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Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123655590609066021.html

I know this is a real concern for manufacturers.

Who Pays for Cap and Trade?
Hint: They were promised a tax cut during the Obama campaign.Article
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Cap and trade is the tax that dare not speak its name, and Democrats are hoping in particular that no one notices who would pay for their climate ambitions. With President Obama depending on vast new carbon revenues in his budget and Congress promising a bill by May, perhaps Americans would like to know the deeply unequal ways that climate costs would be distributed across regions and income groups.


APPoliticians love cap and trade because they can claim to be taxing "polluters," not workers. Hardly. Once the government creates a scarce new commodity -- in this case the right to emit carbon -- and then mandates that businesses buy it, the costs would inevitably be passed on to all consumers in the form of higher prices. Stating the obvious, Peter Orszag -- now Mr. Obama's budget director -- told Congress last year that "Those price increases are essential to the success of a cap-and-trade program."

Hit hardest would be the "95% of working families" Mr. Obama keeps mentioning, usually omitting that his no-new-taxes pledge comes with the caveat "unless you use energy." Putting a price on carbon is regressive by definition because poor and middle-income households spend more of their paychecks on things like gas to drive to work, groceries or home heating.

The Congressional Budget Office -- Mr. Orszag's former roost -- estimates that the price hikes from a 15% cut in emissions would cost the average household in the bottom-income quintile about 3.3% of its after-tax income every year. That's about $680, not including the costs of reduced employment and output. The three middle quintiles would see their paychecks cut between $880 and $1,500, or 2.9% to 2.7% of income. The rich would pay 1.7%. Cap and trade is the ideal policy for every Beltway analyst who thinks the tax code is too progressive (all five of them).

But the greatest inequities are geographic and would be imposed on the parts of the U.S. that rely most on manufacturing or fossil fuels -- particularly coal, which generates most power in the Midwest, Southern and Plains states. It's no coincidence that the liberals most invested in cap and trade -- Barbara Boxer, Henry Waxman, Ed Markey -- come from California or the Northeast.

Coal provides more than half of U.S. electricity, and 25 states get more than 50% of their electricity from conventional coal-fired generation. In Ohio, it totals 86%, according to the Energy Information Administration. Ratepayers in Indiana (94%), Missouri (85%), New Mexico (80%), Pennsylvania (56%), West Virginia (98%) and Wyoming (95%) are going to get soaked.

Another way to think about it is in terms of per capita greenhouse-gas emissions. California is the No. 2 carbon emitter in the country but also has a large economy and population. So the average Californian only had a carbon footprint of about 12 tons of CO2-equivalent in 2005, according to the World Resource Institute's Climate Analysis Indicators, which integrates all government data. The situation is very different in Wyoming and North Dakota -- paging Senators Mike Enzi and Kent Conrad -- where every person was responsible for 154 and 95 tons, respectively. See the nearby chart for cap and trade's biggest state winners and losers.

Democrats say they'll allow some of this ocean of new cap-and-trade revenue to trickle back down to the public. In his budget, Mr. Obama wants to recycle $525 billion through the "making work pay" tax credit that goes to many people who don't pay income taxes. But $400 for individuals and $800 for families still doesn't offset carbon's income raid, especially in states with higher carbon use.

All the more so because the Administration is lowballing its cap-and-trade tax estimates. Its stated goal is to reduce emissions 14% below 2005 levels by 2020, which assuming that four-fifths of emissions are covered (excluding agriculture, for instance), works out to about $13 or $14 per ton of CO2. When CBO scored a similar bill last year, it expected prices to start at $23 and rise to $44 by 2018. CBO also projected the total value of the allowances at $902 billion over the first decade, which is some $256 billion more than the Administration's estimate.

We asked the White House budget office for the assumptions behind its revenue estimates, but a spokesman said the Administration doesn't have a formal proposal and will work with Congress and "stakeholders" to shape one. We were also pointed to recent comments by Mr. Orszag that he was "sure there will be enough there to finance the things that we have identified" and maybe "additional money" too. In other words, Mr. Obama expects a much larger tax increase than even he is willing to admit.

