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Thanks, this is probably one of the best primers I have found.

I keep hearing a lot in various forums how Vulcan lists are doing extremely well. I see references to drop pods, I see references to Land radiers but never with any lists.

Interestingly enough he is absent from your lists (that seem like they would be good with him). I would like to hear your take on him and know your opinion of a Vulcan list.

egomine wrote:Thanks, this is probably one of the best primers I have found.

I keep hearing a lot in various forums how Vulcan lists are doing extremely well. I see references to drop pods, I see references to Land radiers but never with any lists.

Interestingly enough he is absent from your lists (that seem like they would be good with him). I would like to hear your take on him and know your opinion of a Vulcan list.

Hey thanks for the compliment, I appreciate it.

Vulkan is a character I can understand why people would argue for. Of all the characters, he certainly makes the most sense in terms of cost and benefit. If I were to suggest any special, he would be it.

That said, I still don't believe in taking him. I have two reasons for that;

1. He's a combat monster and is meant to see combat (Both for cost and stats). I have no urge to get into combats where I 'need' a Vulkan to win (Because this means I'm in the wrong farking combat!). IG, Tau do not call for a Vulkan in combat. Tacs can do just fine. In addition, against enemies that I do not want to be in combat with, I want my Tactics to kick in so I can fall back, rapid fire and focus fire with the rest of the army. Vulkan is obviously not made for this roll and removes this option.

2. He almost costs 200 points and allows TH/SS Terms rerolls. The difference between Vulkan and my usual HQ (Libby) is 90 points...that's almost another Dread!. I don't run TH/SS Terms in 1850 and below, as I believe the cost of a Raider + TH/SS Terms are too high in such point values. Throw in Vulkan and we're talking about 800 or so points to make something really good in combat...really really good in combat. Not me.

3. His twin-link Melta-Flamer is very good. Good enough, that I can understand the argument for this guy. However, if you do the math this ability isn't as over-powering as you initially think (Still quite strong). A re-roll melta has an 88% chance to hit. Very good. A non re-roll Melta has a 67% chance to hit. Pretty damn good anyways. Regardless, I always bring two meltas to bear on a target when I want it dead; this would not change with an 88% to hit. So, it doesn't really give me 'that' much.

So is Vulkan worth that extra 21% for 190 points (I didn't math hammer the flamer/Heavy Flamer, as that is so dependent on Toughness Value)? Well perhaps if you don't have your eye on other HQs, Vulkan could be taken. However I do. I much rather have a utility Libby gating around with Sternguard/Tacs and helping stop the occasional Lash more than a 21% increase on my Melta shot.


Again however, I can understand the argument for him. In 2k + games, he would go in my army along with a Libby. I don't normally play 2k games though.


Ryan

I humbly disagree with the notion that Vulkan doesn't belong in lists under 2000. I have used him to an extreme degree of efficiency and for the most part, along the line you just mentioned.

To summarize my build philosophy, I will utter a brief statement which will no doubt call down the hell and thunder of many a marine player and that is that... as you intimated...

MARINES SHOULD NEVER SEEK TO MELEE .... (except when they are the monsters IG, TAU, Dreads on squishy)

Quite frankly, despite the vanguard, assault marines, honorguard, Marnius Calgar, Darnath Lysander,Shrike, Kahn and even the Vulkan-Powered God-hammers (TH/SS) ... marines cannot compete. Melee is initiative plain and simple. Add the math up and speed kicks stout's ass nearly all the time. There are a few notable freakish mentions such as the C'tan,Wraith Lords, and Carnifexes, but even then.... rending on high speed, many-attack units makes their defensive toughness absolutely useless.

The only path left to space marines is found in gunfire... a path that Vulkan He'stan or Pedro Kantor make exceedingly powerful and easy. Suffice to say, those Ironclads you mentioned dumped in pods, combined with a rather generous 2" disembark rule, and twin-linked melta make for bad news on turn one. Follow that up with Vulkan's Heavy Flamer, a sergeant combi-flamer, and regular flamer coming down from a pod on exposed bikes, troops, etc means a very roasted mid-game. I will not kid you, I have completely incinerated a 30 man ork mob with just those flamers and the supporting bolter fire from the non-torch wielding members of the squad. Better yet, combat squad and leave a MM with 4 wounds in the middle of their DZ while you slash and burn. Wanna take it up a notch? instead of immobile predators back 3 Vindicators at 115-120 pts (you may want dozer blades) and supplement with at least 3 fast attack wings of combined melta and flamer. My favorite combo in an 1850pt.er is a sisters squad as an ally in an immolator with that magic 12" mobile TL-heavy flamer and a squad of 5 inside with 3 TL-melta guns at BS4 and those delightful little faith points. On the side I enjoy taking the Vulkan Special Land Speeder Package ( 2 w/ Hvy-Flamer, MM) and a 3 bike Attack bike squad with multi-meltas which just guns down transports, skimmers, Land raiders,....pretty much everything... and really... just isn't that hard to arrange cover for on a table when everything is going on. To cap it off, push a tactical squad forward in a rhino with a Powerfist, m-gun, combi-m-gun, and mm. I know you said you don't like P-fist, but hey if he's out in the open here he's probably about to be assaulted and you're going to want to deal some hurt... OR you're desperately trying to blast holes in something that also might require the less gentle attentions of a P-fist.

