doctrines are: Sharpshooters and Carapace armor.

-an armoured fist squad or 2 to provide flexible mobility for your guard troops and a quick pinch shot blocker/absorber if your in trouble
- more guardsmen: you can never have enough
- more special weapons such as plasma and melta so you can change your guard army to deal with MEQS
- if your not aming for a specific army you can spend the extra points on doctrines such as camoline and close order drill. they're very cheap and effective.

Look, I'm no master strategist or anything, but your list is eye-bleedingly bad. I've come up with 15 basic problems with your list that I think most IG players will agree with.

While you certainly don't need to make all of these changes, any one is a good place to start in building a harder list. (Pay particular attention to #6, which is actually an illegal option you've chosen.)


1) Yarrick. I love his fluff, but he's not worth the points you pay. At all. Compare him to, for example, Jarran Kell. For 21 points less than Yarrick, Kell is almost as good in Close Combat, and has a 12" LD 8 with re-roll bubble from the "Leadership" rule that Yarrick somehow lacks. Oh, and you get Creed (and his Ld 10 bubble!) thrown in for free.

2) Carapace Armor. Costs twice as much as "Camoline," but is half as useful. You're bleeding away hundreds of points on this nearly-useless doctrine.

3) Sharpshooters. This doctrine can be worthwhile, but is not worthwhile for any of your squads as you currently have them configured.

4) Drop Troopers. It's free, it's great, and you don't have it.

5) Close Order Drill. It's free, it's good, and you don't have it.

6) Standard Bearer. You've got one in a platoon HQ. This is illegal. (page 39, "Standard Bearer" rules.)

7) Medics. Are widely seen as not being worth their points.

8) Vox Casters. Are also widely seen as not being worth their points.

9) Stormtroopers. They're not bad per se, but you're paying a 31 point per squad premium over Veterans who fill the same role. (And the Veterans have a slot for an extra assault weapon!)

10) Platoon HQs. You should either throw 4x assault weapons into the PHQ squad and use them aggressivley, or else throw a single heavy weapon in and hold them back. Equipping them with pistols and CCWs is just pointless.

11) Assault weapon placement. Grenade Launchers are much better paired with autocannons than lascannons. Similarly, multiple flamers can be brutal in mobile squads. A single flamer is much less useful, especially when paired with a static autocannon.

12) Assault Weapon loadout. Under the current rules grenade launchers are vastly inferior to all other weapon choices. Try placing some plasma guns in line infantry squads.

13) Sentinels. Armored Crew compartments are (currently) overpriced. Mixing weapons is not ideal. (Although the autocannon and multilaser are pretty similar, so you can probably get away with it.)

14) Leman Russ. Mixing HB sponsons with a lascannon is a poor choice, since you can't split fire and the weapons are designed for very different targets. Track Guards are a terrible purchase for the tank, since the current missions contain no downside for ending a game "immobilized."

mmm....... you said 15 basic problem theres only 14, but I agree with just about all of them.

Wait till the new codex.

Dave47 although I see where your coming from on #14, i think it's a good idea to have a lascannon thrown in the hull, incase the turret is destroyed or maybe you need the AP2 for something.

looks good but make sure they die as they run at you

Jarran wrote:Dave47 although I see where your coming from on #14, i think it's a good idea to have a lascannon thrown in the hull, incase the turret is destroyed or maybe you need the AP2 for something.

If you want a "Plan B" for a weapon destroyed, you have four options:

1) Hull HB: Move 6" and shoot the HB, or move 12" and ram / tank shock. (Free!)
2) Hull LC: Move 6" and shoot the LC, or move 12" and ram / tank shock. (+10 points)
3) 3x HB: Stay still and throw down 9 HB shots, or move 6" and shoot one HB, or move 12" and ram / tank shock. (+10 points)
4) 2x HB and 1x LC: Stay still and throw down 6 HB shots and a LC shot, or move 6" and shoot one weapon, or move 12" and ram / tank shock. (+20 points)

Option one still leaves you with something to do. And if option one doesn't look adequate, option 2 and 3 are 10 points cheaper than option 4, and are just as effective. You don't buy a Lascannon for the AP, you buy it for the Strength. (A heavy bolter is better at killing Terminators than a lascannon.) If you're shooting at high armor vehicles, the 2 HB sponsons will be wasted. Don't buy things that you don't plan to use.

