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I'm asking this after a post I made in another Topic regarding WD. It raised an interesting point, but one that would have derailed the original topic, yet I wanted to discuss further so I'm creating this new topic!

Now in the other topic people were stating what they wanted from WD and a couple of the answers said less LotR. Now at first I argued against this. LotR is on of my favorite games, it generates allot of money and certainly has the right to exist. Yet for all that there is still a vast amount of unnecessary resentment towards the game many simply don't want it to even exist let alone get so much as a single page of coverage in WD. Ive argued against this but I've realized that this attitude will always exist.

Anyway my mind was cast back to existence of Battle Games in Middle Earth. The GW/Diaostini magazine from a few years ago that exclusively dealt with LotR which contained all the usually Hobby gumph and gave away toys as well. If you collected it, you could, in theory, become a hobbyist with ever having to purchase another thing from GW.

What struck me the most however was that BGIME despite it thin number of pages was busting with the kind of hobby content that WD hasn't had in ages. The terrain making articles were first class and yet achievable. The painting guides was also excellent. The scenarios and gaming ideas were of all different types. mainly narrative in nature and went far beyond the standard tournament style points match. It was, in short, everything WD should be and yet wasn't. It also contained a great deal of veteran gamer material once the magazine was established and the core rules were established and readers miniature collections grew.

I also realized that If BGIME was still being published I would still be subscribing to every issue. Not only that but I wouldn't be in slightest bit bothered by the token amount of coverage LotR gets in WD. It would also keep happy those who simply don't want to read about LotR.

I realize that there are gamers who play both LotR and some of the core games (myself included) but I realize that these are the exception rather than the rule. Generally most LotR games don't go into GW stores is it has been made clear that they are not welcome. Regrettably the same now seem to apply to WD.

So has the time come to bring a dedicated LotR magazine back? One with the same philosophy in terms of quality of articles that BGIME had?

As much as you love the LoTR games, I think it needs the momentum of Games Workshop to survive. For all it faults WD is pretty good at maintaining that momentum, as most Warhammer players will take a look at the LoTR sections out of idle curiosity, leading to crossover by some players. If LoTR disappeared to its own magazine, you would lose that crossover and I don't think it would build much momentum either. It would just be loved by a core group of players such as yourself and would die out when these players decided to go off and do other things.

I enjoy LotR, but wouldn't buy a separate mag. In fact, without LotR content in WD, I might not buy it either.

The LOTR content in WD is the only thing that makes me consider buying it these days.

LuciusAR wrote:I'm asking this after a post I made in another Topic regarding WD. It raised an interesting point, but one that would have derailed the original topic, yet I wanted to discuss further so I'm creating this new topic!

Now in the other topic people were stating what they wanted from WD and a couple of the answers said less LotR. Now at first I argued against this. LotR is on of my favorite games, it generates allot of money and certainly has the right to exist. Yet for all that there is still a vast amount of unnecessary resentment towards the game many simply don't want it to even exist let alone get so much as a single page of coverage in WD. Ive argued against this but I've realized that this attitude will always exist.

Anyway my mind was cast back to existence of Battle Games in Middle Earth. The GW/Diaostini magazine from a few years ago that exclusively dealt with LotR which contained all the usually Hobby gumph and gave away toys as well. If you collected it, you could, in theory, become a hobbyist with ever having to purchase another thing from GW.

What struck me the most however was that BGIME despite it thin number of pages was busting with the kind of hobby content that WD hasn't had in ages. The terrain making articles were first class and yet achievable. The painting guides was also excellent. The scenarios and gaming ideas were of all different types. mainly narrative in nature and went far beyond the standard tournament style points match. It was, in short, everything WD should be and yet wasn't. It also contained a great deal of veteran gamer material once the magazine was established and the core rules were established and readers miniature collections grew.

I also realized that If BGIME was still being published I would still be subscribing to every issue. Not only that but I wouldn't be in slightest bit bothered by the token amount of coverage LotR gets in WD. It would also keep happy those who simply don't want to read about LotR.

