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As the title mentions, I would like to hear what experienced players think on how champion/veterans and there equivalent should be tweaked. For example, with Dwarven thunderers and quarrellers, the first thing would be to give the veteran a second ranged attacked, not an additional close combat attack, so that he might be more worthwhile taking.

Any other thoughts?

i think most infantry champs are ok. you can not give a champ an extra shooting attack. it is not logically possible. they do usually get +1BS.

i do think most cav champions are too expensive for what is really +1 attack. e.g. tomb kings chariot champion is 20points. who wants to pay 20 points for +1 attack when two equals a whole chariot.
they can take and issue challenges however which is the greatest strength they have.

In most cav units they are useless w/o a character. For rank and file troops, it guarantees you at least his attacks. Which can do huge amounts for cr.

I can't really think of any improvements that would be sensible.

They should make champions valid for Eye of the Gods.

I say that champions should add 1 to their unit's leadership to a maximum of 9

Yes, I agree that ranged units usually get a +1 BS, like High Elf archers, and that would be fine for Dwarf thunderers and quarrellers, rather than a second attack. But these ranged units need something because it is not worth 10 points to make one a veteran when there are no bonuses for the main purpose of the unit.

I do think that +1 LD would be a nice addition to champions.

It would make ranged fire champs more of a consideration.

It improves rally options with musicians. (If you have your leader -and- your drum beating, it only stands to reason that you have a better chance at rallying.)

It does put some odd issues in with demons and undead, improving instability tests and crumbling, and I'm not sure that side effect would be warrented.

I think +1 LD in Fantasy is too significant a boost for that champion. And as a Dwarf player, while it would be nice to get that +1 BS, it *is* kinda characterful to have +1 A instead.

I'm curious on the "guarantees attacks back" bit. I guess I haven't played in some time, but I always thought you could designate some attacks to go to the champion. In other words, always makes sense to throw at least one, in case you kill him, but that way there's no lost wounds if you throw to many. Am I wrong on this?

RZ

You can target him directly, just like any character. But he doesn't just die and have someone else take up his position like a banner or musc.

Right... so a champion is necessarily 'guaranteed' attacks back, though he does give you a better shot at swinging back (if they fluff the one they throw at him) or absorbing casualties (if they throw extra at him for some reason).

RZ

Or they can just give the champions double the amount of attack the unit has. So for the units with 2 attacks, champion would get 4 instead of 3 and so on.

Champs can be killed and once they are dead they stay dead. No one becomes a unit champ out of no where..

LunaHound wrote:
Or they can just give the champions double the amount of attack the unit has. So for the units with 2 attacks, champion would get 4 instead of 3 and so on.

That would be terrifying, because then heroes would have to have a higher attack value as a way to distinguish them from champions.. But I really like the idea of a Scar Veteran getting 5-6 strength 5 attacks without any extras.

Champs can be killed and once they are dead they stay dead. No one becomes a unit champ out of no where..

Unless you're VC in which case means endless streams of Ghasts wearing down your hero after being killed and summoned again.

Maybe putting champs in the same boat as the beastmen Wargor, giving them +1 strength, attack and LD?

I would never give up my Chaos Knight Champion with MoK, even when things looks grim his 4 attacks usually butchers the champion he is facing in a challenge giving me a 4 point overkill towards cr

Savage Orc Boss - 4 S5 attacks first round, then either 4 S4 if things went well and you inexplicably stood your ground regardless, or 3 S4 if I stuffed up and didn't panel your unit in the previous round

I'll stick with that thank you very much!