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So from what I have come to understand, the "thing to do" in 4th for an eldar player was to take 3 falcons w/ harlequin squads. This was the best way to use your three heavy support choices.

However in 5th edition I'm hearing people abandon their falcons in disgust, casting them aside and speaking of them as if they were foul stinking refuse. The fireprism, formerly neglected, has been chosen in its place.

My question is.. what changes have occurred in 5th that have made these players betray their once beloved falcons and shelve them and curse them in rage? Was it the new rules on skimmers moving fast? Or the new defensive weaponry rules? If thats what it was... I cant for the life of my understand why the formerly inferior fireprism is now better than the ex-champ falcon.

Defensive Weapons Rule Change single handedly crippled the Falcon.

You now pay points for a weapon you'll only ever fire if you slow down.

What ryzouken said, plus the loss of the old Glance's only SMF made the falcon less durable. Harlies are far less good now, although still tasty, because the rending nerf cut their rends by about a third. Now, the best thing to haul in a falcon is the Fire dragon, but fire dragons can get a waveserpent for far cheaper.

Boosting the Fire Prism is the new blast rules that it more likely to hit something.

Don't forget that a waveserpent is more durable than a non-holofield-falcon against many popular weapons, and holofields make falcons even MORE expensive.

What everyone else had said. Falcons lost a lot of firepower, while a fire prism can still move 12” and fire to full effect.

Also the rise of the ork horde makes the large blast template much better than whatever the falcon can fire.

The Falcon was never taken for it's firepower, but for it's transport capacity.

The Falcon used to be an excellent transport. However, the Wave Serpent has become the champion of Eldar transports in 5th Edition. Reasons for this are:

-Wave Serpents are more durable then regular Falcons and are slightly more survivable against the close ranged Melta weaponry then a Holo-Field Falcon is.

-All Falcon transported units (Harlequins / Fire Dragons) need to come very close to their targets, placing them inside Melta range. Combine this with the fact that Wave Serpents are more survivable in this range and you can start to see a problem.

-Due to the 'Pile In! before combat' rules and the Rending nerf, Harlequins aren't what they used to be. They need to be taken in bigger units now if you want them to have any impact. Falcons only have room for 6, so they are out as a transport for the Harlequins.


I have found these issues to be of more importance then the reduced firepower (although it is annoying).

Whenever I take Falcons now, I use them in the following manner:

Falcon with Bright Lance and Holo-Fields
5x Dire Avengers

The survivability of your, now scoring, unit is better than that of a Wave Serpent when at longer ranges. The Falcon is by no means a fast moving vehicle anymore though. It is more of a: sit still in cover firing 3 S8 AP2 shots a turn, kind of vehicle. Obviously, you still need to move whenever dangerous units come the Falcons way and you will need to move for objectives in the late game. It's a pretty nice unit in this setup, but I only use it if I have spare Heavy Support slots, as a Wave Serpent can do the same job (although with less survivability) for fewer points.

I have a question in this vein, I still see 5th ed lists with a falcon and 5 fire dragons. How is this played? I ask the question because of all the points that have been brought up in this post. if you want to transport your firedragons effectively you will not get to fire the falcons weapons and you bring the falcon dangerously close to the enemy to drop off the FDs. On the other hand if you stand back and shoot, you cant use the FDs effectively. So again I ask, how is this effectively played????

cross wrote:I have a question in this vein, I still see 5th ed lists with a falcon and 5 fire dragons. How is this played? I ask the question because of all the points that have been brought up in this post. if you want to transport your firedragons effectively you will not get to fire the falcons weapons and you bring the falcon dangerously close to the enemy to drop off the FDs. On the other hand if you stand back and shoot, you cant use the FDs effectively. So again I ask, how is this effectively played????

I think because a lot of the time people are still playing the models they have and the lists they're used to rather than playing what's most effective.

I still use my Falcon with an EML and FDs. It does ok, but recently I've been thinking of replacing it with a WS and sitting the Falcon at the back shooting stuff.

