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They are back, and badder than ever!

One of the pickup lines for 5th edition was something like "and with the addition of run, Necrons can finally build a competative assault force". Hilarity, obviously, but what if GW was right?

I present the return of one of my old gimmick lists!

Deceiver
Lord w/Destroyer Body, wargear to max, Warscythe
10 Scarabs w/dfields
10 Scarabs w/dfields
10 Scarabs w/dfields
3 Tomb Spyders
3 Tomb Spyders
3 Tomb Spyders
10 warriors
10 warriors
10 Flayed Ones


Deployment is simplicity itself. Spyders in front, scarabs behind, rocking the cover save. Deceiver in the front line, Lord in the scarab cloud. Warriors in reserve, Flayed ones outflank or deep strike, whichever looks most likely to allow them to get out of LOS and hide. Round 1, all spyders move foward while making more bugs and running, Deceiver in the midst. All bugs turbo boost towards best areas.

After one round of surviving enemy shooting (scarabs have 2+ cover saves from boosting, or 3+ from hiding behind other squads spyders, the scarabs pounce and try to hold the enemy in place. If they can, the big bugs eat them up shortly later on. Necrons roll up later on and hide, or sit on the home team's objective.

Enemy counterattack is murdered by the deceiver.

Victory for Team Necrons! In 5th edition no less!

What say you, Dakka?

i wish i had the cron codex so i could comment. I am so curious to see if what you are fielding is effective!

Lol I remember talking this over with you at last years Big Waaagh. It would be nice to see it played. I think it has an edge on most armies out there right now and would freak people out as to how in the world to deal with it.

Its hard to say how it will do in this enviroment, probably pretty well since most are going heavy anti armor and not so much anti swarm. Those few armies that take flamers are going to be a buzzkill though.

Heh. It's worth a shot, and I've got the models kicking around from 4th edition...

If I had the models, I would try this out. I think it will work, and at the very least it will be a blast to play with.

The only problem is if your warriors somehow get jacked from behind by deepstrikers or outflankers. You could very quickly hit phaseout.

Are flayed ones cheaper than warriors? Maybe swap them out for warriors for another scoring unit.

whitedragon wrote:The only problem is if your warriors somehow get jacked from behind by deepstrikers or outflankers. You could very quickly hit phaseout.

Are flayed ones cheaper than warriors? Maybe swap them out for warriors for another scoring unit.

Flayed Ones do indeed cost the same as Warriors. I completely agree that would make the list stronger.

While this is probably as competitive as you can make a Necron list in 5th, it still looks like it will get completely dismantled by Nob bikers, Lash, Bloodcrushers, Immolator SoB, and most of the other "top" builds. And the new IG will obviously grind it into dust with ordnance.

@Deuce: I'll let you know how it turns out. Definitely going to try this somewhere.

@Clay: Maybe I'll take this to the Waargh. I need to redeem myself after a poor showing there last year. Be cool to be up at the top tables of a 5th edition tournament with Necrons.

@Ext: It really is. The whole jetbike plitz followed by inexorable advance is a cool schitck, kind of feels like Necrons from the fluff. In addition, putting 27 more wounds on the table each round can be amusing.

@Whitedragon: Definitely, that's the main drawback of this list. I'm actually pretty good with it (or at least I was), though, and outflankers can be dealt with by remaining centrally located or lining the board edge with scarabs. Deep strikers are more of an issue though, particularly thunderhammer terminators. I usually keep a unit or two back to handle such things (as units with serious deep strike tend to lack the force that necessitates a full blitz), and the Deceiver can obviously warp back via misdirect + move + run if needed. He loves him some storm shield terminators.

Flayed Ones vs. Warriors: I really like the idea of using Flayed Ones, mostly because then if I wreck a scrub I might get to hear him complain about how broken my list was, and the idea of someone who hadn't seen the game hearing about that BS flayed one army cracks me up. They've actually got a decent amount to recommend them, deep strike and outflank helping me hide from the enemy.

If I dropped them and the flying walker popper that is the Lord I could afford some Necron shooting, probably 2 small units of Immortals. Alternatively, I could turn the Lord into a ROVOD Lord and make one of the three Necron units into an objective claiming teleport squad. Not an awful idea.


@Danny: Don't underestimate this list, I don't think the counters you've described are as impressive as you think.

