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FYI, some of this may end up being late night ramblings.

I picked up my first 40k a few months ago with the ambitious idea of trying something different and painting something out of the apparent norm for 40k (yellow orks if anyone remembers). I had very little knowledge of the 40k background but have always been more of a scifi fan that fantasy anyways. It only took one game with Orks to lose interest in it all and revert back to my beloved fantasy. Fantasy made sense and I understood fantasy's background and why things were in the Old World.

Couple months after that I pick up the Blood Angels Omnibus and speed right though it thinking Blood Angels were the gak and wanting too start an army of them (glad I didn't though). That also died down as I started reading Blood for the Blood God and got engulfed into fantasy Chaos and starting an army of them which I grew to absolutely love and though "Heck, if Chaos is this fun in fantasy, lets give it a try in 40k". Not long after that gave me my opportunity, and Iron Painter contest at my local GW which gave me the incentive to buy and paint a small force which I did (and won!) and everything was grand. I enjoy the short, fast paced games with Chaos and all the fun evil things they can do....Then I started reading the Horus Heresy and everything's turning upside down. I'm halfway though Galaxy In Flames and I'm beginning to get disgusted even looking at my Chaos after understanding all the horrible things Horus is doing and how easily his weak mind was persuaded to the Chaos powers. I mean he didn't even try to go back to Terra right at the start and confront the Emperor with his thoughts. It's tonight that I realize just how different Chaos is between 40k and Fantasy and it's been making me think about all the races in the current 40k universe, how they work, their background, and ultimately, who I feel right about owning, playing, and becoming a part of. So I've written out a list of my thoughts for each army followed by questions (if need be) of what i don't understand and would like to know more of.

Daemons - Are Daemons. Warp entities who have no control and do as they were created to do. Perfectly acceptable and understandable.

Chaos Marines - Morally unforgivable past in their creation. What happened in the 10,000 years or so of time after the Emperor slew Horus and essentially everyone flew into the Eye of Terror? What ideological changes occured? Or are they still just devoted to taking apart the Imperium because their former Warmaster said it's what they should do?

Daemonhunters - Perfectly understandable to have a force specifically designed to fight against daemon invasions, otherwise they fall under the Marine and Witch hunter category further down.

Dark Eldar - From what I understand were originally smart enough to try and escape Slaanesh's grasp on the Eldar and a whole and fled to start new communities, but the power of Slaanesh within them slowly stealing their soul energies and they raid planets or whatnot to steal victims souls to keep theirs replenished and safe. But at what point does that make them masochistic psychopaths?

Eldar - Suffered the same as the Eldar...but why are they on the "good guy" end of the spectrum? What are they doing to save themselves from Slaanesh's soul hunger? Why are they so much better off?

Guard - fight for what are told is right, no individuality. Acceptable in the sense that they have no control over their lives. How is one entered into the Imperial Guard? Are there Drafts? Does a person have free choice to sign up?

Orks - Lets not even worry about the fungus

Marines - totalitarians, fascists, the most horrific force imaginable. Do as we say or die? Conform to our ideals or be exterminated? If your not human you stand no chance of acceptance? Despicable...

Tau - What exactly IS the Greater Good? There doesn't seem to be very solid definitions behind it. And the Ethereals just, what?...Appeared? Seems like a well oiled system though, everyone in a Caste based on what you were born into and know how to do best, no one left behind...but a little on the Marine side of "conform to our ideals or die"

Tyranids - Mindless hungry insects. I get it, I've seen Starship troopers. Now if the whole Genestealer Cult thing was still prominent things would be different, why lose that idea?

Witch Hunters - religious, fascist radicals who are completely against any outside ideals. Realistically the most F***d up group of people in the universe.


I think with all this I'm coming to understand the full spectrum of the GrimDark imagery weaved into the entirety of the 40k universe and that there really is no good and bad side to it. Everything suffers (or would if it had the brain to)...

My interpretations (which is all we have with the ammount and varity of fluff sources out there) based off of my 20 years with the background (and my knowledge tends to be older and would be trumped by more recent releases).

Tizz wrote:Are Daemons warp entities who have no control and do as they were created to do.

No, Daemons are different than generic Warp Entities But as far as I know they are just created to fullfill the bidding of a Daemon God. Warp entities is a more broad term for many things which could exist and pose a threat from the warp. Rouge psykers are the biggest victum of a warp entity.

Tizz wrote:....the Eldar...but why are they on the "good guy" end of the spectrum? What are they doing to save themselves from Slaanesh's soul hunger? Why are they so much better off?

1) Good is relative, what do you mean by that? If the Imperium is good, all zenos is bad.
2) They drift about on their Craftworlds repenting looking for a new home or something.
3) They aren't better off, they're a dying race.

Tizz wrote:How is one entered into the Imperial Guard? Are there Drafts? Does a person have free choice to sign up?