A 3x HB tank is a better tank than a LC / 2x HB tank, and costs 10 points less.

Well the reason I have track guards is that termies usually deepstrike and immobilize my Leman Russ on my side of the table.

Sharpshooters has benefited me nearly 50% of the time(allowed me to reroll a 1 that killed an avatar with a laspistol once). Thanks for the advice, but I'm gonna keep this.

The only units I have in cover are normally my ratlings and snipers. My infantry are normally not in cover. I get what your saying and I'll give it a go though especially in city fight.

I forgot to write that I take close order drill almost automatically, but doesn't anyone else?

Personally, the CCW command squad is there for fun actually, I love assaulting the enemy with IG, its fun to see their faces.

I will try the vets and replacing my GL with heavier weapons.

The lascannon is for my turret should it get ripped off though, it has happened 2x to me while facing Tau. Also S7 doesn't pierce Land Raider armor unless I roll a 7, which is admittedly hard. I like Yarrick or fluff reasons, I know he kind of... well does blow, but hes fun to have.

I fixed that standard bearer, but isn't drop troops 1 pt per model? I tried it once and it didn't turn out too well.

I should've added that I prefer sitting back and letting them rush at me besides my flanking stormtroopers. I'm also looking at being able to lay down pie plates against nid and ork hordes while being able to take out SM and CSM.

Oh and if I remove my track guards, should I add on hunter killer missiles?

Thanks for continued advice.

halonachos wrote:Well the reason I have track guards is that termies usually deepstrike and immobilize my Leman Russ on my side of the table.

Pretty poor reasoning. Wasting the points in fear of that happening robs you. 1, the odds are so so that will happen and two...what if no DS termies?

Sharpshooters has benefited me nearly 50% of the time(allowed me to reroll a 1 that killed an avatar with a laspistol once). Thanks for the advice, but I'm gonna keep this.

Your call. You just have had better luck than others...

The only units I have in cover are normally my ratlings and snipers. My infantry are normally not in cover. I get what your saying and I'll give it a go though especially in city fight.

This speaks more to poor tactics rather than army design. My God, man, use the cover whenever you can! The Imperium gives your cardboard for armor!

Personally, the CCW command squad is there for fun actually, I love assaulting the enemy with IG, its fun to see their faces.

Fluff is fun but you asked them to eval and in evaluation this is hap-hazard. Say hi to the biker nobz at your next tournament for me...

I fixed that standard bearer, but isn't drop troops 1 pt per model? I tried it once and it didn't turn out too well.

Drop guard is about finesse.

I should've added that I prefer sitting back and letting them rush at me besides my flanking stormtroopers. I'm also looking at being able to lay down pie plates against nid and ork hordes while being able to take out SM and CSM.

But you are screwed in a multiple objectives game...

Oh and if I remove my track guards, should I add on hunter killer missiles?

Oh God, no. Shore up the points for more options.

Are you actually serious about this list? There is alot of good advice here that it seems like you are ignoring. This list is worse than bad, it's just worse.

110 guardsmen = good but having the all equipped with autocannons, plasma guns and camoline is better.

Vox's, medics and Carapice must go. this will save you at least 300 points that you can use for more platoons.

This reminds me of my first couple lists. It's appalingly bad but with a few tweaks it will be just fine. Drop troops is your best friend by the way, well, other than the camo.

Firstly I want to say that I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm ignoring advice, and yes this is my first list, I've tried it with drop troops in a second list, and I had a third list with Xeno hunters instead of sharpshooters. They didn't perform well and so I went back to my first list.

Mickhedd wrote:

This speaks more to poor tactics rather than army design. My God, man, use the cover whenever you can! The Imperium gives your cardboard for armor!

