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[Technical Note: There was an audio issue during rapid fire this week. For the first couple questions you can't hear Raef or Norbert's responses. This is corrected about half way through Rapid fire. The rest of the show is fine. Well, as fine as it normally is. ;-) ]

In episode 27 we interview Dr. Norbert Brunhuber, Warmachine tourney veteran, and get his thoughts on charity gaming. Specifically the Foodmachine drives.

Later we examine the question "Is Privateer Press jumping the shark?" New plastic models, a complete reboot of the rules announced with Warmachine Mark II? Are they heading down a risky path?

All that and our usual 'not too horrible' humor, with features such as:

- Rapid Fire
- The Hollywood Minute
- When Wives Attack
- The Score (*NEW SEGMENT*)
- & More


Please let us know what you think!!

Link to the show:
http://www.thed6generation.com/index.php?post_id=445261



Link to discussion about prior episodes:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/232046.page

Sorry, but I have to rant a bit. You see, I had this little voice singing "Fanboys! Fanboys!" in the back of my head during the PP segment.

Privateer Press does something completely different from GW and it's hailed as a great thing and much better than GW.
Privateer Press takes a 180 degree turn and does the same thing as GW and it is also a great thing and much better than GW.

Is it because the head of PP has personally gone on the forums and personally told people to STFU and the head of GW hasn't?

And naturally few of the PP players are complaining about the MkII change, a fanboy likes everything the company does regardless! Look at some of the 40K fanboys you get around here, who praise GW regardless.

Bah!

I just get rather fed up with the fanboys who claim that regardless of how small the difference becomes, it is still a very significant difference. Compare your discussion of what in the PP / GW rules 'change the entire game' and what doesn't. I really couldn't follow that.

It just gets a bit tiresome in the long run. One company chances its policy on metal models or how they release new units*, and that is all well and good and we move one. Meanwhile another company has already changed its policy on universal special rules five frickin' years ago and people still keep going on about it. :(

You see what I mean? With one company the emphasis is on "It is now great!" and with the other company the empasis is on "It used to be crap!". There is a consistency which is lacking there. *sigh*

I wonder how things would be different if it was two GW players and one PP player, instead of the other way around. Maybe then there would be some critical questions of why exactly they would force the player to spend money constantly to keep up ("You bought this £25 rulebook and £10 deck of cards one year ago? Well, you'll have to buy new ones again at full price next year! Bwahaha!") instead of neatly glossing over it.

I'll stop ranting now.

And remember that there is no hatin', just disappointment. I otherwise really love the show.

-Tarjei



* or 'play like you have no social skills'

I think the reason some PP fans are so optomistic about this reworking of the game is because we don't feel we've yet been screwed over by Privateer Press.

I like the game, I can afford the models, they give amazing Community & FAQ/Rule support, and they explain the reasoning behind pretty much everything they do.

They're even having a public beta test of the new rules in April!

I do feel I've been screwed over by GW in the past however. They've made entire armies of mine putrid to play with re-writes. Their Magazine is an advertising rag, they delay rule clarificiations, or don't provide them and tell people to use RAW. I also feel GW don't care about these things at best, at worst it's mercenary.

And I don't like the game half as much as I like Warmachine.

So, until PP screw me over, and I feel it's deliberate, I'll give them the optomistic benefit of the doubt. As you guys seem to be as well.

That's the difference for me anyway, Avian.

Greg

Oh, I think Remix was released in 2007 not 2008. So that's 1/3rd less evil already

ALERT: The interview with Norbert inadvertently got left on the cutting room floor! I'll be correcting that tonight, so there will be a replacement version of this episode along with some quick comments on how to quickly find the interview if you've already listened to the show.

Still listening but I have to say I love the new segment 'The Score'

Avian wrote:Sorry, but I have to rant a bit. You see, I had this little voice singing "Fanboys! Fanboys!" in the back of my head during the PP segment.

Privateer Press does something completely different from GW and it's hailed as a great thing and much better than GW.
Privateer Press takes a 180 degree turn and does the same thing as GW and it is also a great thing and much better than GW.

Is it because the head of PP has personally gone on the forums and personally told people to STFU and the head of GW hasn't?

And naturally few of the PP players are complaining about the MkII change, a fanboy likes everything the company does regardless! Look at some of the 40K fanboys you get around here, who praise GW regardless.

Bah!

I just get rather fed up with the fanboys who claim that regardless of how small the difference becomes, it is still a very significant difference. Compare your discussion of what in the PP / GW rules 'change the entire game' and what doesn't. I really couldn't follow that.

