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I've been fiddling with the new IG book for a couple of days now and working on a competitive list. So far this is where I'm at and I'm decently happy with it:

Company Command Squad: 2x Meltagun, Flamer, Astropath, Officer of the Fleet
Chimera: Multilaser, Heavy Flamer

9x Psyker Battle Squad
Chimera: Multilaser, Heavy Flamer

9x Psyker Battle Squad
Chimera: Multilaser, Heavy Flamer

Daemon Hunters Inquisitor: 2x Mystic

10x Veterans: 2x Meltagun
Chimera: Multilaser, Heavy Flamer

10x Veterans: 3x Meltagun

10x Veterans: 3x Meltagun

Vendetta: 3x Lascannon

Vendetta: 3x Lascannon

Leman Russ Executioner: Sponson Plasma Cannons

Leman Russ Executioner: Sponson Plasma Cannons

2x Hydra Battery: 2x Heavy Flamer

TOTAL: 1747
MODELS (infantry/tanks): 68 (58/10)
KILLPOINTS: 16
Thoughts/incite/constructive criticism is very welcome

Well...

I love it.

You COULD drop the advisors and a meltagun for a 3rd hydra. Not really sure you should do it. Its just there as an option.

I prefer heavy bolters on my hydras. Every once in a while I have a heavy bolter or two from the unit in LOS and range of my target. And since the hydra guns are 2 separate guns, i rarely move my hydras once set up. It's a nitpick, as most of the time I've purposely blocked the hull weapons LOS to get a 4+ cover save for the squadron.

And I just want to make sure I know your shorthand... 9 battle psykers means 1 overseer 8 psykers right?

That looks... totally badass.

As Shep said, I wouldn't take more than 8 psykers + Overseer.

The only potential problem is cracking Land Raiders open from ranges longer than 18"; Medusa with Bunker Buster is something I really enjoy running, but that's by no means a 'must have' for this list.

I think you've got your bases pretty well covered. If you wanted to be totally rock hard I'd drop the psyker squads down to 7/8 each and throw in a DH Inq with Mystics, but it's not like you have much problem here.

Ah sorry yes, the Choirs are 8 psykers + Overseer, I should have been more clear with that. I'll edit to make it easier to understand.

I considered the IQ and he was in an earlier draft of the list, but it was hard to really find points for him. If I can find 22 points pretty easily (drop 2 meltas form the CCS and then something else from somewhere?) I would certainly be interested in including it though. Deepstrikers seem like a huge threat to the mech style IG lists since they can get around to the sides/rear where the armor is weak. Smart play from me can minimize this, but I don't think I can perfectly protect against it all the time really. It would also be really nice to get some solid shots onto a Grinder/Dread/insertunithere when it falls near me though since that can help me keep fire more concentrated on my turn.

I really wanted a third Hydra in the list (at 1850 there will be 3 for sure) but I like what the advisors bring to the table for me. I feel like the bonus to my reserves and outflank rolls are very helpful for getting the 'Dettas on when and where I want them. Simultaneously I like holding my opponents reserves a bit since it lets me work the table and create a situation that lets me dictate where they can/should land (in a sense it lets me force themto play my game a little bit and can mess with their strategy). Sure this can result in facing the bulk of the reserves at once later i nthe game, but at that point I should, in theory, have a fair amount of control over the table so that when the rest of the army falls, I'm in a good position to deal with it in a short amount of time. In objective missions I souhld be controlling/ontesting enough to win on turn 5 I think, especially if the Vendettas remain in tact (their mobility seems so important here). I've been considering really jostling things around to include a second CCS for a second set of advisors but it is a whole lot of points and possibly overkill. I can't make great use of the extra orders since most of my infantry is riding in planes so it would more or less be some more meltas and more +1/-1 for reserves stuff. I'd also likely have to drop a Psyker unit to make it fit, which I really don't want to do since they're just that good.

Shep you bring up an interesting observation with the Hydras that I hadn't considered. I was basically assuming hordes would come to me so by about turn 3-4 I would be able to maneuver and lay 6 heavy flamer templates across their front line. I never even considered that there can/will be times when I can draw LoS with the hull weapon. I need to consider this one as I like the idea of the HB coming in with the Hydra shots a lot.