Those "stakeholders" are going to need some very large bribes, starting with the regions that stand to lose the most. Led by Michigan's Debbie Stabenow, 15 Senate Democrats have already formed a "gang" demanding that "consumers and workers in all regions of the U.S. are protected from undue hardship." In practice, this would mean corporate welfare for carbon-heavy businesses.

And of course Congress is its own "stakeholder." An economy-wide tax under the cover of saving the environment is the best political moneymaker since the income tax. Obama officials are already telling the press, sotto voce, that climate revenues might fund universal health care and other new social spending. No doubt they would, and when they did Mr. Obama's cap-and-trade rebates would become even smaller.

Cap and trade, in other words, is a scheme to redistribute income and wealth -- but in a very curious way. It takes from the working class and gives to the affluent; takes from Miami, Ohio, and gives to Miami, Florida; and takes from an industrial America that is already struggling and gives to rich Silicon Valley and Wall Street "green tech" investors who know how to leverage the political class.



Please add your comments to the Opinion Journal forum.


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Committed Chaos Cult Marine





Looks like the tide is simply turning, The big factories and unions that used to pull soo much clout are now the innocent middle class, ripe for Obama's picking. I happen to live in the Miami valley in Ohio. And if all of this leads to the sky not being a sick shade of green in the moring and at sunset I'm all for it.

And whilst you're pointing and shouting at the boogeyman in the corner, you're missing the burglar coming in through the window.

Well, Duh! Because they had a giant Mining ship. If you had a giant mining ship you would drill holes in everything too, before you'd destory it with a black hole 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

sexiest_hero wrote:Looks like the tide is simply turning, The big factories and unions that used to pull soo much clout are now the innocent middle class, ripe for Obama's picking. I happen to live in the Miami valley in Ohio. And if all of this leads to the sky not being a sick shade of green in the moring and at sunset I'm all for it.
Are you going to wave goodby when those plants close and move out of country? How about massively higher prices for everything?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/03/09 15:48:29


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Rampaging Furioso Blood Angel Dreadnought





SC, USA

Frazzled wrote:
sexiest_hero wrote:Looks like the tide is simply turning, The big factories and unions that used to pull soo much clout are now the innocent middle class, ripe for Obama's picking. I happen to live in the Miami valley in Ohio. And if all of this leads to the sky not being a sick shade of green in the moring and at sunset I'm all for it.
Are you going to wave goodby when those plants close and move out of country? How about massively higher prices for everything?


Well that's merely a continuation of a process that atarted decades ago. Of course, if you have any ideas about how to stop manufacturing jobs from heading overseas then I'm all ears.

Of course, it's a moot (moot, damnit for the guy who keeps saying "mute point" in the IG superheavies thread!!!!) point. Manufacturing died this year pretty well round the world. 4,000 manufacturing companies went out of business and left a few 10,000's of plants closed after Chinese New Year. The workers just never came back from holiday. And china isn't the only one. Hard to worry about losing manufacturing jobs when then are hardly any left.
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

The reason that manufacturing is outsourcing to China is because it's cheaper to manufacture there.

Why would that lead to higher prices?

The key thing is to get US workers out of sunset industries which are dying and into growth industries with high skills and wages.

If there are any.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Kilkrazy wrote:The reason that manufacturing is outsourcing to China is because it's cheaper to manufacture there.

Yes and that will greatly spur outsourcing as historically occurred due to the Macquiladoras. Those that can't outsource will cease to exist.


Why would that lead to higher prices?

There are a variety of industries that can't leave asnd we have to pay for. Power companies, refiners. All those will past those costs onto the consumer. Those passed costs will be factored into food and other products via transport costs. Voila you've effectively restarted inflation. Way to help the poor guy.