Well that's why I gave them plastic armor!

Mickhedd wrote:Fluff is fun but you asked them to eval and in evaluation this is hap-hazard. Say hi to the biker nobz at your next tournament for me...

Sorry, I've never played in a tournament and probably never will, GW ignores my area and rogue trader has come around only twice, once when I didn't play and once when I only had a Leman Russ and 30 infantry to my name.

Mickhedd wrote:Drop guard is about finesse.

The IG have finesse


I'll post my new list soon and have that picked apart for fun and thankyou for the help, hopefully I won't skip over most of what was said.

halonachos wrote:

Mickhedd wrote:Drop guard is about finesse.

The IG have finesse

Drop guard is about using them to deliver strategic firepower and overwhelm. Where and what to drop comes into play. Weapon choices, etc make or break drop guard. Also, you need to learn to navigate terrain since I've seen many a drop guard army impale itself on trees on the way down.

HQ) Heroic Senior Officer, standard bearer, melta gun, plasma gun, and master vox.
HQ)Heroic Senior Officer, 2x plasma guns, master vox.

Ensures Ld 9 to all guardsmen no matter location and two in case one gets wiped out.

Elites)1x 10 man ratling squad
1x 10 man stormtroopers with vet sgt. who has the honorifica. 2 meltas. Infiltrate and mounted in chimera.
1x 10 man stormtroopers with vet sgt. 2 plasma guns. Infiltrate.

Troops)1 Platoon with Junior officer. Mainly lasguns.
Platoons=5 squads with Plasma Guns and voxes and autocannons.
1 Platoon with junior officer. Mainly CC weapons and pistols.
Platoons=5 squads with flamers and voxes and autocannons.

Fast)1 squadron of Sentinels with 2 cadian pattern(autocannons) and 1 mars pattern(multi laser)
2 Hellhounds with extra armor

Heavy) 1 Basilisk with indirect fire upgrade.
1 LR with lascannon hull, heavy bolter sponsons, extra armor.
1 LR Demolisher with hull lascannon, sponson plasma cannons, extra armor.

Doctrines are: Mechanized, drop troops, close order drill.(Joking)
Real doctrines are: Drop troops, close order drill, and carapace armor.

An aside question though; it doesn't say, but does xeno-fighters apply to Tau or necrons? I've always had questions about this.

xeno fighters is trash. why not take iron dicipline?

why gove the honor to the stormy sgt? he dosen't even have a power sword and his squad is a throw away in any event...

The infiltrating squad has the plasma and not the melta?

Carapice still costs too much. If you REALLY want tougher troops do what I do and take the grenadiers doctrine and use 30 stormys as 3 troops choices. targeters, nades, 4+ save, bs4...

you might try the light infantry doctrine to infiltrate a platoon of reg guardsmen as well.

I have two stormtroopers with infiltrate, the one squad with the chimera confers the infiltrate rule to the chimera and they have meltas.

I would get grenadiers if one thing is true, can I get multiple troop choices of 0-3 stormtroopers. For example can I get 6 stormtroopers for two troop choices?

The melta stormies have the honorifica because I estimate that they'll run into enemy units, both stormies vets. have power weapons(sorry). Also, it increases the Ld to 9.

I may also replace drop troops with iron discipline.

This list is definitely an improvement. All of my old suggestions still stand, but I'll assume you're aware of them, and move on to new comments:

-You've made an (easy to make) mistake: The HQ platoon is a "1" choice, not a "1+" choice, so you can only have one IG command squad in an army. If you want more than one LD 9 (or 10) bubble, you need to use Creed and Kell, or else use some Commissars. Neither choice is great, but Creed and Kell are a better buy than the Commissars. But unless you're playing an Apocalypse-sized game, you should be able to get away with one LD bubble in a static gunline army.

-Your army is very short on lascannons and melta guns. This is a big problem. Either throw in one (or more!) Deep Striking Veteran Squads with 3x Meltas, or else throw in some 3x LC anti-tank squads.