I would drop one of the psyker squads and pick up a vanilla LRBT to pair up with one of the Executioner variants to be the designated gimp via squadron rules. That will help to ensure that you'll always have those plasma cannons able to fire at a target when you need them.

Finding 32 points to get an Inquisitor + 2 mystics is also a change I think you should make. It will virtually guarantee a win against armies that depend on deep strike rules, especially if they're melta-heavy.

I've been giving lots of thought to the IQ and I think its worthwhile to include him. I should probably not lose against Daemons, Lash/Oblit spam or Drop Pods at that point and it seems nice lock up an entire matchup against Daemons especially for a mere 32 points. What should I drop to find the room for them? I can cut 2 meltas from the CCS, but I still need to scrape for 2 points (which is seriously annoying since it seems I have to drop things in blocks of 10 points).

List is updated in the oroginal post of this thread. Here is what I did to make room for the IQ:

-2x Meltagun from CCS
-1x Meltagun from the Chimera Vets
+DH IQ +2x Mystic
+1x Flamer for CCS (8 points to spare and nothing to spend it on so flamer ftw)


Does this seem ideal? I'm not overly thrilled with losing 3 meltas but they were dropped from units that can benefit from "Bring It Down" so the remaining meltas can be twin linked if necessary, which should be fine.

For the 2 points, are Chimeras required to be equipped with 2 heavy weapons each? If possible, dropping one to pick up some spare points wouldn't significantly reduce your firepower.

Yes they are. The Multilaser and Heavy Bolter/Heavy Flamer (player's choice) come on the tank as its base model. Weapon upgrades are possible but it will always have 2 weapons.

I'm not altogether unhappy with the change, I just wish I still had those 3 meltas I had to drop. Its unfortunate that I seem to have to drop points in blocks of 10 since it results in some unused points.

What are the saves/toughness of the inquis & his mystics?

Id also suggest either change the equipement of the vets to anti-heavy troops or anti-horde (plas/flamer/gl - a poor both) or change the vendetta to a valkyrie with dual rocket pods.

Out of curiousity why would you recommend dropping the Lascannons and melta weapons? They are my only real out against AV14 (the meltas moreso but the lascannons are great against MCs and AV12 such as skimmers that aren't moving fast and they can damage AV14 with lucky rolls or enough time to shoot at it) so they're rather necessary. They're also both just fine against heavy infantry for my needs (I'm more afraid of resilient things like Nob Bikes/Monsterous Creatures) and the pair of Execs should have that area covered nicely. For horde matchups I have multilasers running wild and the Execs do damage as well. When they get close I have 6 tank shocking heavy flamers clearing my lines, which can and will do very substantial damage.

I feel weaker against heavy armor than I do against heavy infantry or resilient non-vehicle units.

The IQ/Mystics die to just about everything. I wish I had a tank to hide them in but as it stands they'll just cower out of LoS behind a Chimera or something. They're T3 with a 5+ save just like normal guard IIRC.

What are the saves/toughness of the inquis & his mystics?

Doesn't really matter--you hide them behind tanks in the core of your army so nothing can shoot at them. It's a 3 model unit so it's very easy to completely obscure. It only needs to survive until the enemy's reserves come down.

It can be a bad liability in KP missions though since a very minimal amount of fire can easily kill it (which is why I wish I could hide it in a tank). KP missions seem sketchy for a list like this though since I have 17 KPs to give. I assumed the risk there and just ignored it on the premise that I can simply kill more stuff than my opponent in KP missions (as opposed to deny them kps to try and compensate for a low score on my part).

The problem I see with the list is the lack of something to deal with a mob of dudes.

Personally I'd add Pask in a Punisher, kills MCs, transports, and mobs of dudes. if you put a lascannon on the hull he can double as a semi-anti heavy armor with a BS4 S10 weapon

Maybe take out one of the Executioners?