The key thing is to get US workers out of sunset industries which are dying and into growth industries with high skills and wages.

1. Which industries would those be again?
2. How is a 55 year old factory worker going to do that again? retraining is a joke for these guys. Their lives are crushed. I've seen it. I've lived it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/03/09 17:06:18


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Committed Chaos Cult Marine





It's a cruel joke of life. Whaling died andleft a lot of salty sea dogs in the cold. Cars ended the horse trade and all it's side products. Things move on, People complain about keeping Zombie banks alive, they should also complain about keeping these Fossil industries alive as well.

And whilst you're pointing and shouting at the boogeyman in the corner, you're missing the burglar coming in through the window.

Well, Duh! Because they had a giant Mining ship. If you had a giant mining ship you would drill holes in everything too, before you'd destory it with a black hole 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

Like I said, if there are any.

The UK dumped most of its semi-skilled industry in the 1980s. We still have a manufacturing base doing more high-tech stuff such as JCBs, Formula 1 cars, aero engines and so on.

There is a car industry but its entirely foreign owned and suffering the same slump as all other car manufacturers.

Japan's exports halved in January.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7931806.stm

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

sexiest_hero wrote:It's a cruel joke of life. Whaling died andleft a lot of salty sea dogs in the cold. Cars ended the horse trade and all it's side products. Things move on, People complain about keeping Zombie banks alive, they should also complain about keeping these Fossil industries alive as well.


At least the government didn't try to actively destroy those industries.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego





Canterbury

..like it did the slave trade ! Bastards.

And the Asbestos industry ? Never recovered from the unfair restrictions forced upon them. Next thing the govt. will be trying to stop people smoking ! It's the NWO gone mad!

The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

reds8n wrote:..like it did the slave trade ! Bastards.

And the Asbestos industry ? Never recovered from the unfair restrictions forced upon them. Next thing the govt. will be trying to stop people smoking ! It's the NWO gone mad!

Actually they didn't. If the idiot rebels hadn't started that whole shooting cannons at the fort thing...idiots...

Who told you the government tried to stop smoking? Thats a cash cow baby.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
!!Goffik Rocker!!





(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)

You always pull out such unbiased editorials fraz.


Cap and trade, in other words, is a scheme to redistribute income and wealth -- but in a very curious way. It takes from the working class and gives to the affluent; takes from Miami, Ohio, and gives to Miami, Florida; and takes from an industrial America that is already struggling and gives to rich Silicon Valley and Wall Street "green tech" investors who know how to leverage the political class


I especially love the part where socialism is implied. Of course its a tax, thats the whole point of the system. Its designed to encourage workarounds and a lessoned dependancy on emissions. Its designed to "reward" companies that go green with tax cuts (that do exist) and punish companies that don't with a tax. However once the equilibrium is reached with green and non green holdings it will lesson considerably in price. It's high impact in the beginning and low in the end due to the distribution method of the system itself.



I also love how economists are always the last ones to care about the environment. Capitalism is at its core a present looking venture. It couldn't see the stock market crash before, it didn't see the one now. It doesn't foresee wars, it doesn't foresee new technologies. And it sure as hell doesn't care about environmental issues. Its a force for the generation of product and wealth through the rapid and sometimes efficient use of resources. It will whine about environmental legislation all the way up until the time the ice caps are gone and we're out of trees.

Because thats what it does.

----------------

Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

ShumaGorath wrote:



I also love how economists are always the last ones to care about the environment.


Because economists are concerned with people having money to eat. I love how environmentalists so rarely look at the costs of what they are proposing.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
!!Goffik Rocker!!





(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)

Frazzled wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:



I also love how economists are always the last ones to care about the environment.


Because economists are concerned with people having money to eat. I love how environmentalists so rarely look at the costs of what they are proposing.


