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Ok, so this is something I have been seeing recently upon other forums, so I thought I would bring it here.

Basically, the argument is that if you have an Assault Terminator Squad where everyone has the same equipment, the sergeant doesn't count as a separate group of models for wound allocation
because he is identical to the others.

I just wanna make sure I'm not going mad because I know this is totally wrong. The Terminator Sergeant has a separate statline to the rest of the squad. Granted the only difference is the name, but that still makes him a different model does it not? Which means he counts as a separate group for wound allocation?

Thought for the Day: BLUE IS A COLOUR!

EDIT: Clarified WTF I was on about.

That's a really, really fine line. Personally, I couldn't call the sergeant a separate group because he is, in fact, identical to the other models in every way but moniker.

In the spirit of rules quoting, read the first paragraph on page 25 of the BGB.

As far as I'm aware, the sergeant is the squad leader and therefore part of that squad.
Not a separate entity.

But the Sergeant has a separate Stat line altogether. It's not a matter of "This Terminator is armed differently to that one" but its a case of "That is a Terminator Sergeant, and that is a Terminator".

To me that constitutes a different profile.

Its the same for Sternguard and Vanguard Squads. The sergeant has the same Characteristics, but is clearly a different model.

For one, they have a separate statline, and secondly the Unit composition is described as 1 Sergeant Plus 4 Space marines, which is another poke in the direction that they are separate.

AdrianG wrote:As far as I'm aware, the sergeant is the squad leader and therefore part of that squad.
Not a separate entity.

Normally, a sergeant has a different stat line or special wargear, thus making him a separate "group" of models for the purpose of wound alocation. In the case of a squad full of SS/TH termies, though, there is absolutely nothing - in terms of game play, wargear, and special rules - to distinguish the sarge from the others.

KaloranSLC wrote:

AdrianG wrote:As far as I'm aware, the sergeant is the squad leader and therefore part of that squad.
Not a separate entity.

Normally, a sergeant has a different stat line or special wargear, thus making him a separate "group" of models for the purpose of wound alocation. In the case of a squad full of SS/TH termies, though, there is absolutely nothing - in terms of game play, wargear, and special rules - to distinguish the sarge from the others.

Actually there is, the fact that he is the Sergeant. He is Not a terminator, he is a terminator Sergeant, which has a separate statline altogether. While it might not seem to affect anything, it still is a difference.

Now I just wanna add that this situation is rarely ever gonna come up, and it's mostly for the sake of the debate.

Gwar! wrote:Ok, so this is something I have been seeing recently upon other forums, so I thought I would bring it here.

Basically, the argument is that if you have an Assault Terminator Squad where everyone has the same equipment, the sergeant doesn't count as a separate group of models because he is identical to the others.

I just wanna make sure I'm not going mad because I know this is totally wrong. The Terminator Sergeant has a separate statline to the rest of the squad. Granted the only difference is the name, but that still makes him a different model does it not?

*snip*

For a minute, I was very, very confused by your argument, but I think I get it now.

You mean that he counts as a different model FOR THE PURPOSES of WOUND ALLOCATION. As in, "I assign 10 wound to the Terminators, and one to the Sergeant", with the argument you've heard being, "he's got the same gear, and the same stats, you roll them together."

In that case, I would definitely agree with you. Otherwise, I'm pretty sure I disagree.

Comes of playing Space Wolves... we don't generally have these problems

Yes, Sorry I'll make it more clear in the OP.

I am referring to it being a different model for wound allocation.

AdrianG wrote:Comes of playing Space Wolves... we don't generally have these problems

Remember the old Mixed armour Rules? Boy were those fun, espeicaly when you had a Unit of Wolf Guard, Some with 3+ Saves, others with 2+/5++ Saves, a Character with 2+/4++ Save and two wolves with 5+.

BGB wrote:The rules for taking saving throws and removing casualties... assume that all the models in the target unit are identical in gaming terms. By this we mean they have the same profile of characteristics, the same special rules and the same wargear.

Let's break it down:
1. Profile - they quite literally have the same profile of characteristics, even though it is listed separately.
2. Special Rules - there are no special rules to separate the sarge from the others; he operates in the exact same way as his brother terminators.
3. Wargear - this is the only item that is mutable within the squad, and depends on how you've upgraded your marines.

I see the argument, and I think I understand why you're making it (as in, what purpose it would serve). However, I think by specifically stating the "same profile of characteristics" in combination with "identical in gaming terms", they solidify that this is a case when the sergeant is no longer differentiated from his squad.

But he is. The name of the profile still must be taken into consideration, otherwise they would not bother to give him a Separate Statline, especially in the case of Assault terminators where they have a grand total of 2 options to pick from.