I realize that there are gamers who play both LotR and some of the core games (myself included) but I realize that these are the exception rather than the rule. Generally most LotR games don't go into GW stores is it has been made clear that they are not welcome. Regrettably the same now seem to apply to WD.

So has the time come to bring a dedicated LotR magazine back? One with the same philosophy in terms of quality of articles that BGIME had?

Compaired to how the mag USED TO BE?

heh, you could put in Willy Wanka's golden ticket, and the magazine would still be gak.

- Less garbage, more information.
- back to the freebee's in the mag.
- Modeling content, Painting content, gaming content.
- Relevent conversations on, you know... GAMES. !@#$ Jervis and his small minded "vision".
- Maybe drop a couple of artciles that actually have something other then "Oh look at the pretty picture, BUY ME!!"

Your conversation is jaded by the fact that YOU are the LOTR player. Other then that, the magazine is a $9.00 sales tool.

Back in the day there were mag articles about games. Painting tutorials, stories, do it yourself content. ( This is how you make an ork building. This is how you make a bunker...)
Model tactics, New unit profiles, WHITE DWARF ONLY material, pictures, drawings, battles, scenarios, alternative gaming, RPG material, Tabletop material, etc.

Bottom line, there was a reason to buy it.

LOTR is not a main game. Its a marketing ploy that should be alongside the "Specialist games". And as much of a marketing ploy, its only as relevent as the movies are.
The magazine needs to go bacxk to being a springboard to the games, not just a propaganda tool for the Emporer without clothes.

LOTR is more than just the movies. It's the world's biggest fantasy franchise.

Grot 6 wrote:
LOTR is not a main game. Its a marketing ploy that should be alongside the "Specialist games". And as much of a marketing ploy, its only as relevent as the movies are.

QFT

The LOTR game reeks of marketing cheese, and honestly, it's about time to let it die, or at the very least relegate it to the Specialist Games rack. It doesn't make sense to have 2 products competing with each other coming from the same company for you or your parent's hard-earned cash.

Have you played it? Reeks of marketing cheese? Have you seen space marines?

Da Boss wrote:Have you played it? Reeks of marketing cheese? Have you seen space marines?

Played 40K or LOTR?

I've played both. Go get yourself an old WD and compare it to a recent issue, NUff said.

LoTR is actually a lot of fun to play as well as quite easy for a passive gamer to pick up as opposed to 40k or Fantasy.

I only own the mines of moria set plus a few additions but I am definitely intrigued by the War of the Ring apoc style.

I own IG, Tau, Orks, Marines, Eldar, Chaos armies, a minimum of 3k each and at most 12k (IG), so I would say I'm pretty much a 40k player if you were wondering.

My issue with WD is that unless there are b00bies in it I can't really see paying $9.00 an issue...

Grot 6 wrote:

Da Boss wrote:Have you played it? Reeks of marketing cheese? Have you seen space marines?

Played 40K or LOTR?

I've played both. Go get yourself an old WD and compare it to a recent issue, NUff said.

You're blaming WD on LOTR?
Correlation is not causation.
WD is down to the editorial teams. Getting rid of it won't make the magazine any better.

Regardless of whether you like 40k and hate LotR or vice versa, there's no way in hell that GW would split it off into another mag for a few simple reasons:

1) As WD is first and foremost as full-color advertisement for GW's games, GW puts WHFB, WH40K, and LotR material all together in it for one reason - the hope that someone who plays one (or more) genres, but not another, will see something in an article and say, "Hey, I need to check that game out!" WD is all about trying to sell you more models and more rules, be it for the game you already play, or for another one they make.

2) Cost. I can guarantee that WD's not cheap to put together. For all our complaints about it, it's a pretty well assembled rag. And putting together a monthly mag like this (say what you want about its quality) requires the effort of a full time staff. With the economy like it is, GW stores closing their doors and downsizing, GW's in no position to take on the cost of printing a second full-color monthly magazine. Not to mention the fact that you'd need enough material for both mags on a monthly basis. Again, this is not an inconsiderable effort - while there's lots of things they can do (and have done) to bulk things up (army showcases, tournament reports, conversion/painting articles) the cost to do this is more than I'm sure GW wants to invest for a second full magazine.

