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The rules say:

IG codex page 44 wrote:Hunting Lance: Rough Riders are armed with a long hunting lance tipped with a shaped explosive charge that can tear through even the toughest armour.
Rough Riders use their hunting lances the first time they charge into close combat, after which they cannot be used again. When they charge into close combat, a unit armed with hunting lances counts as being armed with power weapons that strike at Strength and Initiative 5. Models using a hunting lance cannot gain an extra attack from having an additional close combat weapon.

RB page 75 wrote:FURIOUS CHARGE
Models with this skill are known for the wild ferocity of their assaults. In a turn in which they assaulted into combat they add +1 to both their Initiative and Strength characteristics when attacking in close combat (note that this has no effect on the Initiative tests for sweeping advances).

So can the bonuses from Furious Charge (from Mogul Kamir or Creed for example) be used with the Hunting Lance?
I'm leaning towards no but I'd like to hear your thoughts.

I don't see why not. Mogul Kamir does turn up with a lance and furious charge after all...

So why couldn't they be used together? What do you have to support your position?

The combo, RAW, gives you at least two S6 I6 power weapon attacks on the charge....



*scratches head* hmm... wow... that's actually not too shabby on the charge... MEQ/termie killing goodness for the rough riders... even bad for the Noise Marines.


Edit: Misread

Ghaz wrote:So why couldn't they be used together? What do you have to support your position?

My line of thoughts basically went like this:

Furious Charge add to the Strength and Initiative characteristics of the models.
The Hunting Lance doesn't modify the characteristics of the model but instead is a weapon with it's own Strength and Initiative.

Furious Charge would basically make the model S4 and I4 on the charge but the lance would make them S5 I5 instead.

Webbe wrote:

Ghaz wrote:So why couldn't they be used together? What do you have to support your position?

My line of thoughts basically went like this:

Furious Charge add to the Strength and Initiative characteristics of the models.
The Hunting Lance doesn't modify the characteristics of the model but instead is a weapon with it's own Strength and Initiative.

Furious Charge would basically make the model S4 and I4 on the charge but the lance would make them S5 I5 instead.

So, what you're saying is that Hunting Lances have some sort of pacifying effect on Rough Riders?


It seems to me that a unit with furious charge would be that much more violent and killy with their big pointy sticks of death, as opposed to not having any difference whatsoever, but I could be wrong.

And the last time I checked, wargear was part of the model.

The thing is, the Lance has a Fixed Strength and Initiative, same way as a relic blade is Strength 6, even if the model somehow became stronger (and in which case you'd hope for a second Special weapon so you could use your extra Strength, but that's another Can o' Worms™).

Furious charge is all well and good, but they only add to the initiative and strength of the model. The Wargear has a Specific rule stating "It hits at THIS strength and THIS initiative" not "This model now has +2 S and +2 I".

That's why Nobz get the bonus, because their weapons modify their own Strength (x2 or +2) while the lances are a fixed S and I.

So no, furious charge doesn't do anything for that first charge in. Subsequent charges they would be S4 I4 but for the first charge they are at a Fixed S5 I5.

To me it is similar to a powerfist and furious charge.

Furious charge adds +1, but it still hits at I1

I agree with Gwar! If the Lance gave a Strength and Initative bonus, it'd stack. Otherwise, the Lance is a fixed strength and initative. I'm not sure if that is RAI or not, maybe they're meant to stack. This is a huge departure for GW since they generally write such tight rule sets.......

Gwar! wrote:The thing is, the Lance has a Fixed Strength and Initiative, same way as a relic blade is Strength 6, even if the model somehow became stronger (and in which case you'd hope for a second Special weapon so you could use your extra Strength, but that's another Can o' Worms™).

Furious charge is all well and good, but they only add to the initiative and strength of the model. The Wargear has a Specific rule stating "It hits at THIS strength and THIS initiative" not "This model now has +2 S and +2 I".

That's why Nobz get the bonus, because their weapons modify their own Strength (x2 or +2) while the lances are a fixed S and I.

So no, furious charge doesn't do anything for that first charge in. Subsequent charges they would be S4 I4 but for the first charge they are at a Fixed S5 I5.

