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Hydra Flak Tank with hull-mounted Heavy Flamer: 75 pts
Heavy Weapons Squad with 3x Autocannon: 75 pts

Which is better?

Scoring:
Hydra - no
HWS - yes

Survivability:
Hydra - AV12 tank
HWS - 3xT3 W2 infantry

Now let's look at this comparison. The HWS can be put into cover, effectively making it 6W with a 4++. The Hydra will sit there at AV12. It's pretty hard to flank a vehicle until turn 3-4 (except for fast skimmers), so we'll discount side shots for now.

What happens when they get shot by a BS4 Heavy Bolter?
HWS: .83 wounds
Hydra: nothing
BS3 Multilaser?
HWS: 1.25 wounds, because the 50% of the time you fail your save you lose 2 wounds.
Hydra: .25 glances
BS4 Missile Launcher?
HWS: .55 wounds after instant death
Hydra: .333 glances
Fortuned BS3 Scatterlaser?
HWS: 2.5 wounds after instant death
Hydra: .5 glances
BS4 lascannon?
HWS: .55 wounds after instant death
Hydra: .11 glances and .333 pens
BS5 Rail Gun?
HWS: .69 wounds after instant death
Hydra: .11 glances with +16.6% chance to immo/WDstr/destroy and .55 pens with +16.6% chance to blahblahblah

Obviously the Hydra does far better against multishot weapons and lower strength weapons. The HWS only pulls even/ahead when the Str of the weapon is very, very high and there are a small number of shots.

We all knew this. So let's tweak it.

Add a chimera to the equation. At 55 points, and considering the range of units capable of taking one and its overall usefulness, it's pretty easy to have an extra chimera. We can put the HWS inside of it and claim the benefits of an AV12 shell, and we can stack the Hydra behind it in the dreaded 'choo-choo' formation; because the gun on a Hydra is a rear mounted emplacement, another chimera in front of a chimera obscures 100% of its front armor facing. That's right, 3+ cover.

You know those results that the Hydra suffered in the previous comparison? Divide them by 3. What happens when a HWS gets shot at by any of the above anti tank weapons? There's about a 25% chance that it loses a model and runs off the table. Every time. What happens to the Hydra? It smiles and keeps going. Even a BS5 rail gun only rolls on the glance/pen table 23% of the time. So now you've got a vehicle with the survivability of an infantry squad against AT weaponry and the survivability of a vehicle against small arms. Best of both worlds. And because of vehicle squadron rules, you can claim this save against any single shot. How many units can put out multiple glance/pen results? Current metagame: one, 3x Oblits. That's it.

Offensive Output:

Hydra: 3 hits
HWS: 3 hits
HWS under orders against a vehicle/MC: 1/36*0 + 20/36*4.5 + 15/36*3 = 3.75

HWS under orders is just plain better.

vs. SMF
Hydra: 3 hits
HWS: 1.5 hits
HWS under orders: 1.875

So even under orders, a single Hydra is still almost 2x as good against a fast skimmer.

Move-and-shoot?

HWS: 0 hits

Hydra: 1.5 hits

Range

Autocannon: 48"

Hydra Autocannon: 72"

Anti-Assault:

vs. 30 Orks

HWS: shoots 6x, hits 3, kills 2.5 Orks. In close combat hit 1, wound 1/3, kill .277
Hydra: Tank shocks Orks, hits between 7-10 with Heavy Flamer, kills 4.7-6.7

Slots:

HWS - practically free depending on army composition
Hydra - 1

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

To me, a skilled player can find far more roles and pull off far more "dirty tricks" with the Hydra than with the AC HWS. I also find Orders to be a very mediocre ability power-wise. Very cool, but not even close to crazily overpowered. The only real reason to take a HWS is because it's scoring, or because you absolutely filled your HS slots. Any other category, and I find the Hydra to be better, if not WAAAY better.

Another downside for the HWS ac squad is you lose a turn putting them in the chimera (since they can't start in it and they can't get their own).

There are a couple more things that get multiple glances besides olbiterators, broadsides and cris suits, fire dragons, sternguard, infiltrating chosen, dropping terminators, exorcists, to name a few.

Not saying I disagree, but then again I can't really see buying HWS squads in the first place.

Well the results are clear to me, but I guess there's only a very few situations (some of which you've already articulated), where the squad might do better. Setting a weapon squad on an objective is great, as you've said.

