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If the Guard codex turns out to be a serious shooting army, will Space Marine Vanguard all of a sudden see a bit more worth in their primary ability? Will it justify the cost?

Everything I've seen concerning the Guard codex still leaves them heinously open to a successful Vanguard multi-charge. If infantry guard become the 'next' horde list, I see vanguard's viability shoot up "just a little bit".

...of course maybe I drank too much tonight....

Maybe Vanguards without upgrades.

But by the same note, would not C:SM daemons be much more viable too?

You probably just drank too much
Vanguard usually don't make up their points as it is, now imagine against guard...

Tactical squads will be able to multi-charge guard even more succesfully, as you might not actually wipe out all the guardsmen, giving you a good opportunity to be in CC during guard shooting. If you want/like/need jump packs, regular assault squads are pretty dirt cheap right now, but they do cut into your mobile multi-melta capability, which is an important aspect of the marine list.

Meh, I think you're betting off DS a couple squads of AssTerms into his (our... ) lines.

Thank goodness for cheap inquisitors with mystics and tanks with lots of plasma shots

If I felt worried about deep strikers being a serious threat I would take a 32 point inquisitor and mystic friends to ensure all deep strikers are met with 5 plasma cannon shots.

Of course, with IG gunnery as it is, firing half a dozen plasma shots in the middle of your army won't end too well...

Oh wait, it's just my tank crews who do that, not all IG.

Vanguard, not so much, but drop podding ironclads...oh mamma. The ironclad as also fairly useful against other armies too.

Maybe, although they'd really be reaching if you gave them a lot of their potential upgrades. A friend who I credit as being far better than I said, for unit size, 'go big or go home' for anything you expect to survive. So.... figure a 10man Vanguard. 225 points. Add in a Drop Pod to ensure guaranteed Deep Strike potential and you're up to 260.

Not a bad price for a potential first turn assault. Throw in a cheap-o Sternguard/DropPod with Combi-Meltas/meltas to make a shot at taking on any tanks and also to draw any of that Inquisitor-spawned anti-drop fire.

And if that indeed occured... don't have the Witchhunter rules with me, but would that be shots at the Drop Pod itself, or the guys after they disembark? Either way, getting in on the IG quickly (in my mind) at least gets 'something' on them early. Toss in a Dread with MM as well to come in via reserve rolls (or switch with the sternguard, let them come in later) and...

Well, I see Vanguard as being an additional unit to drop in against shooty armies like IG, Tau, hell even Ork Lootas, and just beating the snot out of them early on in the game before too much damage can be meted out.

I'll have to try it.

cmagee79 wrote:Maybe, although they'd really be reaching if you gave them a lot of their potential upgrades. A friend who I credit as being far better than I said, for unit size, 'go big or go home' for anything you expect to survive. So.... figure a 10man Vanguard. 225 points. Add in a Drop Pod to ensure guaranteed Deep Strike potential and you're up to 260.

Not a bad price for a potential first turn assault. Throw in a cheap-o Sternguard/DropPod with Combi-Meltas/meltas to make a shot at taking on any tanks and also to draw any of that Inquisitor-spawned anti-drop fire.

And if that indeed occured... don't have the Witchhunter rules with me, but would that be shots at the Drop Pod itself, or the guys after they disembark? Either way, getting in on the IG quickly (in my mind) at least gets 'something' on them early. Toss in a Dread with MM as well to come in via reserve rolls (or switch with the sternguard, let them come in later) and...

Well, I see Vanguard as being an additional unit to drop in against shooty armies like IG, Tau, hell even Ork Lootas, and just beating the snot out of them early on in the game before too much damage can be meted out.

I'll have to try it.

Vanguard can't assault on the turn they deepstrike unless they arrive via jump-packs. Drop pods don't let them use "heroic intervention.

willydstyle wrote:Vanguard can't assault on the turn they deepstrike unless they arrive via jump-packs. Drop pods don't let them use "heroic intervention.

Bah, scratch that idea then.

I want to say yes, because vanguard are cool. but I can't. After looking at the codex (assembled from rumors) there will be two types of comeptitive troops choices in guard armies.

Veterans in chimeras

veterans in vendettas/valkyries

3x infantry squads merged with a commissar.


Two units in transports, and a 30 man leadership 10 (possibly with re-roll) stubborn unit.


Small elite close combat units won't have anything tasty to charge against guard.

The best thing you can do with them is equip a very small unit with as much anti-tank as you can muster and H.I. off of a drop pod beacon near the artillery. If you can't make the charge that turn, you are done-zo.

Why take a squad of vanguard when you can just take a squad of Assault Marines with 2 flamers for less than that cost. Or hell take Bike squads.,

Sgt. Salt wrote:You probably just drank too much
Vanguard usually don't make up their points as it is, now imagine against guard...

IMO this is the biggest fallacy about 5th edition yet; That a unit 'must make it's points back' to be worth taking. I'm going to quote myself from a similar thread, to avoid re-typing:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/230727.page#589238

Lordhat wrote:I think this has become the most important rule in 40k 5th ed. Don't be afraid to lose ANY unit you field. I catch a lot of flak about my 'overcosted' Vangaurd squad, how they 'die too easy' and 'don't make their points back'. The latter REALLY gets my goat, as outside of tournaments, the points you pay are meaningless to the result of the game. A VV squad is one KP. So is an Assault Terminator squad, so is.... you get the point. Each unit you field should have a purpose for that game. The combination of purposes should lead to the win. If your units do what you planned on them doing, instead of what your opponents plans on them doing, then they have 'made their points back', regardless of what, if anything, they have killed.

