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Sorry if this topic is already covered elsewhere, but I didn't see one.

Basically here is the gist of it:

I have the 4th ed codex of CSM, but none of the models save for a few converted SM. I have been hearing that the 5th edition has seen an extreme reduction of capability in the CSM codex. I have a lot of blood angels already, but not all the models for that I want. Should I focus on finishing my BA army, or try out the CSM in 5th ed?

Any help would be appreciated.

Take it from me, finish one arm at a time, do not try and make 2 or more armies at a time, finish one then do another.

No, take it from me: DO NOT play CSM in 5th. There's nothing fluffy or 'chaotic' about them. It's always the same boring army lists and the same boring tactics. If you really want to play a coo, renegade army, use the normal SM codex and glue spikes to your marines. You can actually get much better results out of it.

They are fine, and the only thing not 'fluffy' about them is the fact you can't make legion specific units other than troops. I found that to be disappointing myself.

But other than that, they are fine and fun to play.

There's nothing 'fun' about this codex: it's for people who don't know what 'fun' is.

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:Sorry if this topic is already covered elsewhere, but I didn't see one.

Basically here is the gist of it:

I have the 4th ed codex of CSM, but none of the models save for a few converted SM. I have been hearing that the 5th edition has seen an extreme reduction of capability in the CSM codex. I have a lot of blood angels already, but not all the models for that I want. Should I focus on finishing my BA army, or try out the CSM in 5th ed?

Any help would be appreciated.

The 5th edition codex is extremely capable, I'd rate it at #3 in terms of average power. You can do a lot with it.

That said, it lacks the soul, feel, and cool factor of the previous codex. The fluff is naff and incomplete, the army list is cookie cutter and there are very clear "takes" and "do not takes", it's basically Space Marines with spikes and an extra attack and Cult troops and that's about it, but make no mistake that CSM's are probably the best basic trooper in the game next to Ork boyz, and Oblits are amazing HS.

Absolutely.

I voted "yes for other reasons," my reasons being both fluff and competition.

With the twin lash list and one of the most versatile vehicles in the game (defiler) the list is fine, competitively. Granted, competitive armies tend to be generic and lack fluff, but that is always the case with competitive armies. If it is built specifically to win and nothing else, character becomes coincidental. This is true for any army.

And I think it's just fine in the fluff department as well. I always seem to hear chaos players whining that space marines get so many more cool, fluffy options than chaos, but this simply isn't true. While the 5th ed chaos book is a big downgrade in fluff from the 4th ed book, that really just speaks to the incredible diversity of the 4th book, not the lack of the 5th one. Anyway, anyone who thinks that chaos gets less options than regular marines is nuts. Regular marines have to take a special character that confers some generic USR to the rest of the army. But, at the end of the day, a tactical squad is still a tactical squad, even if the flamer is twin linked. Chaos has six different troops choices. Six! Want a Khorne army? Take Khorne berserkers and a lord/demon prince of Khorne. Want a Tzeench army? Just use Thousand Sons and have this spiffy, Tzeench sorcerer. Etc, etc, etc. And all of those armies are actually fairly solid, because their troops are solid. Maybe not as competitive as dual lash prince, but when you have a whole army of plague marines, you're not about to roll over to anyone. The only one that's under powered is Slaaneesh with the noise marines...I just don't see those working. But they are there if you want them.

And with Space Marines, you're locked into your HQ choice in terms of fluff. If you want Salamanders, you have to have Vulcan to get any special rules. Since it's a special character, you can't even change up the equipment. In my opinion, it's the space marine codex that lacks fluff.

This whole argument is of course assuming that the chaos player is comparing the chaos codex to the marine codex, which usually seems to be the case. If they are arguing that their book is less fluffy than the 4th ed chaos book, they're right. But it's still equally characterful to any other 5th ed. book, if not more so. And, in the end, the question was, "Is chaos worth playing in 5th?" This makes me assume that if not chaos, you will be choosing another army. Not, "Is it worth switching from 4th ed to 5th ed," which is an entirely different question.

I think it's a great list, for fluff and competativeness.

You can make both a fluffy army and/or a competative one. You also get the best selection of troops in the game, great army!

I have this suspicion that "fluffy" for some people is code for "Will it give me superpowers as a reward for this conversion, or ignoring that unit I didn't really want to use?" By that standard, the current codex isn't 'fluffy' because it returns to the 1999 style Chaos undivided army list, and doesn't give out superpowers.

I had an Chaos Undivided raiding army under the 2002 codex, so any complaints I might have involve the loss of blastmaster havoc squads and the overnerf of daemons. But overall I'm happy enough with the changes that I'm still using my raiding army under 5th.

I voted 'yes' for competitive reasons.

I'll be honest here though, I don't particularly care for the current Chaos Marine book. I've been playing Chaos Marines since 2nd edition and the current codex is really only better than the 1999 3rd ed. book in terms of 'fluffyness', options, diversity and feeling well ...chaotic. In particular, I mourn the loss of god specific demons. Even the 1999 book, bland as it was, had god specific demons. I'm also not sure why the Chaos codex didn't follow the trend of having characters that, when taken, change the army in a substantial way (ie: changing the force organization, changing what units can do etc.). But I suppose we all see how well that worked out for the Dark Angel book so at least we can be grateful that the Chaos book is better than that abomination.

