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I was wondering what everyone thought of thousand sons guarding objectives. I always see (and have used) plauge marines to guard objectives but was wondering what people thought about the thought of thousand sons superior shooting and 4+ I save vs toughness 5 and feel no pain? The TS would be a nightmare for MEQ advancing to the objective with thier AP3 bolters. They aren't nearly as good in close combat as plague marines and they aren't as good against armour, but the sorcers has a force weapon and psychic power. Just pondering their usefulness.

any thoughts?

Plague marines will outlast any army that isn't built around AP2. TS will survive for a while, but not nearly as long as PM will.
TS are great at holding objectives, based on the shooty nature and high inv. save, but they don't outshine Nurgle's Finest.

Plague marines win by a narrow margin on this one, only because they'll sit on an objective and take the charge without too much issue, and will do so amazingly well for the points when compared to 1kS, who require a 60 pt leader BEFORE he takes upgrades.

While the AP3 bolters are nice, they're still (for chaos) a mediocre CC choice that won't be able to handle more than a single squad, and won't likely turn that squad of marines into a smear in just one turn of firing...

That being said, they make an amazing tarpit, and with some decent rolls, can fire those AP3 bolters twice at 12" and still get the charge.

The trouble with 1Ksons is that you can get a 4+ save from sitting in cover. Why should i pay the points for it when for the save cost i can get T5 and FNP. Why should i pay for AP3 bolters when the guys I'm shooting at will get a decent save anyway. Force weapons are all well and good, but not as good as powerfists. Psyckic powers are fun, but not as good as two special weapons. 5th edition signed the death warrant for 1Ksons and it will remain this way until the cover rules change or chaos get a new codex, neither of which is going to happen any time soon.

The Thousand Suns get a 4+ Invulnerable saving throw, which means they won't be eaten alive by Power Weapons, Power Fists, and Monstrous Creatures in close combat. Or Melta guns, or Missile Launchers, Battlecannons, Demolisher Cannons, or Plasma Cannons, or Vengeance Rounds, or Flamestorm Cannons, or Assault Terminators, or Power Klaws, or Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons.

The Wind of Chaos and 18 AP3 Bolter shots is far superior to two Flamethrowers and 16 Bolter shots. Both Warptime and Gift of Chaos are great with an Aspiring Sorcerer. If the units you're shooting at are getting a cover save, you fail as a player because 1. you're shooting at the wrong units, 2. you haven't cleared the screening units, and 3. I'm sure I'll think of something.

Warptime is good because it can be combined with the Sorcerer's psychic shooting attacks and his Force Weapon. A Force Weapon with Warptime is better than a Power Fist, in terms of causing Instant Death, because it attacks at initiative with re-rolls to hit. Gift of Chaos can be cast twice, and is Instant Death +.

If you want anti-armour, there's the Bolt of Change, which is like a Multi-melta at range, except it's an Assault weapon. Warptime fits nicely with it, re-rolling to hit, if not the armour roll. The Wind of Chaos is vaguely anti-armour, but only enough so stun, shake, or damage a vehicle.

Also, the Thousand Suns get their full range when they move, and as Dronze notes, they can charge after shooting (admittedly they need to considering the lack of close combat weapons, pistols, and I2+ when they charge, except for the Sorcerer, that is...).

my 2 cents,

plague marienes are better than Tsons for the following (but honestly it just depends on personal preference)

1) T5 and FNP - the gap from Str 4 to 5 is huge as most basic guns are Str 4. So that means you need 5's to wound, Tsons will be wounded like normal CSM
2) PlaguesThey can gain the benifit of cover saves, if something beats the Plagues armour and they are in cover they still get cover, Tsons just get their invounerable (albeit its the same as a cover save)
3) Plagues have more manoverability (no rhinos), they get 6"+Run, so they can get to objectives faster then Tsons on average
4) Plagues have more squad options and do better in CC, Tsons lack of options really limits their roll to infantry killers and what the sorcerers abilitys are
5) Plagues are chaper (which is saying something), which then frees up more room for things like obliterators
6) With the abundance of cover, or cover producing wargear, AP 3 bolters will typically not be worth it unless you lash things out of cover or your opponent is stupid.