Economists don't care about people having money to eat sir. They don't care about food either, they care about the welfare of the overall capitalist system from their limited perception of it. Economists are notoriously de humanizing, and tend to marginalize the bottom percents as an acceptable loss. Talk to one about health care to see what I mean. They rail against anti monopolization legislation as much as they do environmental or health care. Two of those things are good for the economy overall, and the third is good over time. Economists only care about feeding themselves and their own immediate families, and they insure their children by saving up a lot of money and making sure they are wealthy enough to sit comfortably above the shi!tstorm thats coming (ask any economist in any time period, the future always looks darker then the present).


As for environmentalists, I'm not really an environmentalist. I believe the environments screwed specifically because business interests and the politicians that support them hold more power then the tree huggers and scientists. As for the costs, I think they've looked at the cost. And I believe that your rather poor editorial opinion piece has done little to weigh cost benefits of the proposal and has done little to actually survey the field of manufacture. Especially globally. It's a bad piece in general, cap and trade is meant to modernize american industry in the least impactful way possible while not killing two third of the planet in three to four generations (mass starvation as a direct result of climate change isn't a fairy tale, its the most obvious result. Especially given the upward curve of population). The piece is a rant that was poorly researched and full of party line rhetoric (a good economist talks about policies and numbers, not socialism). It blames current policies for the US loss of manufacture jobs, as if we hadn't already lost the vast majority of them and never once talks about the aim of the policies it tears down.


Hell, it doesn't really even talk about the benefits of a "tax" during a time when our budget shortfalls threaten to bankrupt us as a country. It's just political rhetoric hidden in an "economists" editorial.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2009/03/09 19:11:00


----------------

Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

ShumaGorath wrote:
Economists don't care about people having money to eat sir. They don't care about food either, they care about the welfare of the overall capitalist system from their limited perception of it. Economists are notoriously de humanizing, and tend to marginalize the bottom percents as an acceptable loss. Talk to one about health care to see what I mean. They rail against anti monopolization legislation as much as they do environmental or health care. Two of those things are good for the economy overall, and the third is good over time. Economists only care about feeding themselves and their own immediate families, and they insure their children by saving up a lot of money and making sure they are wealthy enough to sit comfortably above the shi!tstorm thats coming (ask any economist in any time period, the future always looks darker then the present).

Wow, if I were an economist, I'd probably be ranting at you right now with all other factors held constant...



As for environmentalists, I'm not really an environmentalist. I believe the environments screwed specifically because business interests and the politicians that support them hold more power then the tree huggers and scientists. As for the costs, I think they've looked at the cost. And I believe that your rather poor editorial opinion piece has done little to weigh cost benefits of the proposal and has done little to actually survey the field of manufacture. Especially globally. It's a bad piece in general, cap and trade is meant to modernize american industry in the least impactful way possible while not killing two third of the planet in three to four generations (mass starvation as a direct result of climate change isn't a fairy tale, its the most obvious result). The piece is a rant that was poorly researched and full of party line rhetoric (a good economist talks about policies and numbers, not socialism). It blames current policies for the US loss of manufacture jobs, as if we hadn't already lost the vast majority of them and never once talks about the aim of the policies it tears down.

Goo thing you have no biased viepoint yourself..er..ok.

How do you know what cap and trade is meant to do besides raise tax income? Its a failure in Europe and the big polluters (Asia) laugh at the concept, except to get more business.

Again people don't care about global warming if they are worried about having enough to eat.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
!!Goffik Rocker!!





(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)


Again people don't care about global warming if they are worried about having enough to eat.


Yeah, lets not worry about that cliff ahead, I have a hang nail. Starvation is not an issue in europe and america. Funny though how it is in asia. Its as if you're whole food on the plate diatribe is a load of crap.


Wow, if I were an economist, I'd probably be ranting at you right now with all other factors held constant...


And if you were I would say that sentence makes no sense..?


Goo thing you have no biased viepoint yourself..er..ok.


The difference being I'm not writing page thirty editorial trash then getting reposted on a website.


How do you know what cap and trade is meant to do besides raise tax income?