Depends on the sector and how it's governed. The worlds of the Imperium are generally free to govern how they please (as long as tithes are good). So some places would have a mandatory draft, while others may only take the elite of the elite. The Imp Guard serves as the general fighting force for given planets and sectors, usually charge with defence unless there is an encroaching zenos threat or special assignment.

Tizz wrote:Marines - totalitarians, fascists, the most horrific force imaginable. Do as we say or die? Conform to our ideals or be exterminated? If your not human you stand no chance of acceptance? Despicable...

In full disclosure, I am a Blood Angle player, so maybe I'm biased.
1) Totalitarians-Generally no, Space Marine chapters are often based out of a certain sector and generally serve as a protector to that sector, but they generally don't govern anything. I think that the Ultramarines control their worlds (and are quite successful at creating a utopia if I remember correctly).
2) Fascists-Okay, but only within their ranks. They have a doctrine and they stick to it. But they know their not like normal Imperial citizens and serve only for the Imperiums protection, not to live the benefit of said protection.
3) Horrific force? If they're doing their jobs right!
4) Conform to our ideals.... In the time before the Horus Hersey when the Imperium was still finding lost human colonies, yes, if they showed up at your door, it was because there is a problem with compliance, and they're there to solve the problem with guns and leave as soon as possible. In modern 40K times, there isn't much of finding lost human worlds anymore. And the Imperium doesn't seek to start an interglatic UN, if you are zenos, than you are a threat.

Tizz wrote:Tyranids - Mindless hungry insects. I get it, I've seen Starship troopers. Now if the whole Genestealer Cult thing was still prominent things would be different, why lose that idea?

Good question, Tyranids were the new army when I got out of 40K originally, I don't know much of what in their fluff they've changed.

Tizz wrote:Witch Hunters - religious, fascist radicals who are completely against any outside ideals. Realistically the most F***d up group of people in the universe.

Witch Hunters, Daemons Hunters, the Inquisition and the Grey Knights are all closely related serving as the hammer to the various executive branches in the Imperium. It's been a while since I've read their codexes, but all these groups serve in protection of the Imperium from threats within or the other more subtle enemies of the Imperium. I've always considered the Imperium armies as such;
Imp Gaurd: Generic forces of Army, Marines and Navy.
Space Marines: Spec ops, used for quick objectives and shock attacks.
Witch & Daemons Hunters, the Inquisition, etc: Agencies like CIA, FBI, NSA...

Tizz wrote:I think with all this I'm coming to understand the full spectrum of the GrimDark imagery weaved into the entirety of the 40k universe and that there really is no good and bad side to it. Everything suffers (or would if it had the brain to)...

Absolutely.

Dark Eldar - From what I understand were originally smart enough to try and escape Slaanesh's grasp on the Eldar and a whole and fled to start new communities, but the power of Slaanesh within them slowly stealing their soul energies and they raid planets or whatnot to steal victims souls to keep theirs replenished and safe. But at what point does that make them masochistic psychopaths?

Eldar - Suffered the same as the Eldar...but why are they on the "good guy" end of the spectrum? What are they doing to save themselves from Slaanesh's soul hunger? Why are they so much better off?

Actually, the fall of the Eldar race so many thousands of years ago serves as an interesting contrast/question. Early on in the relative history of the 40k universe, the eldar started to slip into deviance and excess... and they slid quite a long way. Just to give you an idea of how far they slid, they actually managed to spawn a new chaos god. You may have heard of him/her/it... Slaanesh, the aftereffects of which is what the Imperium refers to as the "Eye Of Terror".

While the Craftworld Eldar saw the aftermath of their actions and decided "Oh crap... we'd better change this around or we're screwed...", the Dark Eldar said "Hey! Awesome! Patron saint of the PAR-TAY!", went off into the webway, and ended up at Commorragh, The Dark City. Aside from the need to replenish their souls with the sould of other beings (usually prisoners from their raids), they seem to be thriving, if evil and twisted servants of the young god that they, themselves, birthed.

It sounds like the new novels paint chaos as dumb get what they deserved bad guys. But I always saw them as the pinnacle and righteous anger, betrayed by a cruel emperor, dabbling in the realm of unlimited powers, falling sadly. Like Necromancer, or the a.b.c warriors, rebels against a cruel system. I thought that is how the books, at least those I read painted them

Isn't whfb just as grimdark?

All the, do it to them before they do it to us, constant war is a little silly. It was not spelled out so clearly when I started, but they haven't ever expanded the setting enough, so it has sort of ended up that way.

Plus if we're engaging in a whine-fest. Necrons, Nids and Tau need a lot more fluff, I don't like their current fluff. I loved old Orks fluff, but they seem pretty different now. Less humorous more full of steroids - but 4ok already has a lot of that. Chaos has gone from ultimate evil, to completely irrelevent, which is sad as chaos is the best segment of 40k fluff.