Casper wrote:my 2 cents,

plague marienes are better than Tsons for the following (but honestly it just depends on personal preference)

1) T5 and FNP - the gap from Str 4 to 5 is huge as most basic guns are Str 4. So that means you need 5's to wound, Tsons will be wounded like normal CSM
2) PlaguesThey can gain the benifit of cover saves, if something beats the Plagues armour and they are in cover they still get cover, Tsons just get their invounerable (albeit its the same as a cover save)
3) Plagues have more manoverability (no rhinos), they get 6"+Run, so they can get to objectives faster then Tsons on average
4) Plagues have more squad options and do better in CC, Tsons lack of options really limits their roll to infantry killers and what the sorcerers abilitys are
5) Plagues are chaper (which is saying something), which then frees up more room for things like obliterators
6) With the abundance of cover, or cover producing wargear, AP 3 bolters will typically not be worth it unless you lash things out of cover or your opponent is stupid.

You cherry picked all of the reasons why the Death Guard are better, but you didn't list any of the points where the Thousand Sons are better.

Also you went into detail about why the Death Guard are more durable than the Thousand Sons. I think that we can all agree that they are.

But no where in your argument is how much damage (or any damage) can the Death Guard can do. The reason why is that they can't do any damage. They are (for the most part) a durable unit that camps out on objectives. The Thousand Sons (with they help of the Sorcerer) can do a lot more damage.

So if you want to know which is better? Death Guard if your only measurement is what is better on an objective.

But if you ask the question which one is a better unit all around, then you might get a different answer.

Chaos already have a ton of stuff that can dish out the pain, you might as well make your few objective holding units good at their job rather than have them be better at shooting which there are better alternatives for.

Plague marines are superior objective holders.
T'sons are not bad, as has been insinuated, and I have had little problem shooting troops without a cover save. You have to pressure them out of cover with other units/armor. I like to tank shock (rhino run) them out of cover and blast them with the T'sons. The kill marines dead.

Nurglitch wrote:Also, the Thousand Suns get their full range when they move, and as Dronze notes, they can charge after shooting (admittedly they need to considering the lack of close combat weapons, pistols, and I2+ when they charge, except for the Sorcerer, that is...).

Just checked it, 1kS are I4... meaning that, initiative-wise, they're likely to fare a touch better than the Plague marines in the first round....

Nurglitch wrote:The Thousand Suns get a 4+ Invulnerable saving throw, which means they won't be eaten alive by Power Weapons, Power Fists, and Monstrous Creatures in close combat. Or Melta guns, or Missile Launchers, Battlecannons, Demolisher Cannons, or Plasma Cannons, or Vengeance Rounds, or Flamestorm Cannons, or Assault Terminators, or Power Klaws, or Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons.

The Wind of Chaos and 18 AP3 Bolter shots is far superior to two Flamethrowers and 16 Bolter shots. Both Warptime and Gift of Chaos are great with an Aspiring Sorcerer. If the units you're shooting at are getting a cover save, you fail as a player because 1. you're shooting at the wrong units, 2. you haven't cleared the screening units, and 3. I'm sure I'll think of something.

Warptime is good because it can be combined with the Sorcerer's psychic shooting attacks and his Force Weapon. A Force Weapon with Warptime is better than a Power Fist, in terms of causing Instant Death, because it attacks at initiative with re-rolls to hit. Gift of Chaos can be cast twice, and is Instant Death +.

If you want anti-armour, there's the Bolt of Change, which is like a Multi-melta at range, except it's an Assault weapon. Warptime fits nicely with it, re-rolling to hit, if not the armour roll. The Wind of Chaos is vaguely anti-armour, but only enough so stun, shake, or damage a vehicle.

Also, the Thousand Suns get their full range when they move, and as Dronze notes, they can charge after shooting (admittedly they need to considering the lack of close combat weapons, pistols, and I2+ when they charge, except for the Sorcerer, that is...).

Big woop they are better against power weapons but seeing as 90% of the attack ever made in CC dont ignore armour saves, ill take my chance with T5 and FNP thanks. Against shooting I dont care if stuff ignores my FNP, ill be in cover anyway (the OP did specify on objectives, which are usually in cover), and if stuff ignores my cover i have T5 and FNP.

1Ksons are better aginst marines out of cover (marines should have enough bodies not to care anyway, but i digress) but are they better gainst orks, i hear theyre popular with the kids these days? No. What about tyranids i see lots of those running around. No. But you can kill marines, and i know chaos armies have all sorts of trouble doing that, with their plasma cannon and their demon princes and their berzerkers.