-Regarding Camoline, I'll expand on my previous comment: You don't need to use terrain to benefit from Camoline. You can make your own cover! Camoline turns the 4+ "shooting through a unit" save into a 3+ save. (2+ if you go to ground to hold an objective!) This let's you keep small squads (HQ, AT, FS, and static veterans) screened by your 10-man squads. I don't view Camoline as essential, but I view it as worlds better than Carapace.

But wouldn't my opponent guess that this is my tactic and then fire at my front row and then move on to my rear while using ordnance to tear my rear a new one? I also suffer from Terminator deep striking behind my lines.

Sorry about that HQ thing, but I am thinking Schaeffer and last chancers armed with meltas for my other troop and HQ choices.
Its about 398 points for Schaeffer, Kage, 14 Last chancers(upgraded to specialists) and armed with meltas.
Looking to add 2 lascannons per platoon so 3 autocannons and 2 lascannons for one platoon. I'll probably switch my autocannons for heavy bolters if I play orks or nids though.

I'll most likely cut the honorifica and my vet sgts and power weapons to get some points saved up.

halonachos wrote:Its about 398 points for Schaeffer, Kage, 14 Last chancers(upgraded to specialists) and armed with meltas.

No. It's not.

Scaeffer: 75 Points.
Kage: 35 points.
Last Chancer: 11 points .
Specialist upgrade: 5 points.
Meltagun upgrage: 10 points.

75 + 35 + 14*(11+10+5) = 474 points.

So, for 474 points you get a mediocre character, a crappy character, and 14 BS 4 melta guns that can be split into up to 5 squads. Or you can split your two platoons of five squads into five platoons of two squads, and take an extra 3x Platoon HQs, with 4 meltas each. Then add a sixth platoon HQ with 4x meltas for 80 more points, and two squads of ten guardsmen with Heavy Bolter and Plasma Rifle.

The total cost of these additions is 480 points. So, you're faced with a choice between:

-16 T3 models and 14 BS 4 Meltaguns for 474 points, or
-40 T3 models, 16 BS 3 meltaguns, 2 BS 3 plasma rifles, and 2 BS 3 heavy bolters for 480 points.

The Last Chancers obviously have some advantages, but on balance I think they're just too expensive compared to the alternatives.

You also forgot last chancers get deep strike and count as scoring units in small easy to hide bundles.

last chancers are the way to go, take a demo charge or two however and be prepared not to use them in the new book

1: Last Chancers are uniformly overpriced. BS4 special weapons are not worth the minimum 23 points they cost with Schaeffer. Infiltrate/Deep Strike or no, these are one shot weapons.

2: Carapace armor: wasted points. A minimum baseline infantry platoon with carapace costs 220 points for 25 men - the same price as 35.

3: Sharpshooters: also basically useless. 10 points per infantry unit. Infantry keyword is only attached to troops choices. Save the points for another unit since it can't help your heavy platoons.

4: Infiltrate or a Chimera. Not both.

5: Voxes: 65 points wasted. Average roll on 2d6 is 7. Guard LD is 7. If a squad breaks discard it and move another forward.

6: Lascannons as backup on a LR cost the same as 3 HB. Leave armor cracking to your units, or HQ where you can deliver more firepower downrange.

7: So you're blowing 10+6+25+weapons to make a sergeant into an aspect warrior with extra attacks? Honorifica Imperialis is just taking up points you could be distributing around for further weapon upgrades.

8:If you're going with Drop Troops, a unit of hardened Veterans might be a more cost effective way to deliver 3 meltas and a lascannon.

9: Demolishers are extremely likely to get engaged in melee. if you *must* give it sponsons, Heavy flamers are more likely to get a return on their points. If you must be plasma happy, try an Executioner.

10: Xeno fighters are Orks, Eldar (all sorts), or Tyranids...but why in the Emperor's name are you getting in melee with races that are a: higher initiative, and b: infinitely superior at HTH?