Don't get me wrong - I used to love Citadel Journal - it was a great alternative to WD. But it's long and dead. I mean, I'd love to see more detailed articles, but I can't see GW being willing to spend the money to do it.

LOTR needs WD to keep new players coming in, for the game to continue to expand.

By a similar reasoning you could say 40k should be branched out of WD as it has gotten too big.

paidinfull wrote:My issue with WD is that unless there are b00bies in it I can't really see paying $9.00 an issue...

I also miss The Fat Bloke.

A rules article would be great. There's more than enough for it to cover - Dark Eldar update, Space Wolves Codex (ala the Blood Angels one), giving Blood Angels and Dark Angels access to Thunderfire Cannons and Redeemers to mark up a few quick sales, introducing a new unit for Necrons to give the army a small sales boost at a time when GW is releasing a Fantasy army (it won't interfere with WFB or cannibalize another army's sales)... You could call it "Chapter Approved" or something to reflect the Space Marine chapters now approving this new equipment.

Having rules and army lists in the mag each month would give a lot more players reason to buy it.

Since people don't like carrying around tons of magazines, at the end of each year, you could bundle the articles together, add a little new content and sell it as a "Chapter Approved Annual".

I wonder why GW has never thought of doing anything like this...

Grot 6 wrote:

LOTR is not a main game. Its a marketing ploy that should be alongside the "Specialist games". And as much of a marketing ploy, its only as relevent as the movies are.
The magazine needs to go bacxk to being a springboard to the games, not just a propaganda tool for the Emporer without clothes.

Dronze wrote:

The LOTR game reeks of marketing cheese, and honestly, it's about time to let it die, or at the very least relegate it to the Specialist Games rack. It doesn't make sense to have 2 products competing with each other coming from the same company for you or your parent's hard-earned cash.

Oh please. What total and utter Gak.

LotR may have been primarily introduced as a result of the films and the new imagery invented as a result. But its one hell of allot more than a marketing tool. In fact in terms of flexibility and intuitiveness of rules, balance of factions and miniature sculpting techniques is arguably the most mature of GW 3 core games. I'm not some kind of fanboi, I play and enjoy WFB and 40K as well, I'm just calling it how I see it.

I realise that to the casual observer LotR may appear simplistic and lacking in tactical options. However if you hold this opinion it just shows you haven't studied the game properly. In terms of on table options LotR has more tactical possibilities than your average game of WFB. Far more. Also It worth noting that outside of GW's core circles and in the historical gaming crowd LotR is generally respected and is regarded as the best of GW rulesets along with Warmaster. It's why many LotR players don't turn up at GW stores. Many just simply aren't your typical GW gamers.

Rather than go through it here I'm going to provide a link to a page which spells it out more efficiently than I can. If you honestly think poorly of LotR then I challenge you to read the link below. Seriously. If after reading it you still not convinced to rethink you opinion than fair enough. But I implore you to read it.

http://www.angelfire.com/rings/firstwarofthering/WarhammerLotR.html

Oh and for the record it IS a core game and no amount of resentment and whinging will change this. WotR is enjoying allot of play at my LFGS and people who have never played the SBG before are picking up armies. Hate to break it to you, but its going nowhere!

White Dwarf just needs better content, period.

Every month there needs to be some worthwhile content for 40K, WFB, and LoTR.

GW doesn't need to produce different mags covering different games. They need to make a magazine for GW hobbyists that is worth reading.

Da Boss wrote:

Grot 6 wrote:

Da Boss wrote:Have you played it? Reeks of marketing cheese? Have you seen space marines?

Played 40K or LOTR?

I've played both. Go get yourself an old WD and compare it to a recent issue, NUff said.