I'm going to have to agree with you on this one, too.

gwar is right...

Unless someone can point to a rule or analogous situation that specifically deals with this sort of thing, this strikes me as an ambiguous situation.

In ambiguous situations, rules should be interpreted to avoid absurdities, not to create absurdities.

The notion that the Rough Rider's special character confers a special ability that has virtually no effect on himself or the Rough Riders he commands is somewhat absurd.

Additionally, if you look at the "Assault" rules. While the "Rolling to Wound" rules on page 38 specifically mention that some weapons modify the attackers strength, there is no mention of ever attacking with a weapon's strength, only with the strength of the attacker. Thus, if we keep going down this path we may be faced with a situation where you have a strength 5 power weapon, but under the RAW, you do not actually get to use the strength 5 in close combat. This is doubtlessly an absurdity.

Thus Rough Riders should benefit from Furious Charge.

Rough riders do benefit, so long as it is not the first charge.

After the first charge they benefit from Furious Charge just fine and dandy as I pointed out previously.

And RaW, if a Weapon is stated to strike at a specific strength that is not based off the users strength (as I mentioned with someone becoming S10 but having a relic blade) then it strikes at the weapons strength, not the wielders.

Gwar's summation is correct. A similar would be eldar Silver Spears, whose lances count as S6 power weapons in assault, even though the eldar that carry them are S3...

If Spears had Furious Charge, they'd assault at S6 and I7.

Dave47 wrote:Thus Rough Riders should benefit from Furious Charge.

they should but they dont.
the rules for the hunting lance say that it is a str 5 init 5 attack period.
as gwar said the rule does not say +2 str +2 init. if it did then furious charge would apply.

Rofl Initiative 6 on humies riding horsies. You Guard guys are funny.

... the rule does not say +2 str +2 init.

However the previous codex did say exactly that, hence the confusion. The RAW has already been clearly spelt out, but this is one instance that the RAW is not exactly what they intended.

Make that "... the RAW may not be exactly what they intended."

Wow.

Sheesh Ghaz, we get the point!

Someone must have had internet problems.

I dont have my Codex on me, but do Grey Knight Weapons make them Str 6, or does it say add +2?

I only ask cause now with Straken, all friendly units in 12" get Furious Charge and Counter Attack. If they are a flat Str 6 then its the same situation with the Hunting Lances. If its only +2 though, now you can get a GK Grandmaster/Justicar/Terminators with a Str 7 Power Weapon on the Charge.

Or a Sister with a Blessed Weapon going at Str 6 and Int 6 with one of those Faith Acts, corect?

Deleted five instances of duplicated posts. I think that is a sextuplicated post.

Ghaz wrote:

... the rule does not say +2 str +2 init.

However the previous codex did say exactly that, hence the confusion. The RAW has already been clearly spelt out, but this is one instance that the RAW is not exactly what they intended.

agreed. i dont think this was RAI.

I think it's telling that none of you have been able to cite to a rule telling us to play this way. I'm open to being convinced otherwise, but until I see some proof, I think the RAW support the Lance attacks benefiting from Furious Charge.

Here's why:

"When they charge into close combat, a unit armed with hunting lances counts as being armed with power weapons that strike at Strength and Initiative 5. Models using a hunting lance cannot gain an extra attack from having an additional close combat weapon." (IG Codex, p 44, as quoted in OP.)

Nowhere does this passage state whether or not the lance modifies the "characteristics." I readily concede that this is somewhat ambiguous writing, but I don't think it's actually that unclear. As I have previously stated, the Close Combat rules clearly state that you attack by "cross-referencing the attacker's Strength characteristic (S) with the defender's Toughness (T)." The rules contain an exception for weapons that "give the attacker a Strength bonus" but there is no rule for weapons that have an arbitrary strength assignment.

It's also worth noting that Hunting Lances are not explicitly referred to as a "Special Close Combat Attack."

Also, check out this rule: "Certain pieces of wargear or special rules may modify a model's characteristics positively or negatively by adding to it... or even multiplying it." (Rulebook, page 6.) No mention is made of pieces of Wargear assigning an arbitrary value to a statistic. Additionally, the rules for "Characteristic Tests" on page 8 tell you to "score equal or lower than the value of the characteristic involved."