Nob Bikers: The Deceiver can wreck a unit alone, and I think the Spyders would be able to hold another long enough for him to get there. Remember misdirect, and the value of turbo boosting scarab bases to hold a Nob Biker unit in place. Might not though, a lot depends on how long the warriors + Flayed Ones stayed out. I think you'd have a decent shot. (50 50)

Lash: They are going to need to be extremely fortunate to ever lash anything. The scarabs will eat up the rhinos, and once out of rhinos they are effectively helpless against the Tomb swarm (proxy it up, it's an obscenity). Once again the Deceiver is clutch, as he thwarts attempts to run amuck. The big question is whether the sorcerer lashing the scarabs into clumps can allow the pie plates to kill them despite the 2+ cover save from turbo boosting before the bugs get charges on the rhinos and stall them out. I'd be highly confident in this matchup. (70/30 crons vs. a lasher who grokked my list, 90/10 versus someone who hadn't play/theoried it before)

Bloodcrushers: Presumably you mean a Daemon army. With 30 bases turbo boosting around and ten serious units we make it a tough landing, and Tomb Spyders can wreck Soul Grinders easily but yes, the Deceiver can only be in one place at a time, while the Heralds + Crushers can be in 7. I think Khorne Daemons would probably get me 70/30, with the # going down as the Daemons get scrubbier. Tzeentch Daemons, on the other hand, the crons would murder effortlessly. Scarabs pin all the s5 MC's down the turn after they land, then the Tomb Swarm + Big D handles them, with D taking care of Kairos personally.

Sisters: I guess? Seems like the MCs would eat em up though, and even the scarabs threat 18", which is comparable to their rhinos drive + flame range. Can't predict it since i don't see how the sisters would have any kind of chance. What's their anti-Tomb Spyder weapon? Rapid fire bolters? Anti-Deceiver?

@NewIG: Depends, obviously, on what they've brought. I could easily see them omitting the hellhounds for Vendettas or what have you, and finding themselves unable to deal with 30 turbo boosting scarabs. And, against vehicle squadrons, scarabs can wreak havoc. If they disrupt the shooting even a little the MCs will get there, and even the new IG codex doesn't have anything to stop Big D and the Tomb Swarms once they get up close. I think they need to concentrate their fire on the Deceiver and the bugs at the same time, and they can't do both. Crux of the game is how long the crons stay out. If the all important 3rd unit stays out till the 4th round (decent shot) thre probably won't be sufficient firepower to get them out of their cover. I'd be confident in this game. I'll predict 70/30 Crons.

It looks alright, but at 2k its lacking Warriors. You have a lot of MC's and scarabs, but taking out 20 warriors would be easy to do IMO while ignoring the deciever, its not that hard to shoot him to death, mass fire and its gone. What would you do against Green Tide? Droppod Assault Marines? Ninja Tau? Mechanized eldar! (your slow, they could just shoot and out manuevre you with their speed and still kill your guys, and the deceiver is fun and all but really he will die very quickly to mass firepower... I had 5 lootas put 2 wounds on him in one round of shooting lol...)

Green Tide is really what I think will give you the biggest problem, with 20 boyz a DD and a BM I have taken out 2 tomb spiders and 10 scarab bases in 3 turns. Add another 160 boyz and I wouldn't be worried about anything other than the deceiver.

The idea is fun and its an interesting concept, but I have my doubts, run some games with it, I would really like to see how it performs vs. some powergaming lists in an actual game

I seem to remember people saying that, NECRONS ARE USELESS WITHOUT DESTROYERS!!!!!!!!!

I really think you underestimate the dual lash chaos player. If they have 2x Lash, plague marines and max oblits, I really don't see how the deceiver lives to make it across the table. The scarabs also bounce off of plague marines. The Tomb Spiders will eventually carry the combat in your favor when they reach the enemy (are they jetbikes too?), but until then, they and the deceiver suck as many lascannon or plasma templates as the oblits can muster.

After that, your troops are at the mercy of being lashed into the effective range of the rest of the Chaos army, and then it's game over.

Hell, if the scarabs charge the chaos rhinos, the plague marines just charge back in the following turn, and cause a hella lot more wounds then being charged. I just don't think they will stick around for more than 2 rounds or so against Plague Marines. (Hell even 30 orks have a hard time killing plague marines.)

I'm not saying that it's auto lose, I'm just saying that it won't be the auto-win you think it will be. With that being said, I really really like your Necron idea, and I think it's probably one of the best ways to play it in 5th. The destroyer lord should probably be a walking lord with VoD and res orb though, and the flayed ones should really go. You are really going to benefit from 3 troop squads, + VoD to get one of them on an objective late game vice having the flayed ones just contest.