I will admit that a squad of 1KSons running around in a rhino with wind of chaos can be very good if you manage to surprise your opponent, but for holding objectives? Not a chance.

Dronze wrote:Just checked it, 1kS are I4... meaning that, initiative-wise, they're likely to fare a touch better than the Plague marines in the first round....

Thousand Sons are always Init 1 on the charge because their S&P rule forces them to take a Difficult Terrain check and they have no grenades.

This isn't a complicated analysis. Ksons and PMarines (and berserkers and noise marines and possessed) do different things well, and there's no confusion about that. They all cost about 300 points for a rhino full with the right upgrades, which is how you should be fielding them. Just pick which of those things you want and Bob's your uncle.

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

40kenthusiast wrote:This isn't a complicated analysis. Ksons and PMarines (and berserkers and noise marines and possessed) do different things well, and there's no confusion about that. They all cost about 300 points for a rhino full with the right upgrades, which is how you should be fielding them. Just pick which of those things you want and Bob's your uncle.

And the OP asked about a single specific "thing"; that is holding an objective.

Plague Marines are, in nearly all circumstances, superior in holding objectives; especially if the objective is in cover.

Blackmoor wrote:[

So if you want to know which is better? Death Guard if your only measurement is what is better on an objective.

But if you ask the question which one is a better unit all around, then you might get a different answer.

True, but what was the OP asking about?


Coming from the perspective of going up against Chaos. I would *much* rather have to dislodge a unit of 1ksuns from an objective, than a unit of PMarines. 1ksuns are much MUCH easier to drop with massed firepower than PMs.

1ksons can more readily dislodge another unit from an objective, too... and there's certainly something to be said for that.

Dronze wrote:1ksons can more readily dislodge another unit from an objective, too... and there's certainly something to be said for that.

So how do you propose Thousand Sons dislodge a unit from an objective while holding one themselves? Potshots from over 12"?

Dronze wrote:1ksons can more readily dislodge another unit from an objective, too... and there's certainly something to be said for that.

If the objective is in the open then yes, their AP3 bolters will go to work nicely. However most objectives are in cover (or at least when I play they are) so their AP3 bolters are just like normal ones. Since they are SaP they tend not to be albe to just run to objectives quick enough to dislodge them in CC (even if they did thier sorc is awsome but the rest of the squad lacks the CC attacks to kill much).

Plague Marines bolters are just as effective at shooting at units in cover, while not steller in assult (thats what bezerkers are for) they have enough attacks to make it worth concidering charging with them.

From an Eldar and orks persepective, I would much rather have to kick 1ksons off of an objective, than deal with PMs babysitting hte same objective. Do not discount T5 FNP. Even if my units get through the toughness of PMs, the FNP is just too good to kill them easily.

Even my Seer Council hates dealing with PMs... I wound on a 2+ great! Then they get a 3+ save followed by 4+ FNP.

And for my Orks...unless it is my Nobs with 3 PKs in the unit, PMs are just rediculous, especially after the first round of combat, when the boyz drop to S3.

1ksons are MUCH easier for Eldar and Okrs to dislodge, because niether army worry about invuls (for the most part). They are all about massive numbers of attacks, either from Boyz (orks) or tons of S6 firepower and Witchblades (eldar).

Casper wrote:

Dronze wrote:1ksons can more readily dislodge another unit from an objective, too... and there's certainly something to be said for that.

If the objective is in the open then yes, their AP3 bolters will go to work nicely. However most objectives are in cover (or at least when I play they are) so their AP3 bolters are just like normal ones.

Who the hell is placing the objectives in cover? The objective faerie? Heck, in the games I play I follow the rules were it says that I get to place half of the objectives and I get to place them out in the open.

Since they are SaP they tend not to be albe to just run to objectives quick enough to dislodge them in CC (even if they did thier sorc is awsome but the rest of the squad lacks the CC attacks to kill much).

Run? Who the heck is running? If I wanted to clear an objective, I just drive up in my rhino, lay down the WoC template, and rapid-fire the bolters, and that normally frees it up.

Plague Marines bolters are just as effective at shooting at units in cover

Except when they are moving, or they if they have a 3+ save, or if they want to assault, or...

while not steller in assult (thats what bezerkers are for) they have enough attacks to make it worth concidering charging with them.

Not stellar in assault? That is correct.