Eh, here is how I see the firewpoer breakdown vs the different army/unit types:

anti-tank:
10x melta
6x TL Lascannon
4xTL Hydra Autocannon (light armor and skimmers beware)

Anti-Heavy infantry/resilient target:
10x Melta
6x TL Lascannon
10x Plasma Cannon blast (2 Execs shooting all weapons are 5 each)
6x Multilaser (Volume of Fire gets through things like Assault Termies eventually, see next weapon for the rest)
2x Psychic Choir (if the unit needs a check, they're gonna fail it. Rolling low for AP on soulstorm can demolish some targets as well)

Anti-Horde:
10x Plasma Cannon Blast
6x Multilaser
4x TL Autocannon
2x Psychic Choir (soulstorm is nasty here being a big blast, and WR making units fail their checks from taking 25% casualties)
6x Heavy Flamer (the horde gets close... then gets 6 templates in its face and if needed tank shock first to ball the units up for maximal coverage)
1x Flamer
23x Lasgun

If anything I want more AT fire to help me deal with high AV targets like Land Raiders (when breaking it down it seems like I'm deficient in AT fire in general though and the majority of what I do have is 12" range). I've been considering dropping an Exec for a Medusa with bunker busters (and prolly a naked LR to squadron with the remaining Exec), or perhaps a Demolisher with PC sponsons (str10 rolling 2d6 pick the highest should be good enough to damage a Land Raider). Demolisher also helps me break down units like Nob Bikes and horde armies since it gives me a pie plate. Hordes tend to need to come towards me so its range isn't a massive concern.

If I was going to include a dedicated anti-horde weapon though, it would most likely be an Eradicator. Denying cover saves is absolutely brutal since it is the main source of protection for horde armies. It can tear things like Orks and Gaunts apart by forcing them out of their saves.

If Pask is included then a Punisher would likely be the ideal choice over the Eradicator. BS4 heavy20 weapon with crackshot is just wild. Interesting note on the lascannon hull too, I kindof like thatand didn't really consider it before. I could even include multimelta sponsons if the points allow, which goes a long way to solving my AV14 issues. Is Pask really worth the 50 points to upgrade a tank to have him though?

Its not so much that I'm worried about killing AV14 (it'll die for sure when it gets close to my 10 Meltas/CCS issuing BID) as it is that I'm worried about killing AV14 fast enough that it doesn't rampage just long enough to really scare me(not downing that Land Raider full of assault termies or other high strength cc power could go very badly when they land in my lines and charge 2-3 tanks at once hitting str8 on rear armor 10).

Am I looking at this wrong? I just feel that my anti-horde firepower is like double my anti-tank firepower.

I would be concerned if my best bet to kill AV 14 would only be meltaguns in Chimeras. I wouldn't take it as certain that my opponent would roll the AV 14 into my lines. They could sit back and hit the Chimeras with twin-linked lascannons. The AV 14 could be 7 enemy Leman Russ' !!!! Which would be a real pain. The AV 14 could be 3-4 Battrlewagons with a KFF, Meganobz, Tankbustas, et. al. which would have a real good chance of reaching the lines before getting destroyed.

Caffran9 wrote:

If I was going to include a dedicated anti-horde weapon though, it would most likely be an Eradicator. Denying cover saves is absolutely brutal since it is the main source of protection for horde armies. It can tear things like Orks and Gaunts apart by forcing them out of their saves.

Very true. Much needed. Alot of armies would be horribly hurt by cover-save ignoring weapons as they base solid troop formations around 2-3+ cover saves.

(N.b Cover ignoring weapons from 42" effective range from a very resistent platform in the form of a large blast)

Caffran9 wrote:
If Pask is included then a Punisher would likely be the ideal choice over the Eradicator. BS4 heavy20 weapon with crackshot is just wild. Interesting note on the lascannon hull too, I kindof like thatand didn't really consider it before. I could even include multimelta sponsons if the points allow, which goes a long way to solving my AV14 issues. Is Pask really worth the 50 points to upgrade a tank to have him though?