This list looks like a lot of fun to play!

Also, I wouldn't alter the list just to deal with certain very powerful army configurations out there... I think this would rock against most lists

Nob Bikers: The Deceiver can wreck a unit alone, and I think the Spyders would be able to hold another long enough for him to get there. Remember misdirect, and the value of turbo boosting scarab bases to hold a Nob Biker unit in place. Might not though, a lot depends on how long the warriors + Flayed Ones stayed out. I think you'd have a decent shot. (50 50)

Nob bikers will kill any of your units of Scarabs in a single round of close combat effortlessly. They won't even be a speed bump. Remember, with correct weapons loadout the entire squad will insta-kill whole bases with every unsaved wound. All the Ork player has to do is get into combat with your Necron models and it's almost instantly game over thanks to Phase Out. He only has to kill 24 models to win.

Lash: They are going to need to be extremely fortunate to ever lash anything. The scarabs will eat up the rhinos, and once out of rhinos they are effectively helpless against the Tomb swarm (proxy it up, it's an obscenity). Once again the Deceiver is clutch, as he thwarts attempts to run amuck. The big question is whether the sorcerer lashing the scarabs into clumps can allow the pie plates to kill them despite the 2+ cover save from turbo boosting before the bugs get charges on the rhinos and stall them out. I'd be highly confident in this matchup. (70/30 crons vs. a lasher who grokked my list, 90/10 versus someone who hadn't play/theoried it before)

You have nothing to break open Rhinos, only Scarabs to try and get lucky and kill via glances. On average, a full unit will only score 3 glances against a Rhino that has moved up to 6"--that's not enough to kill it. You'll lose the entire unit to plasma cannons in the following shooting phase after he lashes you into a circle. You'll be forced to play aggressively to stop Lash, and the only units in your army that are fast are Scarabs. The match turns into 30 Scarabs vs the entire Chaos army. Which do you think wins?

Bloodcrushers: Presumably you mean a Daemon army. With 30 bases turbo boosting around and ten serious units we make it a tough landing, and Tomb Spyders can wreck Soul Grinders easily but yes, the Deceiver can only be in one place at a time, while the Heralds + Crushers can be in 7. I think Khorne Daemons would probably get me 70/30, with the # going down as the Daemons get scrubbier. Tzeentch Daemons, on the other hand, the crons would murder effortlessly. Scarabs pin all the s5 MC's down the turn after they land, then the Tomb Swarm + Big D handles them, with D taking care of Kairos personally.

If we're talking competitive lists, we're talking Fateweaver + tons of Bloodcrushers. Invulnerable saves (especially when you can re-roll them) render your gimmick (MC spam) ineffective. It'll be 2 close combat armies duking it out, and yours will be as severely outmatched as is possible within the confines of Warhammer 40,000. His units will walk all over yours, and if he contacts your Flayed Ones or Warriors you Phase Out.

Sisters: I guess? Seems like the MCs would eat em up though, and even the scarabs threat 18", which is comparable to their rhinos drive + flame range. Can't predict it since i don't see how the sisters would have any kind of chance. What's their anti-Tomb Spyder weapon? Rapid fire bolters? Anti-Deceiver?

Immolators make your Scarabs go away. You'll spend the rest of the game trying to hide your Flayed Ones and Warriors so that you don't hit Phase Out. Your Spyders will be ignored since you can't catch up to a mech army.

Again with the back and forth.

Play test it, post Bat reps, prove people wrong. Thats the way to get things done Walt.

Clay Williams wrote:Again with the back and forth.

Welcome to the internet?

Play test it, post Bat reps, prove people wrong. Thats the way to get things done Walt.

I could argue with someone about how awesome Chaos Spawns are all day long, but just because I argue it doesn't mean the argument has any merit. Sure, this list is good as far as Necron lists go. Unfortunately, the codex is severely gimped in 5th edition and any of the aforementioned lists will stomp the one presented here through no fault of its creator.

Danny Internets is right about eveything. And I agree to playtest it because we can theoryhammer all day, but I don't see how it is strong with a psuedo-MC spam and has a low Phase Out count.

Doesn't really matter how strong it is... as long as it's fun?

That's the game I'm playing, right guys?

"Who's with me!"

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(awkward coughing)

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(shuffling feet)

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(crickets chirping)

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"...Guys? There's a draft in here..."

RiTides Nids wrote:Doesn't really matter how strong it is... as long as it's fun?

That's the game I'm playing, right guys?

