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Marines have terminators with storm shields now...

Orks have Nob Bikerz...

What does guard have?

Psychic Choir and Vendettas.

Choir, no other unit in the guard codex changes the metagame like this unit. It gives IG's shooting the same devastating effect of melee.


I do not think IG has any other "killer" units, but they have some "really powerful units"

Vendetta.
LR Exterminator
Hydra
Vets
CCS
chimera?

All of these units are extremely well priced (some could say underpriced) for what they bring.

For the points, the Choir isn't that great. Without transport, you'll spend 130+ pts on the Choir, which is awfully close to a Russ. Give them a Chimera to ride, and suddenly, that Choir is costing *more* than a Russ.

The Vendetta is interesting, but it's a lot of points for a large, mobile twin-linked Lascannon with a 4+ Cover save. If you intend to fire all 3 guns, you have the same problem as a Falcon.

They're new and shiny, but point for point, I think Demolishers still rule the roost.

Marbo can do some crazy stuff. I also like the "without number" 50 man conscript squad that can be killed off whenever the IG player decides & brought back on the next turn. Good luck capturing both objectives in a capture & control mission.

Unlike Nob Bikers which require a HUGE amount of points IG can have a number of effective units that you are not breaking the bank in points to get.

Vendentta, its way too cheap.


3x TL las cannon , fast attack choice.

130 points.

JohnHwangDD wrote:For the points, the Choir isn't that great. Without transport, you'll spend 130+ pts on the Choir, which is awfully close to a Russ. Give them a Chimera to ride, and suddenly, that Choir is costing *more* than a Russ.

The Vendetta is interesting, but it's a lot of points for a large, mobile twin-linked Lascannon with a 4+ Cover save. If you intend to fire all 3 guns, you have the same problem as a Falcon.

They're new and shiny, but point for point, I think Demolishers still rule the roost.

Acutally it's only 110 for a maxed out Choir (no wargear or anything, just bodies), so 165 with stock chimera. And yes, it's worth it.

Also liking the Leman Russ executioner. Much more expensice, but 5 plasma cannon shots is nothing to sneeze at.

don_mondo wrote:Also liking the Leman Russ executioner. Much more expensice, but 5 plasma cannon shots is nothing to sneeze at.

Plus a lascannon or heavy bolter

JohnHwangDD wrote:For the points, the Choir isn't that great. Without transport, you'll spend 130+ pts on the Choir, which is awfully close to a Russ. Give them a Chimera to ride, and suddenly, that Choir is costing *more* than a Russ.

Who cares? It basically makes any non-fearless foot unit run off the table after a single round of shooting.

That 15 man squad of lootas over there that threatens to pick off your AR 12 vehicles? Weakened Resolve makes it run off the table after you kill 5 of them. That juicy 800 point nob biker unit over there? Kill 3 of them and it's gone instantly. At this point for serious play if the unit isn't in a vehicle or fearless it's probably not worth fielding because of the Choir.

I assure you it's well worth points.

I personally don't think the choir is the metagame destroyer everyone thinks it will be. It can hurt nob bikers pretty bad, (but you still have to make them take a morale or pinning test, and if you can do that consistently, you probably don't have much to worry about anyway.) The other power lists like Lash and Daemons are all fearless. The choir still has the problem in that if they really ARE that threatening to your army, its an easy enough matter to just wipe them off the board. They also still need to pass psychic checks and psychic defenses, so it reduces its effectiveness even more. They may find their niche as a useful unit, but they are more situational then an "I WIN" button some people are making them out to be. They're gonna be a nasty trick the first time an opponent plays them, but once people experience what they can do, their novelty will wear off and they'll simply be another option.

Personally I also don't think the vendetta is undercosted, it's mostly the fact that a comparable unit, the predator annihilator is severly overcosted. To utilize the vendetta's firepower it requires you to not utilize its mobility, so while they are dangerous and a good unit. Now the valkryies that can move 12" and put out 2 large blasts a turn....

Kevin Nash wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:For the points, the Choir isn't that great.

Who cares? It basically makes any non-fearless foot unit run off the table after a single round of shooting.

At this point for serious play if the unit isn't in a vehicle or fearless it's probably not worth fielding because of the Choir.

Given how cheap transports are getting, and how many Fearless units are out there, I don't see the fuss.

For the same points, I can drop another AV14-armored pie plate that hammers Fearless and transported units, too..

Yes, the Choir is good.

No, it's not a killer unit.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Kevin Nash wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:For the points, the Choir isn't that great.

Who cares? It basically makes any non-fearless foot unit run off the table after a single round of shooting.

At this point for serious play if the unit isn't in a vehicle or fearless it's probably not worth fielding because of the Choir.

Given how cheap transports are getting, and how many Fearless units are out there, I don't see the fuss.

For the same points, I can drop another AV14-armored pie plate that hammers Fearless and transported units, too..