If you want this tank to perform a multi-task role.. similiar to that of an executioner, then yes - if it gets a hull lascannon. Expensive though & he offers no real protection, pask is purely an offensive option. I think he could do better on a full h.bolter exterminator. Yeah - thinking about it, much better, for the points you spend. I think every Av 11 rear russ has a price premuim which is only occasionaly worth it.
Vs an eradicator for what it does, no. Not at all. The 13 hits you will score from BS4 heavy 20 will wound lets say 9 times vs toughness 3. With a 2+ cover.. you will kill 1. Thats poor poor results. But ofcourse it can do other things. If you hit a 5man squad (Yes, I know - if) with an eradicator, you will kill 4. That forces a morale check with no hope of standard rallying.

After some discussion and a bit of thought, I think I had it wrong with the Punisher. It offers diversity but won't accel at a specific role, even with Pask. I could find better tank killing for much cheaper in the form of Vanquishers/Medusas/Devildogs. I also don't really think Pask is worth the 50 points. He brings some cool benefits to the tank he's in but the impact most likely won't be drastic enough to pull 50 points from elsewhere in the list.

I'm more and more intrigued by the Eradicator though, and will be examining the possibility of including one (with plasma cannon sponsons most likely) over an Exec. I'd be trading tanks that perform similar roles but the Eradicator's ability to ignore cover saves might give it a step up and make it more ideal to run 1 Exec and 1 Eradicator instead of 2 Execs. What I'm unsure about is if I should be trading an Exec in for something that can better deal with high AV vehicles. I can tear through transports/light AV armor without much issue I think, and I'm confident in my output against infantry. Perhaps I am being a bit paranoid at this point and in reality I can manage fine with smart play? 10 meltas are viscious. Short range sure, but I have the means to deliver them (Vendettas) and the guns to keep the tank glanced down at least from shooting (Vendettas again).

Against other guard I could find some trouble if they pack more Russes than me though. I think the Vendettas solve the problem admirably here though, the mobility they bring lets them get into the weak side armor of the Russ hulls. Opposing Hydras can make short work of them but hopefully I can have some meltas in on their line by them. If they bring mech/lots of transports then I'm not worried, I have a pretty silly amount of str7 firepower in my list (Execs can kill light armor in a pinch).

Maybe its worthwhile to look at Multimelta sponsons for one of the Execs?

Your 3 troops choices are pretty weak. A smart opponent, in an objectives mission, will wipe them out, making his task easier to get the win.

I normally play Marines, and I think 4 choices are needed....either all in power armor or scouts with camo cloaks in terrain.

For Guard, I'd go so much as 6 choices...an infantry platoon and some small tertiary squads should suffice.

General Hobbs wrote:
Your 3 troops choices are pretty weak. A smart opponent, in an objectives mission, will wipe them out, making his task easier to get the win.

I normally play Marines, and I think 4 choices are needed....either all in power armor or scouts with camo cloaks in terrain.

For Guard, I'd go so much as 6 choices...an infantry platoon and some small tertiary squads should suffice.

I gotta weigh in here...

I just disagree with this so passionately. I've now played close to 10 games against tourney players while fielding 30 veterans.

It's just not true that 30 is too light. If anyone 'went after' my vets, they'd get taken apart in the spam of a couple turns. Disrupting my killer units has to happen immediately, if you ignore the heavy hitters, you tools to take out my troops will evaporate before you can manage to remove even a single unit.

Caffran's got it even better than I do, with 20 of his 30 veterans not even starting on the table if he doesn't want them to, and when they do arrive, he has ultimate control over where he puts them.

Loading up on troops is a quick way to the bottom tables. Troops don't hit hard, and their objectives can be contested by anything and everything. Killing is what you want to be doing, with an eye towards securing a low number of objectives while blocking the rest.

I apologize if I'm coming off too harsh in response.

General Hobbs wrote:
Your 3 troops choices are pretty weak. A smart opponent, in an objectives mission, will wipe them out, making his task easier to get the win.

I normally play Marines, and I think 4 choices are needed....either all in power armor or scouts with camo cloaks in terrain.

For Guard, I'd go so much as 6 choices...an infantry platoon and some small tertiary squads should suffice.

Outflanking veterans in extra-armor-as-standard valkyries are not weak. 2 lots + some chimera vets is a strong choice.. But perhaps insuffecient at 1750pts.

Edit: & what shep said about needing to concentrate on the few death-units IG armies can field.