Well, he specifically indicated in the thread title that this is meant for competitive play

@Ezekk:

Green Tide would be tough. It's an uncommon playstyle though, because Lash Chaos is the most common tournament list at the moment, and its an Ork predator. I've got a couple of edges vs. the greenskins (base size fu, etc.) but they would probably get me in the end, as they can rip through all my guys eventually.

@Phantommaster: They were lying to you.

@Whitedragon:

You seem like a reasonable guy, I think the two of us can come to an understanding. This is how I see that game going, with the lasher having a winged prince, a winged sorcerer, 4 rhinos of plagues and 3x3 oblits. I'm going to use your plan for the chaos player

Crons go first:
Round 1: Scarabs turbo boost to assault range, spread out (but close enough that it'll take 2 lashes to get us back out of assault range). Deceiver + MC swarm runs forward.

9 oblits fire at Deceiver, 6 hit, 4 wound, he fails 2 saves. Remainder of shooting is at Scarab swarms from out of the top hatches of rhinos, and is by and large ineffective.

Round 2: Scarabs jump everyone. Call it 1 rhino immobilized, and all are stunned + surrounded by scarabs. One warrior squad comes on in far left corner ~36" away from stuff, hides in cover. Bugs move into assault range. Oblits deal 2 more wounds.

Lashers pull bugs off, Plagues hop out (otherwise they'll be ripped out in their assault phase, as the scarabs gnaw on the now stationary vehicle). Between fists and the DP 2 whole squads of scarabs are obliterated Plagues locked in combat in all but one place (where the Prince helped out).

Round 3: Flayed Ones come on, hide somewhere. Tomb spyders + big D swarm the plaguemarines, kill them all and massacre onwards. Deceiver has hit combat, and with misdirect he'll never leave.

At this point its an untenable game. The Tomb Spyders have basically recreated the Scarab mob (they've made 9x3 at this point) and the Deceiver is closing in.

Now, this is a bit of an apocalypse scenario for the lashers. They went second, which they only have 1/2 of doing, and they didn't get lucky vs. Big D. Further, by remaining back, they could postpone the climactic assault a round or so. Fundamentally though, the problem remains. The Necrons won't come on till 2/3, and then they'll have a forest of big bugs to hide behind. The MC Lasher can't fly through that or around it because he doesn't know where they will be. The infantry lasher can't drive through it because it'll rip him apart.

If the Lashers go first, they can trade lashers for scarabs by moving up and balling them up, but if they do they'll lose the lashers when the remaining bugs hold them for a round and the spyders/C'tan get them. If they have Berserkers instead of plagues they can obliterate the scarabs with their charge and massacre backwards before losing too much power from their rides, then try and ride around the spreading scarab/spyder cloud and get to the crons. It's not hopeless.

On the other hand, lots can go wrong. The Deceiver can pin a crucial squad during an early round. They could fail a lash and lose a squad to a rhino dying while fully surrounded.

Thus, my estimate is 70/30. I'll keep responding if you want to talk it over some more, this is just how I see it going.

@RiTides Nids: Yeah, it's a blast.

@Danny:

I don't mind argueing, like you said, its the internet.

Nobs, Bugs boost around a squad of Nob Bikers. Squad has to assault to get out. Next set of bugs repeat. I didn't mean to hold them in place in combat, I know how a Nob Biker squad works.

Lash, see above

Fatecrusher: s5 attacks won't get the crushers out of the crush in a timely fashion. Deceiver slaps Kairos down after a misdirect off some PBs or Pink Horrors, fights crushers for rest of game.

Sisters: still don't get it. Bugs threat 18", almost as much as drive + flame. MCs don't care about flame at all. Sisters have no way to reach out and touch warriors in cover, Deceiver murders anything in their list. They can't make it through the tomb swarm to assault the crons. Maybe if they drive full speed through the swarm with 4 or so rhinos one will make it through, but they still can't assault the round they hop out, and the Necrons can just surround them with one rapid firing unit while the other walks away, if its even on the board.

@RiTides Nids, Redux: Well, I did ask how strong folks thought it would be. I can't complain when they give their answers, even if I disagree. As you say, it'll certainly be fun.

I'm looking forward to battle reports to display the reality of this army, rather than bickering back and forth.

I ws messing around with a list that looks VERY similar to this the other day (though at 1850pts) so I'm interested to see what kind of effect it has in real games.

This kinda thinking is why im choose two eradicators over a colossus or hellhound/chemwolf or more to the point, more deadly russ varients.