Because it's been on the table for a decade as a manageable and easy way to regulate carbon emissions. It's not exactly new. As for failing in europe, well thats because of awful implementation in an incredibly fractured economic alliance of many countries. Hillary couldn't get healthcare to work, that doesn't mean it's bound to fail everywhere. Trying something once then whining that the system is broken because of bad implementation is also something a good economist wouldn't do. As for "asia" laughing at it lets be real here. You mean China. And they haven't laughed at it, they have laughed at the idea of adopting something that the U.S., its only major competition in the field of pollution both came up with and refused to implement (in the bush years). China wants a "level" playing field with international law in which to do business. They will adopt the policies if europe, japan, and america sign on to it as well. They would have too given the likelihood of trade restriction if they didn't.



Also I find it funny that china has lost over 30 million manufacturing jobs since this whole economic storm started. Yet you make them seem like the big winners in all this.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/03/09 19:27:51


----------------

Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

ShumaGorath wrote:
Again people don't care about global warming if they are worried about having enough to eat.


Yeah, lets not worry about that cliff ahead, I have a hang nail. Starvation is not an issue in europe and america. Funny though how it is in asia. Its as if you're whole food on the plate diatribe is a load of crap.
***they don't care about cap and trade in Asia
***they don't care about cap in trade in the US if it costs them their job
***everyone else will care if administration is honest in what its impact will be.


And if you were I would say that sentence makes no sense..?

****I would say it means you'ven ever taken an economics course, or you'd catch the joke.


The difference being I'm not writing page thirty editorial trash then getting reposted on a website.

No you're just posting er...material on a website.


Because it's been on the table for a decade as a manageable and easy way to regulate carbon emissions. It's not exactly new. As for failing in europe, well thats because of awful implementation in an incredibly fractured economic alliance of many countries. Hillary couldn't get healthcare to work, that doesn't mean it's bound to fail everywhere. Trying something once then whining that the system is broken because of bad implementation is also something a good economist wouldn't do. As for "asia" laughing at it lets be real here.

Take that directly from Al Gore or did they have to fax it to ya?


You mean China. And they haven't laughed at it, they have laughed at the idea of adopting something that the U.S., its only major competition in the field of pollution both came up with and refused to implement (in the bush years). China wants a "level" playing field with international law in which to do business. They will adopt the policies if europe, japan, and america sign on to it as well. They would have too given the likelihood of trade restriction if they didn't.


Thats utter nonsense. They want competitive advantage, thats why their currency is held at artificially low levels. Every country wants advantage. Thats why they weren't a part of Kyoto.


Also I find it funny that china has lost over 30 million manufacturing jobs since this whole economic storm started. Yet you make them seem like the big winners in all this.

They will be. The recession is temporary. Exterminating entire US industries won't be.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
!!Goffik Rocker!!





(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)


Thats utter nonsense. They want competitive advantage, thats why their currency is held at artificially low levels. Every country wants advantage. Thats why they weren't a part of Kyoto.


Yeah, thats the big reason they weren't part of the original kyoto protocol.


Thats utter nonsense. They want competitive advantage, thats why their currency is held at artificially low levels. Every country wants advantage. Thats why they weren't a part of Kyoto.


True, they do want a competitive advantage. So do we. Yet we've signed onto it. There's a difference between wanting a "competitive advantage" and refusing global market policy. Note that I mentioned trade restrictions if they didn't get on the boat, at that point it would be in their interests if they did and in our interests if they didn't. That artificially stable currency wouldn't mean a whole lot in the face of global tariffs, they would cave because its good business to look foreword. The chinese state is foreword looking, and understand the threat of climate change in regards to their rather fragile economy and ability to generate food for itself.


They will be. The recession is temporary. Exterminating entire US industries won't be.


Industries like..? Our auto industry? We're a technology and service economy, the only production industries we've managed to hold onto have been dying a slow death. That was just as true under bush when taxes were low and our plane was flying into a mountain as it is now that we're all on fire and trying to put ourselves out. The mills aren't coming back fraz.