It is exactly what Shep said when it comes to 30 vets as my only troops. If my opponent try to stop me from winning by killing my troops, I'm going to demolish their army in only a couple of turns. In a lot of games, I will proably start with 20 of them in reserves with the Vendettas, which gives my opponent eve less time t otry and deal with them.

Initially, I thought I would need 40 vets. After tying with the list for a while though and looking at ways to play against it (and reading battle reports in which similar guard lsits were played), I realized that 30 should be completely fine. The key offensive units in the army are storng enough that they have to be the first priority because if they're allowed to do their jobs for a couple of turns unmolested then they're going to cripple the opposing army beyond repair.

I'm still considering an Eradicator (maybe 2) in my HS choices at the expense of one of the Execs. If I wanted more than one I'd have to drop a Psyker unit as well as an Exec. If I did that I'd be choosing between a squadron of 2 Eradicators or a single Eradicator and a naked LRBT to squadron with the Exec to be a damage mule. I could also drop a Choir and keep both Execs and run some combination of Execs and Eradicator in a squadron. I could also go with a MRP Valkyrie instead of an Eradicator. I'd be tempted to put my other unit of Vets in there though, but then I might be pulling too much stuff off the table?

I'm looking at perhaps a Vanquisher, 3rd Vendetta or maybe even a Devil Dog as well to help the AT area. The Devil Dog seems cool since its a fast vehicle so it can more 12" and fire its melta weapon giving it an effective 2d6 AP range of 24"

Either way I go I will most likely have to drop a Psyker unit to make room points wise. Is this a good decision? The psyker units are extremely powerful and work really well with other units in my army by helping turn a wound into a broken unit.

Caffran9 wrote:Either way I go I will most likely have to drop a Psyker unit to make room points wise. Is this a good decision? The psyker units are extremely powerful and work really well with other units in my army by helping turn a wound into a broken unit.

Talking about these same topics with KevinNash instead of working today...

You need to keep double psykers in the list until the last players in your meta drop footsloggers, then they lose their best ability, and transport kill and fearless 'heavies' kill is more useful.

Another thing to consider is that if you are looking for a unit to put in vendettas, its probably better to look at a 'hunter unit. 2x10 veterans in chimeras is a great way to cash in your required troops. But You have to ask yourself what is better jumping (or being thrown) out of a valk. 10x T3 5+ armor mans, or 5 T4 3+ armor fearless mans with WS5 an incinerator and strength 6 CC weapons, or 10 3+ armor stubborn gals with melta/melta/combi-melta.

Since the valk/vend is not a dedicated choice, you can explore a lot of options on what to put in it. 10 stubborn sisters landing in the backfield, firing a couple meltas then going to ground on an objective sounds pretty cool, and for just 60 more points than a vet unit.

I don't know if I'm going to like it more than pure IG, but when i run valk/vndetta, I think its a better option than the 100 point vet unit. 5 grey knights with an incinerator is an equally fun idea. Might be a touch easier to deal with for some armies, but precision incinerator, and strength 6 rear armor hits could be just what the doctor order for other armies

I haven't decided if I am running two PBS either, but when I shook the eight ball it turned up, "All signs point to yes."

This is where is see the same sort of hate for dual-PBS as one would get for dual-Lash, but if you are looking at highly competitive, dice-safe, list, I would do dual-PBS.

You start to hate life when the psychic test for the one turns up 10+. Sure.. throw the dice when both squads turn up 10+, but at least you get better odds of it going off when you need it.

AbsoluteBlue wrote:I haven't decided if I am running two PBS either, but when I shook the eight ball it turned up, "All signs point to yes."

This is where is see the same sort of hate for dual-PBS as one would get for dual-Lash, but if you are looking at highly competitive, dice-safe, list, I would do dual-PBS.

You start to hate life when the psychic test for the one turns up 10+. Sure.. throw the dice when both squads turn up 10+, but at least you get better odds of it going off when you need it.

You guys shouldn't be running those silly PBS anyway. That way I'm forced to cram 45 lootas back into my list and blow up 3 AR 12 vehicles a turn....