The hydra is 1 KP, and so is the squad, but it seems much better for survivability as it'll take 3 high strength hits to ID them, whereas 1 high strength shot could demolish the hydra, as you've also said. Those are the only ones I could even think of. So, not much of a contest... Hydra all the way.

If we are talking about value for points, then even including scoring... I'd say the hydra is far better. In a laboratory environment, sure, they have longer range, heavy flamers, ignore SMF, kill scout bikers really well, can move and fire to lesser effect.

In the context of a game though, say you are facing an army that does not want you to shoot your hydras (because they are very vulnerable to them) then they are easier to lock up than HWS.

I couldn't imagine you would burn more than 1 heavy slot on hydras, so lets assume that you have one or more hydras in a squadron. If this is wrong and you are planning to have 3x1 hydras, then I've got a whole new problem with this comparison.

your enemy goes first, and spreads two or three glancing hits onto your squadron, and you are shut down. A loota unit into a squadron of hydras can keep it virtually shut down all game.

3x HWS next to a CCS with regimental banner are not likely to get completely silenced if they are all in cover. It's possible that they could, but would require a lot more firepower. You have two chances to BiD them, and they only have about a 20% chance to fail morale after the re-roll.

This, their scoring status, and the free heavy slot I get, keep HWS as a 'possibility'

not better, not MUCH worse, just an acceptable option.

I agree with being able to keep them pinned all game. As a bug player I have plenty of venom cannons and stranglers to keep them pinned, immobile, or unable to fire. And if there are 3 I won't have other tanks to worry about so I guess I'd be doing pretty well then. Very good point with taking up all the heavy slots and limiting yourself.

However, I am wary of advocating any sort of 'firebase' guard army right now. Its working for me at the moment, having a partial firebase... but I haven't played bikers and I haven't played demons, those armies LOVE firebases.

I think a safer place for everyone to start would be to fully mechanized, if you are looking to pick up some wins. And in that case, the hydra stands alone.

Hydras can get camo netting which is pretty awesome.

I like the Hydra a lot better. It is the best IG tank for the points unless you start going nuts with the upgrades. The autocannon is very underrated and a plethora of them would give mech IG an edge versus other mech lists.

G

Shep wrote:However, I am wary of advocating any sort of 'firebase' guard army right now. Its working for me at the moment, having a partial firebase... but I haven't played bikers and I haven't played demons, those armies LOVE firebases.

I think a safer place for everyone to start would be to fully mechanized, if you are looking to pick up some wins. And in that case, the hydra stands alone.

Mech really does seem to be the place where everyone is making it... Hence all the melta spam we're seeing around these days. I think with all the drop pods/deep strikers/outflankers mech really is safe, especially for tasty guardsmen.

I'd kick it up even another notch...and take a Leman Russ Exterminator with 3 HB's.

But to compare you would have to go with 2 Hydras or 6 HW teams.

The Hyrda is good, no doubt.

But imo, it's not good enough to warrant the Heavy slot. I can get comparable utility from AC HWS, and they're scoring and do not take up a heavy slot.

Played a test game against new Guard. Maugan Ra loved heavy weapon teams, as he could reliably wipe them out with one turn of shooting, and he doesn't give a crap about cover saves.

this arguement breaks down to one simple fact for me. i can't afford to buy any Hydras at the moment. but on the other hand, i have a boat load of Autocannon teams.

alarmingrick wrote:this arguement breaks down to one simple fact for me. i can't afford to buy any Hydras at the moment. but on the other hand, i have a boat load of Autocannon teams.

This is actually an excellent point. Compared to things like Leman Russ variant turrets, Hydras and Hydra conversion kits are expensive. And from a stand-up conversion standpoint, a Hydra is not an insignificant thing to have to convert. I've only seen a couple examples online and the ones that look really good require quite a bit of plasticard savvy. I'll be interested to see what folks come up with - much as folks came up with some standard Drop Pods (thinking of the PVC pipe ones in particular), I hope to see what folks develop for Hydras.

willydstyle wrote:Played a test game against new Guard. Maugan Ra loved heavy weapon teams, as he could reliably wipe them out with one turn of shooting, and he doesn't give a crap about cover saves.

And as a bug player, my barbed stranglers love them just as much for the pinning aspect--Even more than hitting an AV12 tank .

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:

Mech really does seem to be the place where everyone is making it... Hence all the melta spam we're seeing around these days. I think with all the drop pods/deep strikers/outflankers mech really is safe, especially for tasty guardsmen.