That said, I rarely take my FP since 5E. I find the scatter rules in 5E make it harder to hit what I want.

2D6-3 rarely gives my <7, which means it's missing most of the time. Meh.

Well, WS have 2d6-4 scatter, and combined with the 33% chance to get a "hit" is actually pretty good odds to land on target.

Fire Prism hit rates:

HIT = 44,44%
1" scatter = 7,41%
2" scatter = 9,26%
3" scatter = 11,11%
4" scatter = 9,26%
5" scatter = 7,41%
6" scatter = 5,56%
7" scatter = 3,70%
8" scatter = 1,85%

Depending on how big your target is, a Fire Prism will usually have an effect up until a scatter of 3" or so. That means approximately 72% of the Fire Prisms shots will do something, which is higher than it did in 4th Edition (as it was 66,67% back then). Add the rules about partial hits always hitting, instead of on a 4+, and the Fire Prism has, offensively, become a lot better than it was in 4th Edition.

Airmaniac wrote:Fire Prism hit rates:

HIT = 44,44%
1" scatter = 7,41%
2" scatter = 9,26%
3" scatter = 11,11%
4" scatter = 9,26%
5" scatter = 7,41%
6" scatter = 5,56%
7" scatter = 3,70%
8" scatter = 1,85%

Depending on how big your target is, a Fire Prism will usually have an effect up until a scatter of 3" or so. That means approximately 72% of the Fire Prisms shots will do something, which is higher than it did in 4th Edition (as it was 66,67% back then). Add the rules about partial hits always hitting, instead of on a 4+, and the Fire Prism has, offensively, become a lot better than it was in 4th Edition.

And if you are linking 2 prisms, it just got even better

I tend to see a lot of Wrath Lords and War Walkers instead of fire prisms. T8 is pretty hard to put wounds on. Guided scatterlaser warwalkers can cause a TON of wounds.

asugradinwa wrote:I tend to see a lot of Wrath Lords and War Walkers instead of fire prisms. T8 is pretty hard to put wounds on. Guided scatterlaser warwalkers can cause a TON of wounds.

It depends on the build: fire prisms generally go better with Mech Eldar.

Yeah I havn't played against total Mech Eldar in 5th edition yet. Kind of funny when you consider I've played 10+ games against them but they always seem to be jetbike or wraithguard based.

Eh, well I don't have a super-list... I mostly just took units that I like, but I play hybrid mechazilla Basically, rather than fire prisms, I use two wraithlords. Generally though, most mech lists I see like the fire prisms.

The 5th edition vehicle rules nailed Skimmers moving fast and defensive weapons, nerfing the falcon as a gunboat. The change to melta and vehicle penatration rules makes the falcon more vulnerable to meltas at close range (where it will be dropping off troops) than a wave serpent.

A wave serpent carries more troops, is more durable in close, and can fire its weapon more effectively (twin linked) for cheaper than a falcon, ie moving 12" and firing one twin linked weapon, vs a falcon.

A fire prism can also move 12" and still fire it's main gun more effectively than a falcon (due to the new blast rules), and the 60" range means it will most likely avoid most return fire. A holofield is more effective against a lascannon at long range than a melta at close range.

However, a falcon with a holofield can run around the back field with a squad of 5 DA's, making it scoring, and can then make late game objective grabs. This is about the only thing they are good for these days.

Anytime you get close in, the wave serpent's energy field makes it much more suited to the task, and it can carry a better weapon (twin-linked) to support it's ground troops, for cheaper than a falcon.

Alerian wrote:

Airmaniac wrote:Fire Prism hit rates:

HIT = 44,44%
1" scatter = 7,41%
2" scatter = 9,26%
3" scatter = 11,11%
4" scatter = 9,26%
5" scatter = 7,41%
6" scatter = 5,56%
7" scatter = 3,70%
8" scatter = 1,85%

Depending on how big your target is, a Fire Prism will usually have an effect up until a scatter of 3" or so. That means approximately 72% of the Fire Prisms shots will do something, which is higher than it did in 4th Edition (as it was 66,67% back then). Add the rules about partial hits always hitting, instead of on a 4+, and the Fire Prism has, offensively, become a lot better than it was in 4th Edition.