Sure I've had a few games where my VV's didn't do a lot, (but they always accomplish their mission, even if it is to inflicts several wounds and then die), but I've also had a few games where they have killed triple their points worth of models (after accomplishing their task).

As long as you have a good strategy, that can flex to the changing battle, and clear goals for each unit, don't be afraid to give up "VP's" to get the win.

Vanguard will do even more horribly against Guard than other armies for the simple reason that anybody worth their salt playing a dedicated gunline (the only army type vulnerable to Vanguard Vets) at a competitive level will spend the extra 32 points to get an Inquisitor with Mystics and 30 points for the Officer of the Fleet to prevent reserves arriving.

Even if the Vets land on target (sometime during turn 3-4), they will eat multiple blasts from a Leman Russ Squadron and die on arrival.

Drop pods have more utility because half of them show up first turn and leaving "everything in reserve" isn't really doable for a dedicated gunline, but again, Inquisitor with Mystics next to 3 Vendettas will have a very, very good chance of immobilizing/destroying it when it drops in.

If Mystics aren't part of the equation, then okay, different story, but for the life of me I can't think of any good reason why they wouldn't be.

But with the new codex, will Inquisitors still be necessary? The new HQs look mighty good and the psycher squad looks good in a chimera.

AdeptSister wrote:But with the new codex, will Inquisitors still be necessary? The new HQs look mighty good and the psycher squad looks good in a chimera.

Considering we can take an Elite Inq with 2 mystics for 32 pts, and the rest of our elites are... mediocre at best :(

Yes, you will still be seeing a lot of Inq/2mystics in any IG gunline worth it's salt.

Perhaps. I personally tend to play gunliney, and one that is worth its salt IMO, and yet the INQ is one of first things to get kicked out of any list. I've just managed to top out at 11-13 KP (depending on how much I actually merge), and putting two more back in again für a meagre return* isn't a good idea.


* 4d6 isn't causing that much trouble when there's only one INQ and you're not bunching up.

It's still a giant area-denial bubble. Inquisitor/Mystics were fairly effective with the old IG codex, being able to point a LR Demo or lascannon HW squad at anything with the moxy to DS within 14" of your fortified center. With the advent of squadrons and a vehicle (Vendetta) that makes for an excellent anti-armor platform, Inquisitor/Mystics effectiveness basically triples (3x LR shooting, 3x Vendetta shooting).

How powerful would a 32 pt piece of wargear that didn't let anyone Deep Strike within 14" of your guys be? Everyone would take it in competitive lists because it's a no-brainer. On their worst day, that's what the DH Inq/Mystic combo is. It's a powerful psychological barrier for your opponent. Against Daemons, Crisis Tau, and certain drop Marine builds, it just shuts them down.

I hear what you're saying about kill points, but Ive featured these guys in my list for a long time, and they hardly ever die. It's so difficult to hunt down 3 dudes.

Whatever new dex comes out won't change how unreliable and pricey Vanguard are.

66% of the time you will scatter
7 being the most common scatter = likely mishap or out of assault range

Love the models though...

Oh hell no, Vanguard are stupid expensive, sure even if you drop them accurately and butcher a unit of guard, following turn your going to get lit up by lasguns.

You might as well just spam out flamers with Vulkan and call it a day since flamers and meltas are the best weapons in the game currently.

AgeOfEgos wrote:Whatever new dex comes out won't change how unreliable and pricey Vanguard are.

66% of the time you will scatter
7 being the most common scatter = likely mishap or out of assault range

Love the models though...

You can't really plan to use H.I. unless you have a locator beacon network. So I'd say 100% of the time you'll be scatter free.

Whether or not I'd rather just have a bunch of hflamer/mmelta speeders instead is another topic

Only efective use of Vanguard I've seen is as a potential first turn assault unit with Shrike and a chaplain with jump packs. They set up 18 inches away and then get first turn assaults on every unit in range. Of course if they go second.......

The issue people have with vangaurd is that they're too expensive to make into an uber killy unit of death. They're best kept as cheap as possible and need to be used wisely. They're not a kill all unit, but need to be used as support. They're great for jumping in on combats and turning the tide of them. They can also be used to drop in and take out dangerous units like broadsides and heavy weapon squads. They can't be used in a context of having to get their points back but in a context of that they have an ability that no one else has and can use it to help the rest of the army. The issue of scattering makes them not the most reliable thing, but they can be a game changer if used in the right circumstances.

Scout bikers can bring a locator beacon to most any spot on the table at the end of turn 1 (48" from your deployment zone, or only 24" from your table edge if Dawn of War). So you can use them to make a serious and coordinated push on one end of the battleline. Also, and possiby even more powerful depending on how people tend to play at your area, if your opponent knows you have the locator beacon + vanguards in reserve, you can use the scoutbikers as a psychological weapon, forcing your opponent to spend a lot of effort to avoid or kill them.

Of course, against IG, those scout bikers alone could probably steamroll anything in their way in close combat.