1) How are last chancers "one shot weapons"?
2)How is carapace useless if there is no cover around and I'm against SM, with Ap5 weapons.
3)I have NO heavy platoons they're only attached to my squads and the rules say that any unit with 1(one) BS3 model may take it and it doesn't apply only to; Plasma, Meltas, and Sniper weapons.
4)Why shouldn't I want to infiltrate a chimera with 6 shots?
5)I don't roll average rolls and I would rather keep half a squad at half victory points than give the enemy full victory points.
6)IG infantry suck and aren't near my tank to give it support.
7)Said I was taking honorifica off and I want the power weapons.
8) The purpose of the Stormtroopers is that they can move and shoot, I see there's an extra assault weapon, but Stormtroopers have 4+ armor and I would be wasting points on a lascannon for them.
9)I only play normal games and I can't get the executioner yet, the heavy flamers is a decent idea if I was against a horde army.
10) I was asking if it could be applied against Tau, I mean, it would help against said "superior" HTH units, but orks at a lower initiative as are most Tyranids. Both of those often end up in HTH combat so it is impossible to avoid.

Sorry oldrogue, but that really didn't help unless you can elaborate more.
Thanks to everyone(including oldrogue) though.

glowgos wrote:You also forgot last chancers get deep strike and count as scoring units in small easy to hide bundles.

No, I'm well aware of that. You know what else can Deep Strike, and is a scoring unit in small easy to hide bundles? Platoon HQs.

last chancers are the way to go, take a demo charge or two however and be prepared not to use them in the new book

Aha! Now this is something I forgot! Demo Charges actually might make Last Chancers a worthwhile unit, as they have the potential to absolutely clean house against Terminators, Obliterators, Broadsides, and other similar threats. The downside is the double scatter risk: First you need a good deep strike roll, and then there's only a 50% chance of landing the template directly on target.

Still, it's an interesting option, and may represent a valid use for the Last Chancers.

I have used last chancers once or twice thanks to Steleks advice and they are total alpha strike that comes hits hard and only needs 1 reserve roll, they are amazing phycological warfare against inexperienced players as well. The BS 4 helps the scatter as well lol

Ok, I'm going to assume that the problem here is one of communication, and try to elaborate on why I believe Oldgrue was trying to get at:

halonachos wrote:1) How are last chancers "one shot weapons"?

We've been talking about deep striking them deep into enemy lines. If you want to land them in cover, you run the risk of losing models from DSing into difficult terrain. A small number of T3 5+ models with meltaguns are a high priority target. They'll draw away enemy fire / assaults, but they shouldn't live to fire twice, unless the game is basically already over.

2)How is carapace useless if there is no cover around and I'm against SM, with Ap5 weapons.

First, you should be using cover. But even ignoring that point, most of the casualties inflicted on IG by Space Marines player come in two forms: Long-range firepower with AP 4+ weapons, or assault. If the Space Marine player is setting up a gun line 24" from you, he's playing into your hands. If he deepstrikes, then those rapid-fire shots suck. But by skipping Carapace, you can buy enough extra units to ensure that your return fire annihilates the deep strikers. I guess if you know you're playing against Tau, Caparace might be worthwhile. But otherwise, it's a broken doctrine. It's overpriced for standard squads, and doubly overpriced for PHQs and AT Squads, which are important units.

3)I have NO heavy platoons they're only attached to my squads and the rules say that any unit with 1(one) BS3 model may take it and it doesn't apply only to; Plasma, Meltas, and Sniper weapons.

Well, actually, "Sharpshooters" does work on meltas, but that's not the point.

Do the math: You're paying 10 points for an extra 1/6th of a shot per weapon, with no improvement to the unit's durability. That's like paying 60 points to double your firepower. If you can keep the squad alive, this is worthwhile for shooty squads that have a lot of heavy weapons: a 3x LC squad is 115 points, so it's worth 10 points for an extra 1/2 of a lascannon. But you wouldn't want to pay the points if the squad had only one lascannon.

5)I don't roll average rolls and I would rather keep half a squad at half victory points than give the enemy full victory points.