And if you are linking 2 prisms, it just got even better

That seems to me like a very expensive way to twinlink one prism. Couldnt you just have your farseer guide it?

Linking also increases the strength to 10, and drops the AP to 1, making a penetration and damage roll much more likely against AV14.

A big swing on the popularity of the fire prism is also due to the changes in the laste eldar codex, which came out a bit before 5th edition codex. In the old codex, the prism was BS3 and the prism cannon had only one option, a str9 small blast. This meant under the then current 4th edition rules that you could expect your prism to actually hit things 2-3 times during the game. While the falcon with a str6 defensive weapon would be pinging away and madly racking up 2-3 hits every turn.

The "new" eldar codex gave the prism BS4 plus an option on the strength and size of the blast. And the new twin link option added to the flexibility. Then 5th edition went and changed how blast weapons operate so the prism just keeps getting better.

So in large part its the prism changing from a waste of a vehicle that no one would ever dream of taking to a vehicle that adds a lot of flexibilty to an eldar force. As has been previously posted, with the new blast scatter rules the prisms now hit considerably better than most eldar players remember.


The falcon took hits in two ways as has been pointed out. The loss of str6 defensive weapons hurt its gunship role, and the need for larger sized cc units hurt its transport role as well. This left the falcon becoming half of a very expensive scoring unit ... not a very popular role.


Eldar heavy choices have been in flux a great deal since the changes in the current eldar codex and then 5th edition. WLs with starcannons were almost a default choice at one time, then falcons became very popular with a few people loving the war walkers. Now falcons are much weaker, WLs still have their problems so the war walkers and prisms are the rising heavy stars.

I do find it rather interesting that the old heavy choice of WL with starcannon cost 120 points, while a naked prism costs 115. Elites and fast attacks in an eldar force eat up points quickly so often heavy slots have to scrimp a bit. Might also explain why some people like to run 3 war walkers with shuriekn cannons, they also check in at 120 points.


Sliggoth

Sliggoth wrote: Might also explain why some people like to run 3 war walkers with shuriekn cannons, they also check in at 120 points.


Sliggoth

Is that actually effective? I had been playing with the idea but, but the shuriken cannons are relatively so short ranged... and war walkers so delicate...

Falconlance wrote:

Sliggoth wrote: Might also explain why some people like to run 3 war walkers with shuriekn cannons, they also check in at 120 points.


Sliggoth

Is that actually effective? I had been playing with the idea but, but the shuriken cannons are relatively so short ranged... and war walkers so delicate...

The key is to always outflank with your war walkers. It is surprisingly effective(although I still don't have room for them in my mech eldar hahaha)

In 4th Ed, Falcons were nigh unkillable. They could literally just fly around the table, zoom up to your squad, sit there for an entire turn, then the Harlies could pop out, walk, fleet, and charge something.

The changes to Skimmers Moving Fast and the assaulting Skimmers rule, and the fact that assaulter's now hit rear armor in CC, made it so that Holofield Falcons aren't nearly as invulnerable as before.

The nerf to consolidating units from one CC to another while being able to avoid counter attacks (due to higher initiative), basically killed most Eldar assault troops because they can charge in, kill a squad and sit their with their T3 5+ Inv save as they get shot by anything near by.

In 4th, they could limit attacks back, be locked in CC, and/or leapfrog from assault to assault while avoiding shooting.

This did nothing to change Fire Dragons in Falcons, but as it was said, a Meltagun deepstriking/podding next to a Falcon would be lucky to pop a weapon off in 4th Ed, now it stands a great shot of taking the tank out. As such, tying a moderately expensive tank (less than 200 points as was a common config in 4th), to a moderately expensive squad, means you are no where near as secure in those points being untouchable to the enemy until you dictated the terms.