It just gets a bit tiresome in the long run. One company chances its policy on metal models or how they release new units*, and that is all well and good and we move one. Meanwhile another company has already changed its policy on universal special rules five frickin' years ago and people still keep going on about it. :(

You see what I mean? With one company the emphasis is on "It is now great!" and with the other company the empasis is on "It used to be crap!". There is a consistency which is lacking there. *sigh*

I wonder how things would be different if it was two GW players and one PP player, instead of the other way around. Maybe then there would be some critical questions of why exactly they would force the player to spend money constantly to keep up ("You bought this £25 rulebook and £10 deck of cards one year ago? Well, you'll have to buy new ones again at full price next year! Bwahaha!") instead of neatly glossing over it.

I'll stop ranting now.

And remember that there is no hatin', just disappointment. I otherwise really love the show.

-Tarjei



* or 'play like you have no social skills'

I'm not sure I quite understand your point. I think there is very little the two companies actually do the same, appart from sell miniature war games.

I was on record in ep 1 of the D6G stating that what 40k really needs is a full rules re-write, not just a patch. 5th edition ended up being a patch. I did say in our 5th ed review that it was a good patch, but it 's still not what the game needs.

Privateer is doing a FULL REBOOT, reevaluating every model, every point cost, every rule mechanic. I think this is a MUCH better approach will yield a better product in the long run.

I don't think it is as simple as you are making it sound. It's not GW does X, PP does X, but GW is bad. It's really this:

GW has problem X. PP is now big enough to also have problem X.

To fix problem X GW does Z. Z isn't really that great.

PP fixes problem X by doing Y. Y looks like a better idea to me, but we'll have to wait and see.

RussWakelin wrote:ALERT: The interview with Norbert inadvertently got left on the cutting room floor! I'll be correcting that tonight, so there will be a replacement version of this episode along with some quick comments on how to quickly find the interview if you've already listened to the show.

Thanks Russ. And here I thought I had been Jedi Mind Tricked into re-listening to the episode to find the interview that I had apparently slept through

Seriously. I listened late last night and thought maybe I had dosed off and missed the interview so I went through the whole thing again today. Good thing I had minis to paint while doing so!

Brimstone wrote:Still listening but I have to say I love the new segment 'The Score'

Agreed! Great new segment!
Although, if I can make a suggestion. Ken, please turn up the volume on the pieces you play. Maybe it's because I was listening on my computer speakers rather than through my headphones, but the music was so soft I could barely hear it.

Great podcast again!

Jack of all games wrote:

RussWakelin wrote:ALERT: The interview with Norbert inadvertently got left on the cutting room floor! I'll be correcting that tonight, so there will be a replacement version of this episode along with some quick comments on how to quickly find the interview if you've already listened to the show.

Thanks Russ. And here I thought I had been Jedi Mind Tricked into re-listening to the episode to find the interview that I had apparently slept through

Seriously. I listened late last night and thought maybe I had dosed off and missed the interview so I went through the whole thing again today. Good thing I had minis to paint while doing so!

I see you've discovered our clever trick to get everyone to listen to the show twice.

BTW, I love your avatar ship picture. What is that from?

RussWakelin wrote:I see you've discovered our clever trick to get everyone to listen to the show twice.

BTW, I love your avatar ship picture. What is that from?

That is the battleship from my, as yet incomplete, Imperial fleet for Uncharted Seas.



I only need to finish the crusiers, but my friends are dragging me back into Warhammer Fantasy. So, for now, they've taken a back burner to my Lizardmen.

Brimstone wrote:Still listening but I have to say I love the new segment 'The Score'

Jack of all games wrote:Ken, please turn up the volume on the pieces you play. Maybe it's because I was listening on my computer speakers rather than through my headphones, but the music was so soft I could barely hear it.

Thank you both for the kind words. And thank you to the D6G for taking a chance on "The Score"!

Jack, it's funny you say that. I had the same thought when I listened to it. I went back and forth with Craig about the proper levels, and, on my recording, it seems louder. I will work with Russ on this issue. There is a fine balance in not overpowering the spoken track, but still being able to hear the music. Please chalk it up to first-time podcasting and my trial-and-error method of learning Audacity.

Let me know if there are any issues or subjects you would like to The Score to address in the future...

Ken

Tertius wrote:Let me know if there are any issues or subjects you would like to The Score to address in the future...

Ken

Ken

It's a great feature and I'd also agree the volume needs to be higher.

As for future subjects you've got to start with the old favourites Warmachine, Hordes, fantasy (although the uncharted seas segment would fit in a push) and 40K (without having everything with a gregorian chant).

After that maybe you could fit your recommendations around the major review/features Russ & Co have in the particular podcast.

Firstly, I'll take the hit for the volume levels on The Score. In Ken's earlier iterations you couldn't hear him talk for the music's volume, and I'm afraid I encouraged him to over-compensate. But I agree, it's a great segment, well worthy of inclusion, and it's already got a solid (and vocal ) fanbase!