If it was intended for him to be counted as the same, why not just make it "5 Assault terminators" rather than 1 Terminator Sergeant and 4 Assault Terminators? I mean the sergeant has the exact same weapon options and other stats as his squad, so why bother putting a separate statline for him if it didn't count as a separate group for wound allocation?

As Kaloran suggested if we look at p.25 of the BRB we get the following two lines.

"The rules for taking saving throws and removing casualties, as presented so far, assume that all of the models in the target unit are identical in gaming terms. By this we mean they have the same profile of characteristics, the same special rules, and the same weapons and wargear."

Later we have:

"Having allocated the wounds, all of the models in the unit that are identical in gaming terms take their saving throws at the same time in one batch."

The key phrases here are "they have the same profile of characteristics," and "identical in gaming terms."

Since the Assault Terminator Seargent has the same profile, and is "identical in gaming terms," the unit is one group for wound allocation.

The rules on p.25 makes no mention of having a different name, just an identical profile of stats.

At least that's the way I read it. YMMV, and I am sure Gwar's does.

So if you had a squad of 5 TH/SS termis and 5 LC ones, the sergeant being a LC one, you would contend that there are only 2 groups for wound allocation, despite the fact its spelled out that he has a different profile.

Again, I still cannot see why they would bother giving the Assault Terminators a sergeant statline at all if it did not affect anything.

Gwar! wrote:But he is. The name of the profile still must be taken into consideration, otherwise they would not bother to give him a Separate Statline, especially in the case of Assault terminators where they have a grand total of 2 options to pick from.

If it was intended for him to be counted as the same, why not just make it "5 Assault terminators" rather than 1 Terminator Sergeant and 4 Assault Terminators? I mean the sergeant has the exact same weapon options and other stats as his squad, so why bother putting a separate statline for him if it didn't count as a separate group for wound allocation?

I can only assume that the reason the sergeant is listed is because EVERY marine unit (other than vehicles and ICs) has a sergeant. I've bolded the part that makes the point of the argument.

Gwar! wrote:So if you had a squad of 5 TH/SS termis and 5 LC ones, the sergeant being a LC one, you would contend that there are only 2 groups for wound allocation, despite the fact its spelled out that he has a different profile.

Yes.

Gwar! wrote:Again, I still cannot see why they would bother giving the Assault Terminators a sergeant statline at all if it did not affect anything.

See first statement above.

So its official, I am losing mah marballz.

I still say having a different name and separate statline counts for wound allocation, but meh. This was just a "wtf is this" post.
I dont really care much either way, and this situation will come up so rarely it's not worth the argument, even for me

The rules say nothing about a different stat line.

The mention a profile of characteristics. The name is not listed as a characteristic, thus it does not matter.


Further, they are supposed to be identical in game terms.... a different name has no effect on game play....

Gwar! wrote:So its official, I am losing mah marballz.

It's cool, I agreed with you. So at least we're crazy together.

I'd personally file this as RaW versus RaI, but c'est la vie.

Because, by their argument, the most common thing that decides what is and is not a member of the same group is a point of leadership.

Gwar! wrote:So its official, I am losing mah marballz.

I still say having a different name and separate statline counts for wound allocation, but meh. This was just a "wtf is this" post.
I dont really care much either way, and this situation will come up so rarely it's not worth the argument, even for me

While RAW seems ambiguous about this, it seems as though RAI is for the sgt to count in the same wound group. I am basing this off the assumption that the profile, while identical in all but name, is separated from the rest of the unit simply because the Sgts have different gear options. While assault terminator sgts have no additional options, it is the only infantry unit in the SM dex without different options for the Sgt. As a result, the separation in the codex of the assault terminator sgt and the other assault terminators is likely simply keeping the convention of all SM infantry having a Sgt. For game purposes though I would say that the most pertinent text is as follows, p.25 BRB:

"Having allocated the wounds, all of the models in the unit that are identical in gaming terms take their saving throws at the same time, in one batch. Casualties can then be chosen by the owning player from amongst these identical models."

"identical in gaming terms" is the pertinent part. I would not consider the name difference to negate that they are otherwise identical.

Dracos wrote:

"identical in gaming terms" is the pertinent part. I would not consider the name difference to negate that they are otherwise identical.

Exactly, Dracos has the important part.

The most important qualifier is this one part of a line. If in game terms (i.e. same stats, same weapons, same wargear, same etc...) then that model is the same as the rest of the models in his group/unit regardless he has a different 'name' than his unit. Because in game terms a name means nothing. Heck half the time my gaming group calls any squad leader a 'sergeant' regardless of the army they play.