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Hello,
I am making a chaos space marine army, and I was wondering if a bolter would count as a close combat weapon for terminators. The way I see it is the terminator would have a bolter in one hand and a power weapon in the other, would he get +1 attack in close combat or not. And I was wondering the same for combi-guns. I assume that the bolter or combi-gun could be fired one-handed by a terminator same as a marine would fire a bolt pistol one handed, but I am unsure. Thanks for any help offered.

They used to have a rule where characters and certain models could wield 2h weapons as a 1-h weapon, but I think they did away with it.

I'm gonna say no, as I have not seen any mention of it in the rulebook.

Do they have a bolt pistol in their wargear like regular SM?

Billdozer wrote:Hello,
I am making a chaos space marine army, and I was wondering if a bolter would count as a close combat weapon for terminators. The way I see it is the terminator would have a bolter in one hand and a power weapon in the other, would he get +1 attack in close combat or not. And I was wondering the same for combi-guns. I assume that the bolter or combi-gun could be fired one-handed by a terminator same as a marine would fire a bolt pistol one handed, but I am unsure. Thanks for any help offered.

No, Bolters and Combi-bolters are not CCWs. A ranged weapon either has to have the Type "Pistol" or a Special Rule stating that they may be used as a CCW or be equipped to a unit with such a rule(such as Kroot Rifles). Bolters, Combi-bolters, and Terminators don't have any rules allowing it.

Affliktion wrote:They used to have a rule where characters and certain models could wield 2h weapons as a 1-h weapon, but I think they did away with it.

Irrelevant. Something being 1-handed does NOT make it a CCW. The only thing this would help would be if a Codex still used the old Armories which put limits on how many 1-handed and 2-handed weapons you could carry, which the current Chaos book does not have.

Nope...bolters are not a CC weapon.

termi Wargear

termi armor
Power weapon
Twin Linked Bolter

So no it is not considered to be a cc weapon

yes, it is a close combat weapon as per page 42 second paragraph. But, it does not count as an extra close combat weapon because it is considered a two-handed weapon. Only single handed weapons offer an extra close combat attack.

So for chaos termies, I believe only lightning claws offer a +1 attack. I don't have the dex in front of me right know, so I may be wrong.

Edited to read page 42, thanks Marius for pointing that one out, didn't have my glasses on. 7s and 2s...arghhhh...but I see you got it, and everyone makes typos, even you.

padixon wrote:yes, it is a close combat weapon as per page 47 second paragraph. But, it does not count as an extra close combat weapon because it is considered a two-handed weapon. Only single handed weapons offer an extra close combat attack.

Lol, wut?

Seriously, I don't see anything on page 47 backing you up. Combi-Bolters are Rapid-Fire Type Weapons. There is nothing in the rulebook stating whether they are 1-handed or 2-handed and no rule allowing their use in Close Combat anyway.

Platuan4th wrote:

Irrelevant. Something being 1-handed does NOT make it a CCW. The only thing this would help would be if a Codex still used the old Armories which put limits on how many 1-handed and 2-handed weapons you could carry, which the current Chaos book does not have.

I meant as in they could wield it as a pistol, the rule name escapes me at the moment.

AffliKtion wrote:I meant as in they could wield it as a pistol, the rule name escapes me at the moment.

That's because there is no such rule. Unless you're referring to Terminators being Relentless, which allows them to fire Heavy Weapons on the move and allows them CHARGE after shooting a Rapid Fire or Heavy weapon. This is not the same as allowing them to use a ranged weapon in Combat.

Platuan4th wrote:

AffliKtion wrote:I meant as in they could wield it as a pistol, the rule name escapes me at the moment.

That's because there is no such rule. Unless you're referring to Terminators being Relentless, which allows them to fire Heavy Weapons on the move.

When I get home, I'll look it up, I believe it was 4e.

Platuan4th wrote:

padixon wrote:yes, it is a close combat weapon as per page 47 second paragraph. But, it does not count as an extra close combat weapon because it is considered a two-handed weapon. Only single handed weapons offer an extra close combat attack.

Lol, wut?

Seriously, I don't see anything on page 47 backing you up. Combi-Bolters are Rapid-Fire Type Weapons. There is nothing in the rulebook stating whether they are 1-handed or 2-handed and no rule allowing their use in Close Combat anyway.

yep rifle butts are considered close combat weapons, and then again said to be two-handed weapons on the same page under the heading "FIGHTING WITH TWO SINGLE-HANDED WEAPONS".

If you are seriously looking it is the 4th word in on the first sentence of the second paragraph.

AffliKtion wrote:When I get home, I'll look it up, I believe it was 4e.