But not one that makes 225 points worth of lootas sitting in cover run off the table on turn 1. Even ignore cover pies can't achieve this without lucky rolls or unlucky leadership on your opponents side.

Yes, the Choir is good.

No, it's not a killer unit.

The biggest threat to guard is long range AR 12 killing units. Like Lootas. They went from the cornerstone to any foot ork list to basically un-fieldable. Without loota fire supporting foot slogging orks the list doesn't work in competitive play. That's an entire army option that's been removed from the tourney meta-game.

I already pointed out Nob Bikers. They are also no longer an option since the choir absolutely wrecks them. Guard have enough str 8 options to support forcing a test. Wound gaffing isn't going to work.

Basically the choir took the ork codex's two best units and made them unplayable. Mech orks will probably still work, but those aren't exactly lighting up the meta game. I'm not sure if this is because everyone is using loota spam and nob bikers and haven't bothered looking any further into the codex or if it's because it just doesn't work. We'll have to see future tourney results to determine this.

Orks dominated the tourney scene last year. The probably won't do it again. Psykers will be the primary reason why and that's a serious meta-game shift. That makes them a killer unit.

OK, I see your point from a tournament POV. As I don't play tournaments, it's kind of off to the side for me.

A damned mortar platoon played with lethal accuracy!
Decimated too many of my squads to mention.
Really hate the guard!

The choir is great - thier still weak & the chimera isnt tough either. One lucky shot to blow this thing up forces dangerous terrain hits. Loosing the overseer kanes the entire squad. Loosing 4-5 of these guys basically guts them of thier effectiveness. What it can do, amazing. Leathal. Awesome.

Eradicator. Such win.

But against lootas, not only will you have to get in range and successfully cast the spell, but you still have to drop the unit to under 10. It's highly unlikely you'll be able to get in range first turn or even second if the ork player is smart about deployment. Thats plenty of time to murder your psyker squad. As soon as you pop the transport its pretty much GG for the unit. Based on the assumption that a tourney player knows what he's doing, he shouldn't have too much of a problem neutralizing the the psyker squad before it can use weaken resolve on his unit. For the points your better off with another leman russ in which the orks will have much more difficulty destroying, while still laying out plenty of fire.

JourneyPsycheOut wrote:But against lootas, not only will you have to get in range and successfully cast the spell, but you still have to drop the unit to under 10. It's highly unlikely you'll be able to get in range first turn or even second if the ork player is smart about deployment.

In a pitched battle range is easy if you deploy as close to the middle as possible. If the ork player pushes his lootas into a corner or out of line of sight then the psykers have already done their job: taking the lootas out of the fight.

Thats plenty of time to murder your psyker squad. As soon as you pop the transport its pretty much GG for the unit. Based on the assumption that a tourney player knows what he's doing, he shouldn't have too much of a problem neutralizing the the psyker squad before it can use weaken resolve on his unit. For the points your better off with another leman russ in which the orks will have much more difficulty destroying, while still laying out plenty of fire.

Not necessarily. Even if you go first you're neutralizing 1 psyker squad at best with the lootas. 1 shooting round to blast the chimera and another shooting round to finish them off assuming they are even in LOS after clearing out of the vehicle. Any good guard player that is going to take them to begin with should undoubtedly be taking two. If the ork player wipes out one the second one is still untouched.

I'll buy that lootas can make deployment out of 36" range but it's difficult to do that in a pitched battle while still making the unit relevant. If you force the ork player to deploy outside of 36" then you can simply deploy your artillery even farther out. Lootas are already gimped in DOW games. Spearhead is their best bet. But on turn 2 the psykers are in range again. If nothing else the lootas have to waste shots on Psyker chimeras instead of shooting at Hydras or Griffons.

You aren't even addressing what the psykers do to nob bikers: one failed test and that's basically game. There are simply too many points running off the table for an ork player to recover.

If you want to say a Lehman Russ is possibly better against fearless army X than a psyker squad I won't argue that. But against orks? Psykers are the perfect foil. If your metagame only consists of Demons and Chaos then by all means avoid the psykers. Most metagames don't look like that though so I'm not sure how you can downplay their dominance of a codex that performed very well in last years tournament season.

What... why would you waste Weaken Resolve on Lootas when you can blast them into oblivion with a Leman Russ?

Weaken Resolve is for dealing with 'power' units like Terminators and Nob bikers.

Nob Bikers are particularly vulnerable because they're far too expensive to have in squads big enough to have Fearless.

Cheese Elemental wrote:What... why would you waste Weaken Resolve on Lootas when you can blast them into oblivion with a Leman Russ?

Well it's impossible to completely take out multiple loota units with average rolls even shelling them in cover with multiple lehman russ and hydra units. At least not without several rounds of return fire. You can of course pack hate against them and stack griffons or colossus fire to avoid cover saves but then your list is vulnerable to demons again.

Weaken Resolve is for dealing with 'power' units like Terminators and Nob bikers.