I can sort of see Tarjei (Avian)'s point, a LITTLE bit. There IS a bit of Our Game Right or Wrong feel to the debate. A LITTLE bit. But I (and this is the GW guy . . . I get sick to my stomach whenever PP takes another seeming leap over GW, locally or abroad) also have to agree with Greg (Quozl). PP has always been very up front with everything they've done, and whenever given an opportunity, they've made good with their fanbase.

Partly, I believe, it's because of the size of their company (smaller = more responsive) and their place in the market (emerging = a need to be a cut above in any way you can). We will now see if, having grown to a much larger size, they stay as responsive to their fanbase and agile with their reactions. Already we see that the sorta-kinda release in April isn't an open beta test (from No Quarter) but an 'edit and proofread' test of the new rules.

What we set out to do with our segment was outline the changes and then have a conversation both on the merit of them (both good, I think we all agreed), and the community reaction, which is where we all differed a little bit in our opinion.

Ultimately it's like a relationship. GW's cheated on it's significant other before, but they keep going back. PP's never cheated before, but they haven't been around as long. Similar activity, therefore, will seem more suspicious when it's the guy with the record of infidelity, versus the guy who hasn't cheated . . . yet.

I mostly agree with Russ' somewhat pedantic (easy, tiger, that's not really an insult, it just means lecturing . . . mostly > ) summary here. Mostly. They BOTH have changed their rules, but GW does so in increments, for very specific reasons, and PP is doing a full overhaul, also for very specific reasons.

And as for the debate being different if it was 2 GW guys and 1 PP boy, that'd totally depend on who they were. If it were two rapid GW right or wrong guys versus 1 rapid PP right or wrong guy, then yeah, it would be different. But if it were primarily 3 guys with level heads trying (their best) to be impartial, I'd like to think it'd be roughly the same as we ended up with.

And on a side note . . . I'm pretty sure I brought up that GW had made a bunch of the changes Raef was harping about . . . and I'm pretty sure he agreed with me.

But, here or there, there you are.

Glad you guys are enjoying the podcast still!

Have a day, and Happy Gaming! Gotta go get ready for PaddyCon '09!

~Craig

Clearly I meant 3 RABID gamers, as opposed to gamers who were quite fast.

What can I say? I loaded up the Guinness for tomorrow using the cookie monster aproach: 1 for you, mr. fridge. 1 for me . . .

Thanks for another great podcast guys.

You know, I have to say that I am really tired of every discussion about GW or PP being vs. discussion. Why can't we just talk about one company in isolation? If I get into a discussion with someone about the great figures of Infinity, or about the miniatures that Reaper makes, or the game play of Flames of War, I don't compare those to the games/minis made by either of those two companies.

The gaming world is bigger now than it used to be, and Privateer Press seems here to stay. Maybe we can now discuss their games on their own merits and not in contrast to 40k.

That being said, thanks Russ for reading the most recent page 5. I have to say that page is the biggest obstacle to me getting into Privateer games. To me it feels like the Trash Talk that Craig discussed in the grumpy gamer. Honestly "If you don't like what we're doing you're a whiny, crying baby" is not the best approach to winning me as a customer and enthusiast. Which brings me to another point.

Craig, you're absolutely right, trash talking about violating solid-waste-evacuating-portions of your opponents anatomy really is an alarming and inappropriate fixation scourging the gaming scene today.

Everyone knows proper trash talk is about one's opponent's mother.

Master-Terraformer wrote:

Ultimately it's like a relationship. GW's cheated on it's significant other before, but they keep going back. PP's never cheated before, but they haven't been around as long. Similar activity, therefore, will seem more suspicious when it's the guy with the record of infidelity, versus the guy who hasn't cheated . . . yet.


~Craig

So. Any PARTICULAR reason for this analogy?

Tertius wrote:Jack, it's funny you say that. I had the same thought when I listened to it. I went back and forth with Craig about the proper levels, and, on my recording, it seems louder. I will work with Russ on this issue. There is a fine balance in not overpowering the spoken track, but still being able to hear the music. Please chalk it up to first-time podcasting and my trial-and-error method of learning Audacity.

Let me know if there are any issues or subjects you would like to The Score to address in the future...

Ken

Hey, no worries Ken! I can see where the volume balance would be a hard thing to master. I think it didn't help that those were softer, and more subtle musical offerings this time. Not that they weren't relevant to your subject, of course.
When you start giving us the roaring crescendos that we should play the pivotal turns of our games, then I'm guessing volume balance will be a bit different - Trying to speak above the music

Speaking of which, that would make a great Score subject. What would be your picks for those turns in the game when you're really in the thick of it? The make-or-break turns. For my Warhammer Fantasy games that's usually about turns 4-5.

Looking forward to more!

Now, Malfred. Let's not get nasty.