I would say it means you'ven ever taken an economics course, or you'd catch the joke.


Or it would mean the economics classes I've taken were more than just a joke.


Take that directly from Al Gore or did they have to fax it to ya?


Of all the insane neocons fraz, you're the best. *hug*

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/03/09 19:58:41


----------------

Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

ShumaGorath wrote:
Of all the insane neocons fraz, you're the best. *hug*


Why Shuma, I didn't know you cared. Stop it, you're making me blush.


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

The Soviet Union's currency used to be held at an artificially high level. It didn't work. I doubt the Chinese Renmimbi can hold its low level for ever.

The current global recession is doing a great job of reducing factory emissions without any legal malarkey.

BTW The Economist is a big fan of carbon trading -- they are not exactly known for their left-leaning editorial stance.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Any market Enron thought would be the Next Big Thing scares me to death.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





I don’t really like cap and trade, undertaken by a single country. Seems then the incentive isn’t towards developing cleaner tech, but just moving manufacturing to countries with lower emissions control. I think the better solution is to focus on subsidising clean technology research and application.

And yet, the article posted by the OP still sucked. Complaining about the regressive impact of the tax, while it’s being brought in alongside progressive tax cuts is deliberately disingenuous. Citing the varying levels of carbon emission per person as proof that the impact is unequal, while ignoring the obvious argument that lifestyle can be maintained with 1/10th the carbon emissions is pretzel logic of the highest order. It also ignores the obvious point that money taxed from industry is then spent by government.

Ridiculously written, and all the more frustrating because I agree with the underlying argument.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





ShumaGorath wrote:Economists don't care about people having money to eat sir. They don't care about food either, they care about the welfare of the overall capitalist system from their limited perception of it. Economists are notoriously de humanizing, and tend to marginalize the bottom percents as an acceptable loss. Talk to one about health care to see what I mean. They rail against anti monopolization legislation as much as they do environmental or health care. Two of those things are good for the economy overall, and the third is good over time. Economists only care about feeding themselves and their own immediate families, and they insure their children by saving up a lot of money and making sure they are wealthy enough to sit comfortably above the shi!tstorm thats coming (ask any economist in any time period, the future always looks darker then the present).


Are you basing this on highschool economics, or an introductory economics class in college? Because economics is a lot more detailed and interesting than what you’ve posted above, and models have been built to account for and encourage all manner of factors beyond basic demand and supply.

Try reading Paul Krugman, for a start, and you’ll quickly realise economics has a lot more to it than the politicised drivel that right wingers pretend is economics.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

sebster wrote:I don’t really like cap and trade, undertaken by a single country. Seems then the incentive isn’t towards developing cleaner tech, but just moving manufacturing to countries with lower emissions control. I think the better solution is to focus on subsidising clean technology research and application.

And yet, the article posted by the OP still sucked. Complaining about the regressive impact of the tax, while it’s being brought in alongside progressive tax cuts is deliberately disingenuous. Citing the varying levels of carbon emission per person as proof that the impact is unequal, while ignoring the obvious argument that lifestyle can be maintained with 1/10th the carbon emissions is pretzel logic of the highest order. It also ignores the obvious point that money taxed from industry is then spent by government.

Ridiculously written, and all the more frustrating because I agree with the underlying argument.


Sebbie,

1. Whats the factual basis for the figure that 1/10 the carbon emissions can be achieved with no lifestyle detriment?

2. To your second point-tax goving to government: thats part of what the screaming is about. The taxes will go to government for their programs, whilst being passed through and directly impacting on a regressive basis. It has a similar efect to gasoline taxes, in impacting the poor or those with fixed incomes (read-my mom) more intensely than those like myself.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Frazzled wrote:Sebbie,

1. Whats the factual basis for the figure that 1/10 the carbon emissions can be achieved with no lifestyle detriment?


It's straight from the article, where California is given at 12 tonnes per capita, and Wyoming at 154. Having just typed that, I realised that's a result of industry and not consumption and my point was terribly irrelevant. Forget I said anything on that.