You're blaming WD on LOTR?
Correlation is not causation.
WD is down to the editorial teams. Getting rid of it won't make the magazine any better.

Never said that. Im blaming WD on being an utter waste of time and effort in need of serious retooling.

Necromunda and Space Hulk were once mainstream, as well.

So was Epic.

Your point is lost after the first question of asking if I've played both. The point of the conversation is asking if LOTR needs its own content.

It already has it, its called J.R.R.Tolkin.

He wrote the books, in case you missed it someplace.

I think he was taking issue with statements exuding ignorant bs such as it reeking of 'marketing cheese.' It's always amusing how people who have never even touched the game seem to think they know so much about it.

I have been playing 40k now for about 3 years. I think it is a bad representation of future warfare, but I have a lot fo fun playing it. I also happen to be a huge fan of LOTR the books (having read through the series several times). I was never interested in the game before because I heard so many negatives about it. I am also confused as to what I would need to get started in it and which rule book is better. I understand, perhaps incorrectly that there are several different rule books (one for skirmishes, one for larger battles, etc...) and was wondering which one is the most fun as well, most balanced, allows for the most freedom. Please enlighten me.

Dronze wrote:

Grot 6 wrote:
LOTR is not a main game. Its a marketing ploy that should be alongside the "Specialist games". And as much of a marketing ploy, its only as relevent as the movies are.

QFT

The LOTR game reeks of marketing cheese, and honestly, it's about time to let it die, or at the very least relegate it to the Specialist Games rack. It doesn't make sense to have 2 products competing with each other coming from the same company for you or your parent's hard-earned cash.

Not the same product. Your ignorance is showing.

LOTR is a skirmish game, very different from WFB. It actually may be the best game engine GW has, and is being used by many other systems, especially historical players. The upcoming War of the Ring is again a different game, and very different from WFB. WotR is already accelerating sales of the LOTR figures, which is good for GW and Independent shops. If those shops make money, it's easier to weather the current crappy economy.

Could Dakka, indeed the internet, stand the whining over two magazines each month produced by GW ?

From a sales POV, surely only really 40K and it's associated games could successfully spin off ? At least the two fantasy systems GW have can "share" similar articles on things like terrain, seige engine building, painting etc etc much more successfully than 40K players ?

The new WOTR game plays very well, I actually find myself quite looking forward to reading articles about it, the Pelennor (sp ?) fields battle report was pretty sweet, and looked very impressive.

Bodichi wrote:I have been playing 40k now for about 3 years. I think it is a bad representation of future warfare, but I have a lot fo fun playing it. I also happen to be a huge fan of LOTR the books (having read through the series several times). I was never interested in the game before because I heard so many negatives about it. I am also confused as to what I would need to get started in it and which rule book is better. I understand, perhaps incorrectly that there are several different rule books (one for skirmishes, one for larger battles, etc...) and was wondering which one is the most fun as well, most balanced, allows for the most freedom. Please enlighten me.

There are two games: The skirmish game, and the new mass battle game (War of the Ring). The big skirmish rulebook gives you all you need to play, everything else is supplemental (extra troops for your factions etc). War of the Ring is complete too- rules for all currently available models. To start, a plastic boxed set and a hero or two is fine.
It's a good game, in my opinion, but the only way you'll know for yourself is to demo it. I recommend asking in your local shop, or proxying 40K models to get a feel for the game and how you like it.

Grot Six: You haven't been reading my posts correctly, or something. I feel like you're arguing with a paralell universe me.
*mutters remember rule one under his breath*

Grot 6 wrote:It already has it, its called J.R.R.Tolkin.

He wrote the books, in case you missed it someplace.

It's Spelt Tolkien

Tolkien Wrote the books (with help from his son)

Tolkin wrote a crime novel that was adapted into a film

paidinfull wrote:

My issue with WD is that unless there are b00bies in it I can't really see paying $9.00 an issue...

With the average cost of skin magazines cheaper than WD, is it anywonder >??

LoTR is a main game, it accounts for 12% of total GW sales from what I have been told.