Make no mistake though that while I do have my complaints about the army I can not say that it isn't competitive. It is very competitive. Some real standouts are:

1. Demon Princes, flying with lash of submission in particular. There are other decent builds but I doubt there is any other scarier single model than a demon prince with lash in the game currently.

2. Obliterators, essentially a squad of fearless, 2 wound terminators, with plasma cannons that can also use other useful guns such as melta guns in a pinch. What's not to like? The plasma cannons also just so happen to work really well with lash of submission.

3. Plauge Marines, T5, feel no pain, fearless troops with power armor. Since they're troops so they do a pretty good job of babysitting objectives. They're a bit more expensive than they were in the previous codex but I am pretty sure feel no pain is worth the extra 4 points.

4. Basic Chaos Marines, for some reason I never see anyone take these but honestly when you look at what you get for one point less than a loyalist space marine they are quite a bargain. You get marine stats, bolter, bolt pistol AND close combat weapon, grenades, flexible 5 to 20 squad size, the ability to take two special weapons at 10+ models, and base leadership 9 (easily upgraded to LD 10 with the purchace of a champion). Add into that the ability to augment the squad with chaos icons and the option to purchace 35 point Rhinoes and you can have quite the mechanized hoard.

5. Berzerkers, these guys aren't really my cup of tea but they can be quite the effective assault unit since they have WS 5, furious charge and 3 base attacks.

Keep in mind though that for every unit I have just listed there is another unit in the book that is pretty much junk but I am trying to be positive here so I won't get into them.

I would say overall CSM are tied for first overall in power with orks and demons.

I'd like to know who said "no-for competitive reasons" lol

I like CSM, but they aren't really "one point less" than loyalist marines. You have to compare them on a squad-by-squad basis for usefulness.

10 tactical marines with a vet sarge, flamer, and missile launcher are 170.

10 Chaos marines with champion flamer, and missile launcher are 180.

Loyalist marines have "combat tactics" and "And They Shall Know No Fear" probably the two best morale rules in the game.

Chaos marines are significantly better in close combat... but still lose pretty badly to specialist CC units, and once a Chaos unit breaks... it stays broken, or gets run down in CC.

Chaos marines are better for jumping out of rhinos, because you can take two special weapons.

Loyalists get cheap-ass drop pods and "drop pod assault."

If you want to even come close to how good loyalist morale rules are, you have to get an icon of chaos glory, which is vulnerable to casualty removal rules... and costs more points.

So... CSM end up being 20 points more than their loyalist counterparts (a significant amount) for.... well if anything I'd have to say they're not quite as good overall, but they can be situationally better.

^ I thought we were arguing codex to codex, not vanilla marine to Chaos marine.

Because if its the latter everyone knows chaos marines are pretty crap.

willydstyle wrote:

So... CSM end up being 20 points more than their loyalist counterparts (a significant amount) for.... well if anything I'd have to say they're not quite as good overall, but they can be situationally better.

Agreed, I was mainly getting at the point that I never see anyone use them which I think is a bit of a shame considering they are pretty solid troops (in the abstract). I think that their main problem is that they are generalists and in the Chaos list you can always just pay a few points more and get something that is going to do some specific job much better than a generic chaos marine. For example, if you want an objective taker you pay a few points more and get fearless unkillable plague marines and if you want an "assaulty" unit you pony up for berzerkers and they do much better in assault and also don't run away when you occasionally cock up your dice rolls.

It is a real testament to the short comings of the book that they managed to make the "mainstay" chaos marine unit redundant and mostly useless. I have had some luck running a list with a bunch of mechanized chaos marine squads in rhinoes with two special weapons each but, honestly, it is still not as good in the abstract as a standard lash list.

PanamaG wrote:^ I thought we were arguing codex to codex, not vanilla marine to Chaos marine.

Because if its the latter everyone knows chaos marines are pretty crap.

Yes that was my intention.

I have the 4th ed codex, so I know what they USED to be able to do. The point of this thread was if going into 5th Ed with them was worth it.

For the majority, you guys answered me pretty well. Then that leads me to another question: can you use the Codex: Chaos Demons in conjunction with the CSM? In the 4th Ed, they had them all together in the same codex, but from what I understand, they divided them up in 5th. (Kinda made sense, 4th ed CSM 'dex was quite a read.)

Chaos is fun, people just hate on them or spout what they read other people saying about them on the internet.

They lost a TON of the customization they had, but they are still a fun army...as long as you don;t take lash!

One of my regular opponants plays CHaos and we alwyas have great games. You still have lots of options to build an army, and it is a tough list, you can really win games with them, even without lash.

I think it is still a really fun list and there are a lot of builds that can come out of it.

But no, outside of APOC, you can not use the Daemon codex unless you house rule it with your local group.