2. To your second point-tax goving to government: thats part of what the screaming is about. The taxes will go to government for their programs, whilst being passed through and directly impacting on a regressive basis. It has a similar efect to gasoline taxes, in impacting the poor or those with fixed incomes (read-my mom) more intensely than those like myself.


Which is ignoring the idea that government expenditure programs might be progressive. Which is a crazy thing to ignore.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

I am not ignoring that sebbie. I'm positing that a government impact from progressive spending will be more than counterbalanced via inflationary costs. Can I justify that statement? Difficult as it goes to philosphical separation about whether one views governemnt spending as better than personal spending and charity (ie if government takes money to give money will it do better than if the people had that money directly).

I guess my easiest basis is personal, the Mom Standard.
Frankly so far none of the progressive plans proposed will be helpful to my mom. However reductions in COLAs and reimburseables to private entities for Medicare that have been proposed will negatively impact her, as will any potentially inflationary pressures from cap and trade.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Stabbin' Skarboy




Galactics Comics and Games, Georgia, USA

Frazzled wrote:
2. How is a 55 year old factory worker going to do that again? retraining is a joke for these guys. Their lives are crushed. I've seen it. I've lived it.



Thats the truth. My dad is a logger. He's been doing that for 20+ years, doesn't know how to use a computer, and can't change jobs. Work for him has slowed down, drastically. He's only working 2-3 days a week [compared to the 5-6 he was working last year at this time]. I've tried teaching him something about computers and new technology and it takes a lot of work. More than basic training of a new employee. Hell, he just learned how to work his cell phone completely.

What makes it worse is that when he was younger, he got drunk with his friends and passed out in the back of a car. Then, his friends used said car to knock over a liquor store. He got 8 years for an accessory to armed robbery. [Got out in 3 with good behavior]. There's no way he has the motivation or the desire to try and retrain for another job.

And that's just my popsy-pops. All the other individual cases with unique circumstances....
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Frazzled wrote:I am not ignoring that sebbie. I'm positing that a government impact from progressive spending will be more than counterbalanced via inflationary costs.


I don't know you or your Mum, but I'm guessing she's not getting the $250 that all retirees can claim? Or benefit from the tax cut? I can't argue based on a person I don't know, so I'll just take your word for it that your Mum is perfectly placed to miss all possible benefits, and instead will be impacted only by the smal increase in power costs.

Except there is also billions going into developing economic infrastructure, which is predicted to lower costs of energy supply.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
Committed Chaos Cult Marine





This is a non- issue, The same people that complain about the loss of these jobs, were complaining about the Auto bail-out. What about those people.

And whilst you're pointing and shouting at the boogeyman in the corner, you're missing the burglar coming in through the window.

Well, Duh! Because they had a giant Mining ship. If you had a giant mining ship you would drill holes in everything too, before you'd destory it with a black hole 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

sebster wrote:
Frazzled wrote:I am not ignoring that sebbie. I'm positing that a government impact from progressive spending will be more than counterbalanced via inflationary costs.


I don't know you or your Mum, but I'm guessing she's not getting the $250 that all retirees can claim? Or benefit from the tax cut? I can't argue based on a person I don't know, so I'll just take your word for it that your Mum is perfectly placed to miss all possible benefits, and instead will be impacted only by the smal increase in power costs.

Except there is also billions going into developing economic infrastructure, which is predicted to lower costs of energy supply.


Appreciate the sarcasm there Sebbie. Thought we were moving ahead.

You're accurate. She won't be getting a tax break most likely. The COLA adjustment will be half what it was going to be. More importantly, if enacted, the current plans will force her to pay substantially higher costs for prescription drugs and plans. Any increase in inflationary costs will be bad for her.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
 
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