Those girls are far behind me, and I've gotten over them all . . .

[ALERT]: Norbert issue corrected

Last night I added Norbert's interview back into the show as originally intended. I've uploaded the show back to the site.

Anyone who has downloaded the show AFTER about 11pm EST on 3/20/09 will have the correct version.

If you downloaded the show prior to that, and would like to hear the Norbert interview, just download Episode 27 again. The Norbert interview begins at just after the 54 minute mark.

You'll know if you have the correct Episode 27 because the show length is 3:07 and the file size is just over 87 meg.

Sorry about that and thanks for listening!

-RUss

Hey D6 guys!
Just wanted to say you guys have an awesome podcast! New listener here.
Someone at my local gaming club/league (whatever you want to call it) recommended you, so you know you've got supporters all around the world.
Keep it up~
~Eletj

Master-Terraformer wrote: Already we see that the sorta-kinda release in April isn't an open beta test (from No Quarter) but an 'edit and proofread' test of the new rules.

I don't want to just be siding with PP, so I'll just mention epic Vlad now

Epic Vlad.

Anyways, an open beta IS a proof-read and test. Quiz Russ the engineer, a beta is feature complete and is just for stability testing and user acceptance testing, ie tweaking.

People on the forum started jumping around throwing out suggested changes when they heard about the beta, but that wasn't PP, that was them misunderstanding a beta. It's a good thing too, if things were still just at the taking suggestions stage, release would be a long long way away.

Thanks for putting up the norbert section too. I was a bit puzzled about the references to it in the original version - figured I'd missed one of your mini-not-an-episodes.!

Head's up: anyone who wants to hear the 40k Radio bit about Craig and the "flowers incident" It's episode 35, at the 2:29:00 mark.

These guys are funny, but not quite D6 Level funny.

Ray
Miami, FL by way of Manchester, NH

It appears that the link to d/l Episode 27 is broken. I hope the link gets fixed soon, I like to listen to the show while driving to work.

Santiaghoul wrote:It appears that the link to d/l Episode 27 is broken. I hope the link gets fixed soon, I like to listen to the show while driving to work.

Our hosting provider ran into some kind of problem today. They've told us it should be resolved soon.

Jack of all games wrote:

RussWakelin wrote:I see you've discovered our clever trick to get everyone to listen to the show twice.

BTW, I love your avatar ship picture. What is that from?

That is the battleship from my, as yet incomplete, Imperial fleet for Uncharted Seas.



I only need to finish the crusiers, but my friends are dragging me back into Warhammer Fantasy. So, for now, they've taken a back burner to my Lizardmen.

Great color scheme and paint job. I like the sculpted eagle on the prow. Let me know how your games go. I've just started playing with my human fleet and I really like how they work.

Yeah, it's not playing for me either.

Hi everyone,

I hope you enjoyed the charity gaming segment! If you are interested in hearing more about our store's Foodmachine event and the award ceremony that Privateer Press put on at Templecon, you can hear all about it in Episode 26 of the Iron Agenda podcast. The D6G guys said it was OK to crosspost about their podcast which you can find here: www.ironagenda.com

I'm proud to say, that the NJ SOBs swept all 3 categories of the 2008 Foodmachine event. We collected over 4400 cans and the highest individual contributed 400 cans himself. We were pleased by the outcome and Privateer outdid themselves with beautiful posters.

--Norbert

They're even having a public beta test of the new rules in April!

I am in no way a PP fanboy. I don't like PP games, and I don't play them.

I don't think Games Workshop trusts us to beta-test their rules for them. That upsets me. Their insular, backwards mindset limits them and insults their customer base.

Listen to us GW, we're willing to do ALL your beta testing for you. It won't cost you a thing but pride. Suck it up.

malfred wrote:

Master-Terraformer wrote:

Ultimately it's like a relationship. GW's cheated on it's significant other before, but they keep going back. PP's never cheated before, but they haven't been around as long. Similar activity, therefore, will seem more suspicious when it's the guy with the record of infidelity, versus the guy who hasn't cheated . . . yet.


~Craig

So. Any PARTICULAR reason for this analogy?

I wouldn't think so. Otherwise the show would be down a host.

Ozymandias wrote:Yeah, it's not playing for me either.

I just got the word from our host, the issue has been resolved. I just tested it and things seem to be working again.

Give it a try.

Sup D6 crew. Had a quick question about X-Cam for 40K: I'm seeing talk of generating terrain randomly in the mission .pdf. Is this method of determining the battlefield in the main rulebook? Cause I can't find anything along those lines. Also I think it would be really helpful to see some diagrams of the deployment zones in the missions as a few of these are a bit confusing.

Love the X-Cam though. Asking around now to see who would be interested in our area and will hopefully be able to start something this summer! Keep up the awesome podcast.