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Hi guys, quick question

Could two libbys theretically join the same unit so it could DS, shoot, DS out?

Also, does GoI ping onto locator beacons?

Cheers

They cannot DS, jump, DS. The power is used in lieu of movement.

Yes they can use Locator Beacons. They are placed as if deep striking, and units deep striking within six inches of a Beacon do not scatter.

WingWong wrote:Could two libbys theretically join the same unit so it could DS, shoot, DS out?

No, GoI is used in the Movement Phase, nowhere else.

WingWong wrote:Also, does GoI ping onto locator beacons?

I actually disagree here.

The rules for locator beacons state(With added bold):

Page 67 wrote:If a unit wishes to arrive on the battlefield via deep strike and chooses to do so within 6" of a model carrying a locator beacon, then it won't scatter

Now, GoI is very specifically worded:

Page57 wrote:The Librarian, and any unit he is with, are removed from the tabletop and immediately placed back together anywhere within 24" using the deep strike rules

GoI Does not say "they then Arrive via Deep Strike". A Locator beacon can only be used for a Unit arriving onto the battlefield Via Deep Strike. The Librarian was already on the board, so cannot "arrive" by deep strike at all. He is instead placed using the Deep Strike rules. This is a Subtle but very important difference.

-Waits for my chorus of screaming fangirls to come call me TFG for following the rules-

Thats a very good point Gwar & the specific wording of arrive could well imply that this only happens once, at the beginning of the game.

Sadly.. using this idea and going by the BGB, in the second paragraph explaining the rules of DS, its pretty vague and makes no allowances for units that can DS multiple times in a game yet it still uses the word arrive.

...in the position you would like the unit to arrive, ...

- p95 BGB

...If a unit wishes to arrive on the battlefield via deep strike and...

- P67 Sm dex

So it could be a case of context? Does the use of battlefield imply it can only happen once where-as simply stating to arrive at a location can be done once or an infinite number of times without the changing the meaning.

Because of the direct link between the SM dex & the BGB with the wording used and the lack of coherency between the two.. Id have to say its still fine by RAW (Although that wording in the SM dex is by far the best counter-arguement against) to use a locator beacon to work with GoI.

Codex trumps Rulebook

The codex wording states the unit is "placed using the deep strike rules". While the rules use the word "Arrive" it's being used in a different meaning (yay for English). It doesn't mean arrive as in "It arrives by deep strike" it means arrive as "Where the model appears." Again, very subtle differences in wording that is an inherent problem with the English Language (why cant we all speak Esperanto ffs)

Of course this is yet another issue where GW have created ambiguous RaW that can be interpreted either way, sue to GW always failing to define exactly what "Arrive" means in each circumstance. You'd think by now these ENGLISH blokes who write the rules in ENGLISH and presumably have been fans for many many years and know how ENGLISH is a dirty evil language would try and clear some of this stuff up. But C'est la Vie (see what I did thar??)

Best way to solve this is to ask your opponent before the game, preferably by taking the least advantageous interpretation

I personally follow my original interpretation, because the wording in the codex differs significantly from the BRB

Okay.

While the terminoligy is just quite vague in the BGB with no real referance to the time-context of when models arrive..

The SM dex description of locator beacons specifically uses the phrase 'arrive on the battlefield' (or somsuch, its not a direct quote) which can easily be surmised to mean at the beginning of the game, as you arrive to the entire location (i.e the entire battlefield) and as the GoI doesnt require you to 'leave' the battlefield in any sense.. then you cant 'arrive back' after already being there. I know thats a handful but the logic is sound.

Although I understand what you're saying, Gwar, by GoI the units have clearly been removed from the tabletop, therefore they are gone, as if they had never been there, despite then being immediately placed again.

Since they have left the battlefield via being removed, they can then arrive again.

and as the GoI doesnt require you to 'leave' the battlefield in any sense

I couldn't disagree more. GoI says 'remove the models from the tabletop'. Once you've removed a model from the tabletop, they're gone.

Isn't selective quoting fun.

You forgot the "immediately placed back onto the table" bit. It's immediate, hence, there is no time when they are actually in reserves awaiting to Deep Strike

Reserves is irrelevant. There's nothing about 'arriving from reserves', only 'arriving...via deep strike'.

'Immediate' is also irrelevant. The models are removed, and therefore can only become present on the battlefield by 'arriving'.

Selective quoting isn't fun, and neither is making up restrictions.

Thanks for all the replies gus - I wish they standardised the wording on things to make it clear.

Can they ping into teleport homers as well?

I'm going to agree with Sourclams, since once a model is removed, it is no longer there and logically must arrive again.

Page57 wrote:The Librarian, and any unit he is with, are removed from the tabletop

WingWong wrote:Thanks for all the replies gus - I wish they standardised the wording on things to make it clear.

Can they ping into teleport homers as well?

It only works if "Terminators wish to teleport onto the battlefield via deep strike" I suppose you might have a case if the Librarian was with a unit of terminators and had terminator armour on himself, but even then you might get some disputes.

sourclams wrote:Reserves is irrelevant. There's nothing about 'arriving from reserves', only 'arriving...via deep strike'.