Of course mechanised armies are effective. Just look at what a transport vehicle costs in terms of £/$/€ per point you get. Compare that to what your infantry cost in money per point you get. Given that GW is a company that makes rules to sell miniatures it is quite obvious that transport vehicles will be powerful.

Example:
Space marine tactical squad: 200 points, for £17.60. That is 11.4 points per pound.
Space marine rhino: 35 points, for £17.60. That is ~2 points per pound.

The more recent a codex is, the cheaper the transport options will be (in points), the more money you will have to pay to get a competitive army.

A beautiful business model...

Meh, I'll already be loaded with autocannons in my line squads, so who needs Hydras?

Now the griffon, that's one badass tank (or artillery piece...)!

Three 12/10/10 vehicles in a squad are prone to problems related to vehicle squadrens.

But with three 12/10/10 vehicles you can basically get 12/12/10 vs most shooting. & as the hydra has two tl-hydra autocannons it wont be able to move to fire at full effectiveness. But then ofcourse you get to use the shorter ranged heavy bolter with synergistic weapon-stats.

......Im sure its been said, autocannon heavy weapon squads can be given 'orders'. They also will die faaarrr too easily for my liking.

4 autocannons contained within a single group of 40 guardsmen feels much more user-friendly.

Just my 2.5cents.

4 autocannons contained within a single group of 40 guardsmen feels much more user-friendly.

Just my 2.5cents.

augfubuoy wrote:Meh, I'll already be loaded with autocannons in my line squads, so who needs Hydras?

I think this works for me too. Why take either? With BS lascannons sucking, plasma going up, and a lack of really good other options, there is really only one excellent choice for a heavy weapon in basic squads: the autocannon. 65pt AC/GL squads are the future, IMO, and while far less flashy than the Hydra and not as punchy as the HWS, digging 10 guys out of cover is very difficult.

There are too many things that basic infantry cannot do to spend points and a heavy weapon slot on something that replicates, albeit in a superior fashion, your gunline firepower.

In a list built around mechanized vets, however, you may need the punch.

Heavy weapon squads, while cheap and potent, are simply far too fragile now to be backbone unit. Vulnerability to instant death, losing a heavy every 2 wounds instead of after three, and the inability to really take full advantage of orders due to lower LD makes them have a high damage potential but too low a survivability, IMO.

Not sure why people are worried about armor value of Hydra,
their weapons are 72 inches. Just stay back and pew pew?

LunaHound wrote:Not sure why people are worried about armor value of Hydra,
their weapons are 72 inches. Just stay back and pew pew?

That almost never works. Deployments are generally closer, and on a standard 6x4 table it's pretty easy to reach out and touch somebody. Add unto that the sheer number of fast vehicles with decent weapons, and that the AV12 becomes a bit of a liability.

And remember that lots of armies like mine are outflanking on turn two or three so you're never truly safe anymore. That and all the deep striking.

Yes but most of the IG back armor is low anyways for outflank.

I do see Polonius's point though.

You can convert a chimera into a Hydra with a ~15 WWII Hydra Flak kit scaled to 1/35 pretty easily. I've got a lot of Chimera chassis with the back plate left off that I'm swapping various artillery turrets/mounts onto as I tailor my game.

It's not free, but you can get 3 kits reasonably.

Any way you can link to the kits you're using, sourclams?

The conventional wisdom on autocannons is wrong, as most conventional wisdoms are. They're convenient but here at dakka dakka we're all smart so hopefully you can understand this.

Autocannons are one of the most narrowest weapons. They have a reputation of being the most versatile but they are the least versatile.

They have a reputation of being good because they are, they tend to kill things that really trouble the imperial guard, which is what you want. Transports ruin your day and autocannons are designed to deal with them because they're cheap and you can fit more of them on the board. If you can take as many lascannons you are almost always better to spend the points and do it.

In the case of the heavy weapons team, they can take three of either, so you're much better off going with lascannons, because they're much more reliable taking down transports.

But with the introduction of the hydra you can now put far more autocannons down than lascannons and thus is why the hydra is better than the autocannon heavy weapons squad.

WAIT a sec HWS are going to be troops..........

(Happy dance)

Sternguard_rock wrote:WAIT a sec HWS are going to be troops..........

(Happy dance)

Yes, one troop choice is the infantry platoon, and that comes with 1 platoon command, 2-5 regular infantry squads, 0-5 HWS, 0-2 SWS and 0-1 conscript squad (of 20-50 people). So quite a lot of bodies to keep on objectives etc.