Oh, and anyone who says normal Chaos Marines aren't good is loco.

You get a LD10 MEQ that is an assault marine and a tactical marine. They are great. Take 10, 2 special weapons, a fist, Icon and a rhino and you have a serious all purpose utility. They shoot well, assault well and very rarely run away. I don't see why anyone would not like that. Cult troops are great too, but Chaos warriors are not in any way, shape or form a bad choice at all.

@Wildstyle
You make a good analysis but miss some really key factors.
Chaos marines are more expensive, but they will equal or outshoot a marine unit (more special weapons to fire on the move) are less likely to run away (rerollable Ld10 > ATSKNF) and will kick the crap out of loyalist marines in HtH. They are worth more points because they are better. Yes they could be run down in HtH (although only the toughest assault units will do that, in which case they will be gutted in the assault anyway), but against a tatcical squad, they will win every time.

So in what situation are they NOT better? Combat tactics is all I can see.

Starting a CSM army with the current codex is still worth it IMO.
True,the current codex is bland and has sucked alot of the "chaos" out of chaos,however it's still possiable to build a fun/fluffy army using the current codex,it just takes a bit of thought.
The model conversion opps are still great,and hell,it's Chaos,so of course it's still cool.
Of course if it's just a competitive army you want,you can always go with the template "Lash/PM/Oblit" army that's become so popular(bleh).

A CSM list in 5th edition really shines when you have a force comprising of all the Gods cult marines. Themed lists are harder to make but more fluffy (unless you're playing a huge game). The newest edition of the CSM codex itself isn't as fluffy as say the 2nd edition (though really, which codex is?), but it's still pretty solid.

On a sadder note, Daemons are generic and I think that's what makes me most sad.

Do you like the models in the CSM range?

Do you want to have an army of guys in power armour that arent goody goody marines?

Do you want to play an army with a wealth of modelling opportunities?

You should play an army because you think its cool, not because of its power rating.

If you can answer yes to the above, then consider it.

CSM in 5th is easier for new players to come in to, with no restrictions on the units you can use. By imposign restrictions on the units you purchase, you can make a fluffy army.

I agree with you Xenith, you make good points,

but,

Marines are goody goodies? haha, Fanatical killing machines aren;t exactly what I call good goodies! There really are no goody goodies in 40K, not even Tau.

But I know what you meant, just playing Devil's Advocate here.

These are all great answers to my OP, but I have yet to see an answer to my 2nd question stated in my 2nd post in this thread:

Can chaos demons be used in CSM lists (Ie. Bloodletters in a Khorne CSM army list)? Similar in the method used to insert forces of the Inquisition into vanilla SM forces?

No. CSM only get to use generic daemons. But Chaos still has a great book with lots of options. Lash is not necessary and you can do a lot of things. They have the best Troops currently in the game and they have variety. The only thing is that they work best in rhinos.

Finish your Blood Angels first, doing multiple projects at the same time just delays both.

Starting is a good idea but wait till after you finish your current project. Chaos Space Marines is top tier up there with Orks and Daemons so is good to play competitively however the latest Chaos Space Marines codex lost much of the fluff from the previous edition but gained some power.

The chaos book can be very competitive, but all the fluffyness and variant lists from the 4th edition list are gone. I would not recommend the chaos codex to anyone.

Yes, make the Chaos army *and* finish your Blood Angels. As you don't really have much existing investment in a broken army that deserved nerfing, you should feel free to move forward with a new Chaos army.

Yes, the CSM army changed from before:
- CSM clearly better than Summoned Daemons
- stupid Extra Heavy / all-Infiltrating builds removed
Because Chaos is much less broken, the players who depended on unbalanced armies are complaining that GW took away their crutches.

However, the current Chaos is a strong Codex, and you can do a lot with it. You don't have to build dual-Lash / triple Oblit / min PM troops - most of the other stuff is also good enough to win.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Because Chaos is much less broken, the players who depended on unbalanced armies are complaining that GW took away their crutches.

Really? Lash based Chaos is arguably "the" best army at the moment.

Do you seriously think that the new book is weaker than the old one?

Specific tournament builds (e.g. IW, AL, etc.) got weaker. The book is still strong, but far less abusive.

Aside from Lash, which is arguably not being played as intended (based on how many people appear to stretch the rules to ignore restrictions that should be in force), CSM seems to be pretty well-balanced, but "best" is hard to say.

Since when did anyone play alpha legion? IW and daemonbomb were strong. Now lash and chaos daemons are strong, and I'd say much stronger than the 3.5e codex. So overall, the new codex sacrificed the flexibility of 8 army lists, and gained new stupid bland power lists. You are just wrong about GW taking away people's "crutches", they gave CSM players newer, better "crutches". There is no justification for removing death guard, thousand sons, world eaters, emperor's children, iron warriors, word bearers, night lords, and alpha legion.
So, you are wrong about the old codex being nerfed, it just got de-flavored. The old codex was flexible and flavorful and could make a powerful (but fluffy) list. The new codex is a steaming pile of bland crap that can make a powerful (and completely un-fluffy) list.