That more than anything I think has sour'ed Eldar players on their once precious Falcons.

And as someone who used to play against a ton of Mech Eldar in 4th, I sit here, laughing.

This thread is very nostalgic... eldar players remembering the good old days.

G

The Falcon is still very good, but you have to think out of the box...

The Falcons is still near unkillable from shooting. I've taken a liking to putting Eldrad and a dire avenger squad inside.

Now the Falcon is a scoring unit, and Eldrad can do things like fortune a guide units.

Works great for Eldar that have a tough time keeping troops alive on objectives.

Pete

Unfortunately, for that points investment, couldn't you take two or even three 5 man DA squads in serpents?

Eldrad (210) + Falcon (160ish) + 5 DA (60) = 430ish

5 DA (60) + Twin Shuricannon Serpent (100) = 160x3 = 480.

That sounds like a much better investment. While it's true the eldar can play denial like nobody's business, at some point they have to kill something, and that's where I always seem to find them lacking. Even with an uber seer council, I always feel like thats the only unit that is doing anything for me, while my troops hide in their transports and the prisms take potshots at stuff.

For example, against bigmac's IG list, it would go like this. This makes no difference if I'm in reserve or not, the second I come on the board, I'm gonna eat lead.

-He shoots his entire army of hell (Chimera's, Vendettas, Hydra's, Heavy Weapons, etc) at me on my turn. I lose a serpent and get stunned on a bunch of other stuff. On my turn, I turbo boost with the council, and shoot with a couple prisms, hopefully killing something.
- On his next turn, he volleys back with everything, downing another vehicle probably and stunning everything else. I multicharge a couple chimeras with my council, and potshot a few other things with Prisms.
- On his next turn, he volleys back with everything. I'm running out of tanks/infantry and I've only killed a couple of his Chimeras so far, and it's only turn 3-4.

Seriously, this looks like I'm gonna get shut down on turn 4-5, and possibly tabled on 5-6. How do you cope with that? And if I took a falcon, I'd only have it left, so I could contest/score one objective at the end of the game to all the rest of his. If it's KP, then the falcon preserved me 2KP, but he got all the rest.

Seriously, what do you do?

I think that issue has something to do with the fact that the newer codices are stronger by considerable measure. Though I am getting off topic.

I don't really mind the defensive weapon bit, but the loss of Skimmers Moving Fast destroyed the majority of what value the falcon had.

They still have a place, but with the ability to spam so much anti tank weaponry, it's generally thought not always, better to go for cheaper transports.

EasyE wrote:I think that issue has something to do with the fact that the newer codices are stronger by considerable measure. Though I am getting off topic.

I don't really mind the defensive weapon bit, but the loss of Skimmers Moving Fast destroyed the majority of what value the falcon had.

They still have a place, but with the ability to spam so much anti tank weaponry, it's generally thought not always, better to go for cheaper transports.

I'm sorry I have to disagree.

It's not that the new Codex's are much stronger, it's the fact that they nerfed an overpowered unit type in 5th Ed (Skimmers).

Falcons went from something you'd be extremely lucky to kill in a 6 turn game to something you can kill if you dedicate the right resources.

How come every arguement for the falcon seems to revolve around spending another 300 or so points buying Dire Avengers and farseers into it to make a capturing unit, when for the same cost you could buy a number of units that working together could not only capture objectives better but could also do actual damage to the enemy.

combo wrote:How come every arguement for the falcon seems to revolve around spending another 300 or so points buying Dire Avengers and farseers into it to make a capturing unit, when for the same cost you could buy a number of units that working together could not only capture objectives better but could also do actual damage to the enemy.

Because I'd say that the vast majority of 40k players are at the strategic-skill level where they notice much more how one unit performs, rather than how that one unit fits into a larger battleplan and army. It's why bladestorm is so popular.