Oh wait, PBS is an elite slot.. I mean run three PBS units. just kidding..

Kevin Nash wrote:

AbsoluteBlue wrote:I haven't decided if I am running two PBS either, but when I shook the eight ball it turned up, "All signs point to yes."

This is where is see the same sort of hate for dual-PBS as one would get for dual-Lash, but if you are looking at highly competitive, dice-safe, list, I would do dual-PBS.

You start to hate life when the psychic test for the one turns up 10+. Sure.. throw the dice when both squads turn up 10+, but at least you get better odds of it going off when you need it.

You guys shouldn't be running those silly PBS anyway. That way I'm forced to cram 45 lootas back into my list and blow up 3 AR 12 vehicles a turn....

pssshhhhhh

I think Shep has it pretty much spot on, it is more of a meta call to run 2 PBS as opposed to 1. The unit is good enough that one can probably be included later when things have shifted, but at this point they're so good against the popular lists that running 2 is ideal.

I'm looking at dropping one of the Executioners for a Vanquisher to help with the anti-armor situation. I am very tempted to shoehorn Pask in at that point since making a Vanquisher BS4 would be outstanding. I'd give it a hull lascannon and sponson plasma cannons as well (crack shot BS4 plasma cannons seem like win). At that point I may be able to swap a Vendetta for a normal Valkyire w/MRPs, or a Chimera and 3rd Hydra. Thoughts?

I think Shep has it pretty much spot on, it is more of a meta call to run 2 PBS as opposed to 1. The unit is good enough that one can probably be included later when things have shifted, but at this point they're so good against the popular lists that running 2 is ideal.

I agree with 2 x PBS being a meta-game based decision as well. I had suggested dropping one earlier because my area has been fielding mechanized lists in tournaments for quite some time now (it's a no-brainer for 5th edition), but if your area still runs lots of hordes and foot-sloggers then PBS obviously increases in utility.

I think Mech really becomes almost necessary once 5th Ed Guard Lists are added to the mix. All of the top lists will be Mech for the near term. PBS and guard pie plate spam just makes that more so.

For that reason im going to run one PBS and plan to counter Mech Marines, Mech Lash, MechDar, Kult of Speed Orks with KFF Battlewagons, Mech Tau and of course Mech IG with my Indy GT circuit list. I doubt the metagame will have shifted before the Big Waagh, but By the end of the Summer and the new Indy GT in Philly this November we shoud be seeing a very mech centric metagame.

I'm seeing things change pretty quick around me and some of the people I play and talk with regularly. I've made some changes to reflect what it seems will be a trend towards mech lists, and I think that the list is more solid overall now. Here is a revised version:

Company Command Squad: 3x Meltagun, Flamer, Astropath, Officer of the Fleet
Chimera: Multilaser, Heavy Flamer

9x Psyker Battle Squad
Chimera: Multilaser, Heavy Flamer

Daemon Hunters Inquisitor: 2x Mystic

10x Veterans: 3x Meltagun
Chimera: Multilaser, Heavy Flamer

10x Veterans: 3x Meltagun

10x Veterans: 3x Meltagun

Vendetta: 3x TL Lascannon

Vendetta: 3x TL Lascannon

Bane Wolf: Hull Heavy Flamer, Smoke Launchers, Extra Armor

Leman Russ Executioner: Sponson Plasma Cannons

Leman Russ Vanquisher: Hull Lascannon, Commander Pask

2x Hydra Battery: 2x Heavy Flamer

TOTAL: 1747
MODELS (infantry/tanks): 59 (49/10)
KILLPOINTS: 16

I'm not sure if I like the Banewolf in there or not. I could switch it for a Devildog and then change drop the Vanquisher + Pask for a second Executioner. I just feel like Pask + Vanquisher is basically going to crack the scariest opposing armor and at the very least stop it from shooting. I want to put plasma cannon sponsons on it to make it a bit more diverse (the PC sponsons at BS4 aren't bad shooting against light armor with str8 from Pask either). I could also drop the Banewolf completely to get a naked Russ/Exerminator to go with Pask to try and mitigate some of the single shot high strength weapon damage he'll take.

Thoughts/suggestions on the new list?