Then you'd still be wrong, even if you're referring to True Grit, which allows Bolters, but NOT Combi-Bolters, and even then Chaos Terminators never had True Grit, only Plague Marines(my computer's within reaching distance of all my 40K books, so I've been looking these up).

Platuan4th wrote:

AffliKtion wrote:When I get home, I'll look it up, I believe it was 4e.

Then you'd still be wrong, even if you're referring to True Grit, which allows Bolters, but NOT Combi-Bolters, and even then Chaos Terminators never had True Grit, only Plague Marines.

True Grit, there we go.

And you're right bolter != combi-bolter.

page 47 of the 5e rules have nothing about "Fighting with Two Single Handed Weapons"

What you should have said was pg. 42.

If you are going to referance page numbers, I would suggest at least giving the proper page. Especially after it being pointed out you said a page and nothing was there.

As for the other rule, what that person is referring to from 4e is True Grit, where Bolters have a pistol grip and were allowed to add an additional attack in close combat if the model had said USR.

This rule does still currently exsist in Space Wolves and Deamon Hunters Codeci. Though Deamon Hunters get it with Storm Bolters.

page 42 (thanks Marius your a swell guy, and especially after it was not clearly pointed out otherwise) it is then, but the point is any weapon is considered a CC weapon, but only certain weapons (single handed) offer +1 attack.

Only time a Bolter Counts as a CCW is if they have True Grit, of which there are about 3 different versions if I remember correctly. The Space Wolf Version (which did allow the use of Combi Weapons as per the 4th ed faq, no clarification in the 5e one though), the Grey Knights Version (which affects Storm Bolters) and the USR Version.

padixon wrote:page 42 (thanks Marius your a swell guy, and especially after it was not clearly pointed out otherwise) it is then, but the point is any weapon is considered a CC weapon, but only certain weapons (single handed) offer +1 attack.

Only weapons that are specifically said to either be or count as a Close Combat weapon (or Special Close combat weapon like a Power Weapon etc) are counted unless (all together now) a special rule says otherwise. For example, a Weapon with the "Pistol" type counts as a CCW because the rules for Pistol weapons say they are.

Edit: Emperors Bowels I cannot Spell!

Dude, check it, rifle butts are listed as a CCW. Please check page 42 second paragraph. A CCW weapon is any weapon. If you wish to refute it, then at least look it up first.

All this paragraph talks about is that normal CCWs do not offer any bonuses inherent in the weapon.

There is a difference between a CCW and an 'extra or single-handed' CCW, which I believe is what you are trying to say, and rifle butts are 'not' an 'extra' CCW, they are a two-handed one as pointed out in another paragraph of which I have already referenced a few posts up.

EDITED: Came off a bit harsh....super sorry

Platuan4th wrote:Irrelevant. Something being 1-handed does NOT make it a CCW. The only thing this would help would be if a Codex still used the old Armories which put limits on how many 1-handed and 2-handed weapons you could carry, which the current Chaos book does not have.

If I recall correctly, having two one-handed weapons grants the +1 attack; hence the FAQ ruling declaring a neural shredder as one-handed.

Gwar! wrote:Only time a Bolter Counts as a CCW is if they have True Grit, of which there are about 3 different versions if I remember correctly. The Space Wolf Version (which did allow the use of Combi Weapons as per the 4th ed faq, no clarification in the 5e one though), the Grey Knights Version (which affects Storm Bolters) and the USR Version.

There IS no True Grit USR. There was in 4th Ed, but there no longer is in 5th Ed.

Fetterkey wrote:If I recall correctly, having two one-handed weapons grants the +1 attack; hence the FAQ ruling declaring a neural shredder as one-handed.

Close. A model with 2 Normal Close Combat Weapons, 2 of the same Special Weapons, and a Normal and a Special Close Combat Weapon get +1 attack.

It reads, pg. 42:

"FIGHTING WITH TWO SINGLE-HANDED WEAPONS
Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons they can use in close combat, with the rules given below for the different possible combinations. Of course, if a model is using a two-handed close combat weapon(such as a rifle's butt or a two-handed battle axe), it may not use it together with another weapon." (Emphasis mine)

Please note that the rules does NOT say one-handed weapons, it specifically states one-handed weapons they can use in close combat. The only things allowed, therefore, are things with rules that say they count as a close combat weapon(normal or otherwise), eg. pistols, chainswords, combat blades, etc.

"NORMAL CLOSE COMBAT WEAPONS
Weapons like chainswords, rifle butts, combat blades, bayonets, etc., do not confer any particular bonus to the model using them. Remember that, in close combat, pistols count as normal close combat weapons and so the Strength and AP of the pistol is ignored."