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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/03/11 11:21:05
Subject: The joy of cap and trade
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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sexiest_hero wrote:This is a non- issue, The same people that complain about the loss of these jobs, were complaining about the Auto bail-out. What about those people.
Who the  do you think are going to be impacted by cap and trade? These guys.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/03/11 12:21:34
Subject: The joy of cap and trade
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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My father got an extra 25p a week pension once he hit 80.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/03/13 19:28:22
Subject: Re:The joy of cap and trade
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Here's a good article on the impacts on energy production. Again, there's a real cost to trying to be green.
http://www.reuters.com/article/internal_ReutersNewsRoom_BehindTheScenes_MOLT/idUSTRE52469M20090305
Running a machine to strip out carbon dioxide will use up about 10 percent to 15 percent of a power plant's electricity, Morris said. That, combined with the cost of designing and building the plant, could add 40 percent to the cost of energy.
And under a cap and trade system, "you are both buying credits in the market and deploying technology -- you are probably raising energy costs by 100 percent," he said.
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In the dark future, there are skulls for everyone. But only the bad guys get spikes. And rivets for all, apparently welding was lost in the Dark Age of Technology. -from C.Borer |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/03/13 21:24:47
Subject: The joy of cap and trade
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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There's also a cost to not trying to be green.
The question is how to quantify these costs realistically in order to make rational decisions about the best course of action.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/03/18 15:37:55
Subject: Re:The joy of cap and trade - rcosts uppraised to $2,000,000,000,000.00
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/mar/18/obama-climate-plan-could-cost-2-trillion/
Obama climate plan could cost $2 trillion
President Obama's climate plan could cost industry close to $2 trillion, nearly three times the White House's initial estimate of the so-called "cap-and-trade" legislation, according to Senate staffers who were briefed by the White House.
A top economic aide to Mr. Obama told a group of Senate staffers last month that the president's climate-change plan would surely raise more than the $646 billion over eight years the White House had estimated publicly, according to multiple a number of staffers who attended the briefing Feb. 26.
"We all looked at each other like, 'Wow, that's a big number,'" said a top Republican staffer who attended the meeting along with between 50 and 60 other Democratic and Republican congressional aides.
The plan seeks to reduce pollution by setting a limit on carbon emissions and allowing businesses and groups to buy allowances, although exact details have not been released.
At the meeting, Jason Furman, a top Obama staffer, estimated that the president's cap-and-trade program could cost up to three times as much as the administration's early estimate of $646 billion over eight years. A study of an earlier cap-and-trade bill co-sponsored by Mr. Obama when he was a senator estimated the cost could top $366 billion a year by 2015.
A White House official did not confirm the large estimate, saying only that Obama aides previously had noted that the $646 billion estimate was "conservative."
"Any revenues in excess of the estimate would be rebated to vulnerable consumers, communities and businesses," the official said.
The Obama administration has proposed using the majority of the money generated from a cap-and-trade plan to pay for its middle-class tax cuts, while using about $120 billion to invest in renewable-energy projects.
Mr. Obama and congressional Democratic leaders have made passing a climate-change bill a top priority. But Republican leaders and moderate to conservative Democrats have cautioned against levying increased fees on businesses while the economy is still faltering.
House Republican leaders blasted the costs in the new estimate.
"The last thing we need is a massive tax increase in a recession, but reportedly that's what the White House is offering: up to $1.9 trillion in tax hikes on every single American who drives a car, turns on a light switch or buys a product made in the United States," said Michael Steel, a spokesman for House Minority Leader John A. Boehner. "And since this energy tax won't affect manufacturers in Mexico, India and China, it will do nothing but drive American jobs overseas."
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/03/18 18:55:26
Subject: The joy of cap and trade
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!!Goffik Rocker!!
(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)
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"Any revenues in excess of the estimate would be rebated to vulnerable consumers, communities and businesses," the official said.
The Obama administration has proposed using the majority of the money generated from a cap-and-trade plan to pay for its middle-class tax cuts, while using about $120 billion to invest in renewable-energy projects.
Renewable energy sources can be a good economic stimulus and rebating the costs could mitigate the business costs well. The up and coming climate conference could well also see china impose similar legislation itself. It has warned against sweeping changes, but seems quite receptive now that the global markets that buy all of its goods have initiated similar systems.
Heavy tax rebates to the "middle class" could also help U.S. industry as they are generally the ones that purchase longer lasting (god i cant remember the name) goods.
It really depends on if we can get china on board, that said a global fall in demand due to job loss hurts china just as much as it does everyone else (actually more).
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Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/03/19 00:26:45
Subject: Re:The joy of cap and trade
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Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges
United States
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"The last thing we need is a massive tax increase in a recession, but reportedly that's what the White House is offering: up to $1.9 trillion in tax hikes on every single American who drives a car, turns on a light switch or buys a product made in the United States," said Michael Steel, a spokesman for House Minority Leader John A. Boehner. "And since this energy tax won't affect manufacturers in Mexico, India and China, it will do nothing but drive American jobs overseas."
Actually it will simply make using electricity and buying American more expensive. This will reduce consumption to a point, but not necessarily in the industries affected by the change-over. The truth is that its very difficult to estimate the impact of something like cap-and-trade. It certainly will alter the economy, but whether that alteration costs us jobs, or produces them is far more uncertain.
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Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/03/19 10:59:16
Subject: The joy of cap and trade
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Buying American more expensive, buying Chinese not = s buying more Chinese.
The Chinese have gone on record as stating that any measure to imporse tariffs on their goods equal to cap and trade levels (if their regulations are not similar) will start a trade war. That idea was floating by the Obama administration this month and China told them to sod off.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/03/19 12:53:20
Subject: The joy of cap and trade
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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The US and Europe are the only two regions in the world that care about the environment. China clearly does not (if they dont' care about using lead paint on children's toys, they can't care about the environment either). The Middle East is smog city.
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In the dark future, there are skulls for everyone. But only the bad guys get spikes. And rivets for all, apparently welding was lost in the Dark Age of Technology. -from C.Borer |
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