Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So I was avoiding work the other day thinking what would be a fun new army to feature in WHFB. And like P4NC4K3, I thought I'd jot my ideas down:

I figured I'd come up with something completely new rather than pre-existing in current WHFB lore. Most other armies not covered by Army Books (Cathay, Kislev, etc) I figured could be more or less represented with current books. Also, it'd have to look fresh (ie, we have enough human and elf factions, etc.) and hopefully focus on a game mechanic that isn't really well used.

Fear-causing was out, since it's already saturating the game. Hatred/ASF are covered by the elves. Skirmishing is handled by Wood Elves and Lizardmen. Cavalry-heavy is already wide-spread. Swarms are pretty much settled. Heavy shooting would be nice to avoid. A stupidity-filled army would be silly. And then I came upon: Flyers.

An army of fliers - to which I thought, Avens/Bird-men whatever you'd like to call them.

Obviously, there would need to be some serious adjustments to make sure that the incredible mobility that such an army would have would not be completely overwhelming.

Balance Ideas:
Downplay shooting - while the army should have some shooting, it should not be a focus of the army. The Avens (henceforth I'll just refer to this army as the Avens) should not really have artillery/warmachines, as it wouldn't be in their nature to build something that lacked their mobility. Similarly, they'd likely not have black-powder weapons, or bows and arrows. Limited to thrown weapons, perhaps (I'm thinking of harpoons/lances).

Fragile - again, to compensate for the speed of the list, the Avens would have to be weaker (but not too weak) and probably not terribly well armored. Probably S3/T3 all around except for some bigger-sized units, and mostly limited to light armor (if any armor). Maybe make up a rule like, "Encumbered Flight" for armored Avens to reduce speed of better armored units.

Points - This would most likely be another "small, elite" army, to ensure that there aren't super-cheap fliers everywhere. Points/model will probably be relatively high.

Army Ideas:
Ranked flying infantry - the models would probably have to be at least on 25mm bases, but would be roughly human-sized. As such, it'd be very interesting to have units of ranked fliers. This is offset somewhat by inability to enter into woods.

Swooping charges - to give them some oomph maybe allow spear-armed units to charge with +1S to signify Avens diving down from above to attack their enemies.

"Wind" Lore - magic would center around manipulating wind, mostly as defensive bonuses (something similar to Shield of Saphery against shooting), one magic missile-type spell (something like sharp bursts of air that can cut enemies) and maybe something that causes an enemy unit to move at half-speed (whether they march, normal move, or charge) their next turn.

Raven swarms/Giant birds - Control of other bird units. A murder of crows could be a unit similar to bat swarms. Should have access to Giant Eagles and Falcons (same stats as in their respective Elf books).

New Monster - Rok - C'mon, how could this army _NOT_ have a GIANT bird?

More ideas/thoughts to come.

Input would be greatly appreciated.

i like it.
you could use the stats for pegasus knights for a heavy hitting unit.

give the giant bird a wind special rule or something like that. enemy has -1/2 to hit as they can´t see or are being blown away.

a slashing attack would be good for some units as well (like the daemon one)

No ranked units.this would just make them to good in a fight.
T3, no armour (even on characters.) Average combat ability, with WS4.
No realy hammerish unit (this army relies on delicate application).

I think every army should have some sort of save from armour or otherwise. U could give em bonus's to saves from shooting and the like but i would definately limit them only to light armour includeing heros and what not. I like the idea of the Roc though. Every army needs a big nasty flying critter that maims and dstroys also a Phonix could be kinda kool as well

An intelligent race of tool using flying creatures would almost assuredly investigate and purue ranged combat as their specialty. They have unmatchable advantages against people who can't fly, and it really helps in trying to stop other members of your own race. Hand to hand combat is even more dangerous for winged combatants than it is for ground based ones, as footsloggers don't have far to fall, and aren't going to always encounter the enemy from any direction in a sphere.

Winged avian creatures, as opposed to those using a strictly magical means of flight, might shy somewhat away from the bow, as pulling the sting back may have an elbow interfere with a flapping wing, so spears, javelins, and very light crossbows (hand crank, attached with leather thongs so they dont lose them).

Increase your shooting range, no penalties for move and shoot, and reduce the enemies range for shooting at you. I'd say half, since arcing shots to get extra range for an airborne target doesn't work so well.

I had a few more thoughts on it, but they get more into what you'd expect if they were able to maintain continuous flight at altitude, and not landing at the end of each turn. That would be seriously unbalancing, more so than everyone being able to move/charge 20, as infantry and calvalry can't possibly engage a foe who refuses to come down and play.

@dancingcricket - good points, and I agree with you that a flying race for the most part will probably shy away from bow-type weapons.

One thing though: I imagine this race to otherwise retain most of their raptor-like instincts and habits. So, while they would be a sentient race, they would likely prefer to fly high above and swoop down from above to attack their prey. In this sense, they'd most likely resort to talons and/or a spear to hit their enemies. In this respect, I feel like they should probably be limited to javelins and harpoons (maybe slings, at most). I figure that while they have the capability of using other ranged weapons, it's not really in their nature to pursue ranged combat. If you've seen nature vids of birds going at each other, it can be pretty vicious aerial combat. Birds are usually pretty smart at bailing out of a free-fall in time to make sure they don't hit the ground.