Well, unless you've got some cheap dice, you DO roll average rolls. Your claim is especially strange in the context of Leadership rolls. If your dice are rolling bad, you're gonna pass! If they roll high, you should do well enough in shooting that you don't need to worry so much about LD checks. (And this is the first you've mentioned that your local group uses VPs instead of KPs.)

6)IG infantry suck and aren't near my tank to give it support.

We're talking about a gun with a 48" range here. Infantry don't need to be near the tank to "support" it by neutralizing threats to the tank.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Look, sorry about that, but a lot of Oldgrue's points are common knowledge for IG players, which is why I think he didn't really elaborate much. The common knowledge may not be perfect, but it's widely accepted for a reason, and that reason is that it usually works.

I think you've been very resistant to acknowledging any shortcoming in your list, and it's painfully obvious to most IG players that your list is weak. This may not be a problem in your local meta-game, depending on skill level, but I don't think it has ever been possible to win a tournament with a Carapace Armor Sharpshooter IG army that doesn't use Veterans or AT squads, and that doesn't put assault weapons into PHQ squads. In 3rd, 4th, or 5th Ed. this is a weak army.

There's nothing wrong with choosing to play at a disadvantage, but it's annoying to have you claiming that your choices are good ones. A LC + 2 HB Leman Russ is the coolest looking version of that tank, and used to be the fluffiest, and some people use it for those reasons. But nothing short of a change in the rules will make it a "good" choice.

I know my list blows, but some of the help doesn't help me. Like the cover thing, in an average battle there may be 3 or 4 pieces of cover in the middle of the field.

I think that your right, it mainly is my problem for myself. I haven't carried myself in an appropriate manner. One of the things I do is look and criticize, I'm sorry.

When I said bad for Ld, I meant rolling 8-12. Sorry for that. I roll miraculously for shooting and wounding, but horrible for Ld. That's a personal problem though.

I may make two lists though, one for tourneys and one for local gaming.I've seen pictures of tourney matches and they have 400x the amount of cover I'm used to so I'll put cameleoline for that.

I didn't know that meltas worked in sharpshooters though so I'm going to load up more meltas in some of my PHQs and regular squads.

Everyones told me that the Leman Russ with LC and HB sponsons is a horrible sin against god so I can only assume it is so, but unfortunately I have a sentimental attachment to it so it will never leave my list.

If I take Schaeffer though, is it a good idea to have squads of 1 with democharges? When it comes to cover and deep strike though, I usually try to land behind what little cover I can so I have a barrier between my guys and incoming fire, I've seen termies roll their ankles more than a few times due to this. Doesn't damage taken in landing in dangerous terrain ignore saves though?

OK, the last chancers ARE suicide troops they not in it to live there in it to nuke stuff, split the demo charges into each squad so you maximise your fire power.

The idea is there are no more termies to shoot back because they are all dead. id go for 5 demo charges then add plasma or maybe a few melta, drop and enjoy.

You know, I've always wanted suicide guardsmen in my army. But how should I distribute the squads, should I have five squads with 1 Democharge each, or should I place my democharges in squads of 1 and put the remaining demo in a squad of 6 or so?

The way I run demo charges in my unit are to use a special weapon team, drop troops and put two flamers in the unit.

The synergy between the flamers and the demo charge should be obvious; they are both close quarters weapons.

For a mere 57 points, you can drop in close to your target - don't be afraid to get up close and personal. It's a cheap unit, and you need to get all up ons to have the demo charge work. Drop in, hope you're in 6" of something - unload. At that point, they've delivered their payload - you're not going to kill them all, but if it hits it's going to hurt. Most multiwound characters are going to suffer instant death (standard caveats apply), and it chews through any armor save.

It is, however, an erratic way to your payload, and is the most effective at taking out Marines & Equivalents. Against lesser opponents (hordes, etc), it's like using a sledgehammer to put a nail in the wall to hang a picture.

bryantsbears wrote:Against lesser opponents (hordes, etc), it's like using a sledgehammer to put a nail in the wall to hang a picture.

So is that a bad thing or a good thing?