It appears to be competitive at first sight.
However, you have only two scoring units that you definitely want to stay out of harms way. But outflankers could try to target them or units with ordnance or blasts (plasma cannons).
The rest looks pretty solid.

MUAHAHAHHAHAHAHA!! ok no, seriously, I just laughed for reals, this is AWESOME a truly fantastic Idea. I am seriously thinking people are underestimating your list, especially the potential death swarm the scarabs are going to end up being... Each time you produce a scarab swarm, and keep in mind thats 9!!! a turn, you potentially increase their wounds exponentially, in one turn of pooping some scarabs, thats 3 more wounds to it. Not to mention you can move, run, and still produce scarabs!!! that means by turn 2 you have 6 additional wounds per spyder. JEBUS!! In honesty, the flayed ones gots to go, they are USELESS!! seriously, they are a close combat unit, functioning as snipers, with no real combat boost per their cost. I LOVE this concept, and I also agree, the only real change Id make, get another decent sized warrior unit in place of the flayed ones and run the lord with them, keep in mind, he can have the destroyer body and still join them, so you could leave him as is.

I love the idea of this list, and its nice to see an inventive necron list.

but you've got it completely wrong about how the game Vs Lash list will go.

He'll just nuke all the scarabs turn one (very easy with 2k army) then slowly shoot you to death, lashing back anything that gets close.

I also see any kill point game going badly (once those spiders have produced 2 scarabs each, they become average T3, so easy to kill).

Nuking down 90 wounds of 2+ saves is not easy. AND that is the point you have already fallen for the bait by shooting at the scarabs first turn.

Lashing back 9 independent units.....?

T3 but now with 3+ cover saves, remember all they have to do is move into cover, take a DT and plop plop fizz fizz.

I am not seeing lash lists do as well l8ly, the majority of people are figuring out the weakness in it along with those of us that already know how to play against it.

It is easy with Orbital Bombardment or Vindicator Line Squadron. Of which I have both in a 1000pt army.

Regardless, he is still going to have 2+ cover saves, and orbital bombardment stays in the same place the whole damn game, and vindicators though good are going to get destroyed by mad scarabs, which with all that points of stuff at 1000 pts, doesnt leave much left

Some Orbital Bombardments don't allow cover saves

Wh is Deceiver the answer for every problem? It shouldn't be overly difficult for most armies to deal him 10 wounds (average needed to kill him through his 4+ invulnerable) even at T8.

The new IG book seems to really hamstring your strategy too with numerous good options for weapons that ignore cover saves (Eradicator, Hydra come to mind the quickest and both instant kill Scarab bases) in addition to massive amounts of high str/low AP firepower. Weaken Resolve can also phase you out very quickly if you aren't extremely careful. I don't see this beating any good competitive new IG list.

Looks like a cool idea, but there are at least a couple problems.

The first is that you really are going to have to be careful about phase out, you just dont have many necron bodies. If your opponent has anything that *might* be able to deep strike or infiltrate its going to tie you in knots. You just cant afford to lose many warriors. Orcs with Boss Zagstruck and a squad of storm boys might be able to phase you out almost by himself. Just the threat of an infiltrating or deepstriking unit or two will cause you to radically change your deployment. Saying that you can line the board edge with scarabs is nice, but then the spyders are going to go win it by themselves?


The other big problem you have is with your plan to give the scarabs a cover save from the spyders. Tomb spyders are single monstrous creatures, not a unit...so they dont give cover saves unless of course you can hide all of the spyders out of los behind them. If you go second, the spyders are only going to have their 5+ innate save. Maybe you will be able on some boards to place them all inside cover but you certainly cant count on that.

First turn shooting from a gunline army (orc lootas, eldar warwalker squad/ scatter laser, IG tanks) would have you starting turn 1 with half to a third of your starting scarabs. Str6+ weaponry isnt all that rare. The shooty eldar 2k list I used last week would on average kill 18 bases of scarabs if it got first turn. IG is sure to be around a lot now, and a first turn barrage from what they can field isnt going to leave you with many scarabs either.
You may have to adjust your deployment to hiding the scarabs back in whatever cover you can find, and let the shooty armies blow away spyders. MC dont get area cover saves so hiding the spyders is pretty much out of the question. Maybe the deceiver would draw fire, just pray that the two squads of warriors dont eat too many shots. You are going to have to hope the board is LOADED with cover, 30 scarabs and 20 warriors all need to find places to hide.


Against some armies you will have a grand time, but there are some that will find this a pretty easy target.


Sliggoth