'Immediate' is also irrelevant. The models are removed, and therefore can only become present on the battlefield by 'arriving'.

Selective quoting isn't fun, and neither is making up restrictions.

Tabletop and battlefield are two different things. The entire contention over these rules is over the implication of the rules. The two different words imply two different things.

I think, with the wording used for the locator beacon, the SM-dex ruling is ment to imply that its done only once when a unit first wishes to enter a battlefield.

Also.. to be fair, I think the GoI is similiar to movement without as many restrictions. When you move troops.. you remove them from the table. You plonk them back down about 6" further ahead. They havent left the battlefield. Its silly-logic and pedantic semantics. (To suggest otherwise)

Edit mk.1

Drunkspleen wrote:

WingWong wrote:Thanks for all the replies gus - I wish they standardised the wording on things to make it clear.

Can they ping into teleport homers as well?

It only works if "Terminators wish to teleport onto the battlefield via deep strike" I suppose you might have a case if the Librarian was with a unit of terminators and had terminator armour on himself, but even then you might get some disputes.

Teleporting is the operative word here. A -anything- HQ with termie armor can teleport once onto the table (as per deep-strike rules). So a libarian with teleport armor could enter the game via teleport, once, with (or without, alone) a squad of terminators.

Gate of infinity is not teleporting, in the game sense, I believe.

Just like with Gwar, I understand what you're saying, but I can't get over the majority of your argument being wrapped with 'In My Opinion'. I find this argument to be much more akin to RAI/fluff than RAW; neither of which is a bad thing, but this situation is more clear-cut than other contentious issues. For example:

Razerous wrote:
Tabletop and battlefield are two different things. The entire contention over these rules is over the implication of the rules. The two different words imply two different things.

Prove it? Neither is a defined game term. You can't tell me that they don't mean the same thing because GW never tells you what either definition excludes.

I think, with the wording used for the locator beacon, the SM-dex ruling is ment to imply that its done only once when a unit first wishes to enter a battlefield.

A reasonable interpretation, but nothing in the rule is written in such an ironclad manner. I personally *don't* think the SM dex implies that. Can you show me anything within the rule that specifies 'from reserves' or 'one time only'?

Also.. to be fair, I think the GoI is similiar to movement without as many restrictions. When you move troops.. you remove them from the table. You plonk them back down about 6" further ahead. They havent left the battlefield. Its silly-logic and pedantic semantics.

Often times I simply shuffle my troops/vehicles forward while maintaining full contact with the tabletop. Especially Land Raider or Battlewagon models, and usually while saying 'VROOOOOOOOOOOM-bwah-ROOOOOOOOOOOOOM'. So again, while you provide good anecdotal evidence, it doesn't stand up to RAW argumentation.

Some really interesting replies here - thanks!

The main problem, IMO, is that GW has not produced a standardised set of definitions that they stick to across all codexes.

One last question - Can I gate out of combat?

sourclams wrote:
Often times I simply shuffle my troops/vehicles forward while maintaining full contact with the tabletop. Especially Land Raider or Battlewagon models, and usually while saying 'VROOOOOOOOOOOM-bwah-ROOOOOOOOOOOOOM'. So again, while you provide good anecdotal evidence, it doesn't stand up to RAW argumentation.

Lol. Fair point. As are all the others youve made

The problem is, the rules are provable by RAW, if you read the appropriate bits of text with a certain context. And it isnt far fetched. The problem is, that it can be argued the other way with equal ease.

Im making it messy. I shall be quiet.

@ Wingwong: Yes, as it stands, you can gate out of combat. There arent any stated restrictions to phases or specific restrictions to movement (although theres the running arguement in concerns to movement not being able to be done while in combat but thats moot if you follow the gate-instructions).

I think Sourclams is correct on this. Removing the unit from the table top and having them placed again via deepstrike is different from picking them up to move them. Mostly because you are using deep strike rules and not moving through intervening terrain.

Gate uses all the rules of deepstrike, including those tied to locator beacons.

It is worth noting that the mishaps from deepstrike also rely on the unit "arriving" on the tabletop.

Wehrkind wrote:I think Sourclams is correct on this. Removing the unit from the table top and having them placed again via deepstrike is different from picking them up to move them. Mostly because you are using deep strike rules and not moving through intervening terrain.

A model/s using the GoI rules doesnt deep strike.. it is simply placed on the board up to 24" away from its previous position. They do not deep-strike.

Wehrkind wrote:
It is worth noting that the mishaps from deepstrike also rely on the unit "arriving" on the tabletop.

What? The word 'arrive' is not used in any way when describing the rules/workings of the mishap table. Nor is the word inlcuded in the mishap table. Reguardless its the context of the word 'arrive' which is important. Thats talking about a battlefield which sounds like it intends it to be at the beginning of a game & only once.

Sorry, Just thought Id try and clear up some dogdey points to make way for the good ones.

Wait, what GoI rules are you using? The current codex makes no restriction on where you show up. You remove the models, then place them anywhere using the deep strike rules.