Nob Bikers are particularly vulnerable because they're far too expensive to have in squads big enough to have Fearless.

I think Lootas warrant their attention. Unchecked loota units that can fire for 2-3 turns even if smaller from casualties can blow up half of an IG army's vehicles. Every Chimera chassis is getting blown off the table in this scenario. There is nothing more exciting to a unit of 30 boyz than a toughness 3 infantry unit on foot.

JourneyPsycheOut wrote:

Personally I also don't think the vendetta is undercosted, it's mostly the fact that a comparable unit, the predator annihilator is severly overcosted. To utilize the vendetta's firepower it requires you to not utilize its mobility, so while they are dangerous and a good unit. Now the valkryies that can move 12" and put out 2 large blasts a turn....

I agree. You have to sit still to fire everything. If you intend to go anywhere or not be a sitting duck up on that huge stand, you are only firing one BS3 lascannon per turn.

I think a lot of people are hot for Vendettas, but once the actual model starts hitting actual tables I think the excitement will wane a bit. It's still a *good* unit, it's just not great, same as the Hydra and choir.

BTW I find your avatar humorous.

GMMStudios wrote:
I agree. You have to sit still to fire everything. If you intend to go anywhere or not be a sitting duck up on that huge stand, you are only firing one BS3 lascannon per turn.

Fast vehicle so it can move 6 inches and fire still. Otherwise I tend to agree Lascannons are not all that hot in 5th.

I also agree that the IG seem to bring a lot of options for countering Ork's big guns (Nob bikers and the like)

Jack

JourneyPsycheOut wrote:Personally I also don't think the vendetta is undercosted, it's mostly the fact that a comparable unit, the predator annihilator is severly overcosted.

The closest match to the Vendetta is actually a Falcon with a Brightlance: BS3 AV12 Fast Skimmer Transport with long-range high-S AP2 guns. Despite their minor differences, both are capable of scoring up to 3 Lascannon-class hits, capable of carrying fewer (but better) models. Both notionally depend on speed for effectiveness, and need to choose between attack (6" move, all fire) and defense modes (Flat Out for 4+ SMF cover save). The Eldar currently pay 145 pts base for such a configuration, whereas the Vendetta costs 130 pts base. IMO, the Vendetta is fairly-costed for what it does, given the tactical trade-offs that need to be made.

A Predator Annihilator is NOT severely overcosted. It, however, is used very differently. Preds don't move, and they don't Transport. A Predator's job is to sit in good cover and fire 3 Lascannon shots at something big every turn, while taking advantage of it's AV13 front to stick around against counterfire.

Preads are junk.

Dont forget that a Psychic Choir can put a S9 AP1-6 pieplate on the table. While still inside of a Chimera.

It is a very versatile unit, and can be protected in a guard mech by playing the Chimera Shell game.

Ignoring all cover. Wow!. Doesnt anyone else think this is a powerful ability?

Just a note about the Psychic Choir, Lootas and the metagame.

This also depends on how common i will personally see them in tourneys.

I'm now looking at keeping my Lootas inside Battlewagons. With a Mek w/ KFF, it can still set up in decent fire lanes.

Time will tell if this will be necessary, but food for thought.

Razerous wrote:Ignoring all cover. Wow!. Doesnt anyone else think this is a powerful ability?

I would love to know how it ignores cover saves.

JourneyPsycheOut wrote:I personally don't think the choir is the metagame destroyer everyone thinks it will be. It can hurt nob bikers pretty bad, (but you still have to make them take a morale or pinning test, and if you can do that consistently, you probably don't have much to worry about anyway.) The other power lists like Lash and Daemons are all fearless. The choir still has the problem in that if they really ARE that threatening to your army, its an easy enough matter to just wipe them off the board. They also still need to pass psychic checks and psychic defenses, so it reduces its effectiveness even more. They may find their niche as a useful unit, but they are more situational then an "I WIN" button some people are making them out to be. They're gonna be a nasty trick the first time an opponent plays them, but once people experience what they can do, their novelty will wear off and they'll simply be another option.

Personally I also don't think the vendetta is undercosted, it's mostly the fact that a comparable unit, the predator annihilator is severly overcosted. To utilize the vendetta's firepower it requires you to not utilize its mobility, so while they are dangerous and a good unit. Now the valkryies that can move 12" and put out 2 large blasts a turn....

For fearless units simply lower their leadership then flame them with a calidus

Banewolf

Well I was under the assumption that weaken resolve had 24" range because that's what I had heard in rumours. Now seeing that it actually has 36" range, they does change things. It still is required for you to kill 1/3 of the unit (assuming full squad) before the power will have any effect but if you can manage that its GG. I don't think this will completely stop ork players from taking lootas as they need them against other armies, but it might prevent them from spamming lootas if an army has an easy counter to them. (Which is fine by me, i feel people bringing 45 lootas to the table to be pretty lame, especially if its in the 'ard boyz tournament so theres still 180 orks in front of them.)