Thus, we're faced with two choices for a somewhat ambiguous rule:

1) Lances benefit from Furious Charge.

2) Lances do not benefit from Furious Charge, and additionally cannot use their Strength 5 to take Characteristic Tests or to fight in Close Combat, since the rules do not support that. In fact, at a fundamental level, the rules do not support wargear assigning arbitrary statistics to a model. So you have a Strength 5 lance, but there's no recognized game interaction you can perform with it.

Now tell me: Which of these makes the most sense?

What makes sense has no play here.

When trying to figure out a rule, you work with what you have. To argue RaI is beyond ridiculous, because you did not write the codex. Perhaps the intent WAS to make the 1st charge S5 I5 and all subsequent Charges S4 I4, we don't know.

What we do know is that the rules work in the way I have explained there. Is it RaI? Who knows (other than the guy who wrote the codex) but Raw the 1 tine lance attack does not benefit from FC.

I also like the unsutle bias in your closing statement. Allow me to rephase it so it suits my needs:

Thus, we're faced with two choices for a somewhat ambiguous rule:

1) Lances are always S5 I5 on the first charge.

2) Lances benefit from Furious Charge despite being set at a fixed strength and initiative rather than modifying a users strength and initiative and depite the rules saying otherwise. After all, it's clearly intend to benefit.

Now tell me: Which of these makes the most sense?

Just to get off topic, can anyone identify that codex/army book? I can't ;(

It's from a White Dwarf, I think.

Gwar! wrote:What makes sense has no play here.

See, this is only true if the rule is clear but "makes no sense." When faced with an unclear rule, you should always try to give it the interpretation that doesn't break the game.

Would you ever try to make your argument during an actual game of 40k? If your answer is "no," then you are effectively trolling, since you're taking a position not because it's how you think the rules should be played, but because you like being contrary.

Gwar! wrote:When trying to figure out a rule, you work with what you have. To argue RaI is beyond ridiculous, because you did not write the codex. Perhaps the intent WAS to make the 1st charge S5 I5 and all subsequent Charges S4 I4, we don't know.

Once again, this isn't RAW vs. RAI. The RAW is not clear, so there's not RAW answer to be had. This is your RAI vs. my RAI.

Gwar! wrote:What we do know is that the rules work in the way I have explained there.

You keep saying this. Can you point me to a GW ruling on this issue? If so, I will gladly back down.

Gwar! wrote: Is it RaI? Who knows (other than the guy who wrote the codex) but Raw the 1 tine lance attack does not benefit from FC.

I also like the unsutle bias in your closing statement. Allow me to rephase it so it suits my needs:

Thus, we're faced with two choices for a somewhat ambiguous rule:

1) Lances are always S5 I5 on the first charge.

2) Lances benefit from Furious Charge despite being set at a fixed strength and initiative rather than modifying a users strength and initiative and depite the rules saying otherwise. After all, it's clearly intend to benefit.

Now tell me: Which of these makes the most sense?

The rules don't "say otherwise." If you claim they do, then you must make assumptions that prevent the Lance from ever attacking at Strength 5 in close combat, since the rule's don't specifically enable that interaction. And when you're being that technical, you might as well stop playing the game, because if you're unwilling to apply even the smallest modicum of common sense, then why bother?

I'm willing to concede that my interpretation of this rule may be wrong. But this is not a RAW v. RAI thing.

Because Common Sense and GW DO NOT MIX IN ANY FORM!

The rules say (paraphrased) "the Hunting Lance Strikes at S5 and I5 the first time they charge into combat."

The models Profile is S3 I3.

Furious Charge states "In a turn in which they assaulted into combat they add +1 to both their Initiative and Strength characteristics when attacking in close combat"

So when a Rough Rider with Furious Charge Charges, they are in actuality S4 T4. However, for the first charge, the Lances special rules kick in, being as they are specifically worded to kick in "the first time they charge into close combat" which allows them to strike at S5 and I5.

I am not getting why people are stating "Oh but that makes the Rough Rider Special Character useless because it doesn't benefit them" when it does, after the first charge. After the First charge they will be S4 and I4 on the charge, which is a damn sight better than S3 and I3.