As to the diction for deepstrike, I am fairly certain they use the word "arrive" to describe the time when they deploy, but I will double check over lunch.

Wehrkind wrote:Wait, what GoI rules are you using? The current codex makes no restriction on where you show up. You remove the models, then place them anywhere using the deep strike rules

Perhaps you should Read the codex before spouting off crap like that. It's restricted to 24"

I think you can easily use locator beacons, the Libarian and co where removed from the table and are now arriving, again, by deep strike.

They're following the conditions required for the beacon to be useful.

The fact that its done immidiatly doesn't change that, if you leave a room and immidiatly come back in you've still left and come back again.

Locator Beacon: "If a unit wishes to arrive on the battlefield"
GoI: "The Librarian, and any unit he is with, are removed from the tabletop"

Tabletop and Battlefield are not the same thing.

Gwar! wrote:Tabletop and Battlefield are not the same thing.

Says who? Cause where I play, our Battlefield is on the top of a gaming table, so the Tabletop and the Battlefield are the same thing.

TehCheator wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Tabletop and Battlefield are not the same thing.

Says who? Cause where I play, our Battlefield is on the top of a gaming table, so the Tabletop and the Battlefield are the same thing.

Check the Dictionary

Okay, so then they are completely different things. In that case, when you Deep Strike, you don't arrive on the "Tabletop" and therefore you aren't allowed to fight, because everyone else is on the Tabletop and you are in some mystical place known only as the "Battlefield."

TehCheator wrote:Okay, so then they are completely different things. In that case, when you Deep Strike, you don't arrive on the "Tabletop" and therefore you aren't allowed to fight, because everyone else is on the Tabletop and you are in some mystical place known only as the "Battlefield."

Again wrong. GoI says they are "immediately placed back [on the tabletop] using the deep strike rules".

As codex > Rulebook, they get to be placed even if the Deep Strike rules do not mention the tabletop. And as I pointed out before, the word "arrive" in the Deep Strike rules is a different usage, but as GW never define what usage, it is up for debate (i.e. clear it up pre game until an errata comes out)

Gwar stop selectively quoting things it is misleading and generally annoying.

"The Librarian, and any unit he is with, are removed from the tabletop and immediately placed back together anywhere within 24" using the deep strike rules"

OK so they use the deep strike rules (p.95) let take a look:

Paragraph 2:

"First place one model from the unit any were on the table in the position you would like the unit to arrive,

Paragraph 4:

"Models arriving via deep strike a always treat difficult terrain as dangerous terrain."

Paragraph 5:

"In the movement phase when they Arrive , these units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a deep striking vehicle."

So if what your saying is true I can teleport a squad into difficult terrain without taking a test, then move them after a Deep Strike, provided I leave the librarian behind since he used his movement to teleport.


But wait there is more!

Check the Dictionary

perhaps you should before you start a pointless argument to inflate your E-peen.

"Arrive - 1 a: to reach a destination b: to make an appearance "

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/arrive

Seems like the librarian is arriving to me.....

Yes, did you read the bit where I said the meaning of the word Arrive is different for each case?

Did you read the part where I said that even if it is using the Deep Strike rules, it is not deep striking?

Did you read the bit where I said the Codex Trumps the rulebook, so they are "placed", they do not arrive at all?

Also, your Strawman attack regarding my "Check the Dictionary" comment is lulzy to the extreme. What you have done there is selectively quote my response without showing the Question. The Question was "Are Tabletop and Battlefied different things".
Next time before trying to attack my character, have a decent attack lined up please.

My response was intended to be a reductio ad absurdum. You claim that the Tabletop and the Battlefield aren't the same thing, and so Removing the Units from the Tabletop and re-placing them somewhere else isn't the same as removing the Units from the Battlefield and re-placing them.

If you are going to hold to that, you have to be consistent. This means you have to decide whether you are playing on the "Tabletop" or the "Battlefield" and then ignore anything that doesn't specifically mention that word, but uses the other instead. Obviously, in the context of a Tabletop War Game, the Tabletop and the Battlefield mean exactly the same thing. If they don't then I'd like to know what the difference is (not in terms of the English Language, but in the specific context of a game of Warhammer 40k).

TehCheator wrote:My response was intended to be a reductio ad absurdum. You claim that the Tabletop and the Battlefield aren't the same thing, and so Removing the Units from the Tabletop and re-placing them somewhere else isn't the same as removing the Units from the Battlefield and re-placing them.

If you are going to hold to that, you have to be consistent. This means you have to decide whether you are playing on the "Tabletop" or the "Battlefield" and then ignore anything that doesn't specifically mention that word, but uses the other instead. Obviously, in the context of a Tabletop War Game, the Tabletop and the Battlefield mean exactly the same thing. If they don't then I'd like to know what the difference is (not in terms of the English Language, but in the specific context of a game of Warhammer 40k).

The thing is, has it occurred to you that GW would have used the word Battlefield rather than Tabletop if they intended for them to use Locator Beacons?

But in any case, Locator beacons cannot be used because they only help "units arriving by Deep Strike" whereas GoI have the units "placed using the Deep Strike rules". It's a subtle difference, but a difference all the same.