Also, from a game-balancing point of view, I figure that you'd want to shy away from an INCREDIBLY mobile army from having too much shooting capability, if only because few people would even be able to avoid the shooting. Even simple bow-fire can be incredibly devastating, especially if it occurs in large quantities.

I don't feel like this army would particularly be in need of increased shooting range. Even with a thrown weapon with 6" range, you have to consider that pretty much every unit in this army will be able to fly 20" over any obstacles, and even BEHIND enemy units. I really think that boosting shooting above this would make this list really unbalanced.

Your comments do give me this idea, though:

"Death From Above!" - Avens, like their ancestral birds of prey, always descend from above, using the sun to blind their prey as they go in for the kill. To represent this, Stand and Shoot Reactions may never be taken by an enemy unit charged by Avens. They may Hold or Flee as normal.

Not sure how overpowering this would be, but it would help give them some _slight_ resilience given their lack of armor.


@Crazy_Carnifex: Would ranks make them that good, if they would be more or less WS3-4, T3 with no armor? Except for maybe some Characters and maybe 1-2 units, I probably wouldn't even give them much more than S3. I agree with you - this wouldn't really be an army of hard-hitting elites, rather, it'll be an army that will have to rely on precision targetting of enemy units, but they'll need something to be at least somewhat competitive against some of the harder enemy units (obviously there really shouldn't be a unit in here that competes with Chaos Knights or Black Knights going one-on-one). Maybe limit to gaining at max only +1 rank bonus, no matter how many more ranks they have and limit spear use to front rank (no extra ranks)? I'm loathe to have this list become something that encourages a "Monster-Mash" build.

Even with high mobility, they'll need some amount of armoring or some sort of save. T3 with no save of any kind, even with Flying, would have to call for a non-trivial reduction of points - I don't think this list should be too swarmy and even light shooting would devastate them.

I agree with nieto666 that armor should be limited to light armor, though.

I guess I'm having difficulty deciding on how this all would ideally work out. Clearly, this would be a list to dominate the movement phase. That would be the "gimmick". However, it'll need to hold it's own in at least one more phase of the game. Shooting, I think, would be best to shrink away from, if only to avoid potential abuse of movement + shooting. Which leaves with Magic and Close Combat.

I see the Wind Lore as being more disruptive to enemy/defensive than offensive. As such, it'll probably be used mostly to slow enemy units down/mess up enemy shooting and in general be a nuisance to the opponents, to help set up charges and such. Getting off flank/rear charges will be crucial for this list to work.

Close Combat - there's an extent to which flank/combined charges will work at breaking the enemy. Especially with average stats and little to no armor, these guys can't handle attrition. There's going to have to be some way for these guys to do damage to the tougher units out there.

I think my idea for the +1S with spears on the charge will help this somewhat (though even S4 attacks aren't _that_ worrisome to cavalry rocking out 2+ armor saves), but they'll need a little something else.


I'll have to think about this for a while. I'll try to post up some Magic/Unit ideas over the following days.

Fly-by attacks like screamers would be a good idea. Maybe even drop rocks like Terradons. But limit these to a couple rare choices. Other wise it could get a little over the top.

rather than rank bonus´ have a special rule that certain units can negate ranks. obviously the big birds (phoenix etc) will as they will probably have US5+ but have some of the standard units with the ability to negate ranks. that will compensate for you not having ranks. it will not make them overpowered as they are still lightly armored (and won´t have standards i´m guessing).

if you can´t negate the rank a fully ranked unit would have a static res of 5 (3 ranks, standard, outnumbering) compared to your 1. that means you will have to do 4+ wounds to have a chance of winning combat and with S3 it´s not very likely.
if you can negate the ranks they will have a static res of 2 (standard, outnumbering) compared to your 1. the ranked unit still has the advantage in combat and it will come down to the fighting rather than there being masses of guys around you.

Pheonix proposed rules:
Death throes- When this model is reduced to 0 wounds, place a large blast template over the center of it's base. All models under take a S4 Flameing hit.
Sacred Flames- This creatures attacks count as magical Flameing attacks.

I like the idea of +1 str with spears on the charge. Also seeing how they are flying how many of you out there has tried to shooting something flying through the air with a bow?? I think they should either get a +2 to their save against shooting or -1 to hit. This will help them to not get maimed in the first round of shooting. Glade guard and repeater crossbowmen would have a field day against a low toughness army with no saves against shooting. The basic core choice would look like a Elf
WS: 4 STR:3 TO:3 INT:5 Att:1 LDR:8 flying
Spear, light armour, HW
The other core choice could be like a skirmisher unit with javelins or other thrown weapons. The only two differences between the two would be that the "ranged" unit wouldnt have no access to armour or spears. Im really likeing the idea of this if the points play out right and the army is not over or under bearing it could be really fun to play.

That's more or less the stat-line I had in mind for the basic core choice, though I'd prohibit the light armor for them (thinking it'd be best to limit armor to like 2-3 units max).

How about they all have the Feigned Flight rule, like with fast cav?