Back to Pedro... it's simple- turn Sternguard into quick response, mobile DV squads. Stick 7 in a Rhino with 2 having laz cannons and position to objectives or where the enemy column is likely to travel. Blast Away. By the way, those 3 Vindicators from before? Yeah- they're here too. But wait , you know what else you have? Orbital freaking bombardment. Likely to miss, but if it hits.... oh does it HIT. This isn't even getting to the other buffs stern gives you... like... oh... everything practically holding objectives in the army. To cap this little genocidal bombshell off take 3 groups of 2 Attack Bikes with Melta = 300 pts for 6 MM that can turbo-boost, menace.. oh well EVERYTHING other than over hoard, and snatch objectives with a dirty smirk in the end turn. But wait there's one last black eye to hand out... you know those pesky tacticaly squads/ troops you have to take? Well..... let's just say combi-melta,melta in pods on turn one on the enemy armor/Heavies ruins most people's day.

I've made the builds and won with them. The last tournament I played in? I took 1st with Salamanders and my brother using my Crimson Fists took 2nd.

Needless to say... when we faced off at the end it was like a "space guard" battle.

On everything else though, I pretty much agree with you completely... I mean really the tech marine and servitors? What the hell.... I guess at least the thunderfire cannon gives you the freebie servo-arms with fun-guns... and In Apocalypse bumping the ruins can make a big difference. Still those are times far and few between....

Vulkan turns most Marine armies into melta firing monsters.

Whats better:

A weapon that can literally vapourise any target, but is only one shot and can miss or a Weapon that can literally vapourise any target and get a re-roll if you miss?

I know which one i'd take.

Also, taking TH/SS Godhammer Terminators in 1500 PTS is totally viable. This unit is incredible. I tested a unit of 5 with Vulkan in a Land Raider Redeemer against all manner of different targets, and you know the only thing they couldn't kill in one phase?

Answer: The Avatar of Khaine and that was because it's got WS 10 and the Terminators needed 5's to hit.

Getting the GHT's (Godhammer Terminators) into combat isn't difficult either - just stick them in a Land Raider and bomb'em up the field. The Land Raider is your friend and is damn near indestructible unless it meets a close range Melta shot.

So would I take Vulkan for his skills in Close Combat? NO.

He gives too many buffs to the armies shooting for him to be considered an assault asset.

Aye, but there's the rub... Melta is watching, melta is waiting, melta KNOWS...

Listen, I've played the LR game and I'll be honest. If you make it to where you're wanting to go you're bringing a boat load of PAIN with you.

BUT...

If that invincible armor gets punked by a lucky LC or even a rocket launcher which makes it unable to move for a turn... your guys are just ...sitting there. Granted, it can be said that even a single turn of 12" movement combined with the 2" deployment makes it worth it (especially since if you're not in range you can just run and at least get closer) , but with transport/mobility being what it is in the current game, there's a good chance they'll just head packing away from your forces until they pool fire and suppress.

Maybe it's just how it's developed at my club, but between being Battle-Cannon country, obliterator-ville, the Demon-Principality, Vindicator-land-the unhappiest place on earth, Fire-prism-place, Broadside avenue, Leman Russ lane, and another dozen or so not so clever names and references... Land Raiders die and not just die, but DIE.

Of course, I have only myself to blame. People caught onto the whole deepstrike melta, drop 3 Demolisher-cannons on what's exposed trick real quick.

But to the point, yes the package is good. It's got a high initiative and just plain silly relic weapon married to godhammers and all have topshelf invulnerable saves. The cost however is either a 3rd to a quarter of your points in a standard game. Me? for less points I'll just take kitted Vindicators--hands down.

p.s. since vulkan is there... if you WERE able to drop-joy-melta on all vehicle popping opposition say.. 2 pods chock full of combi-melta sternguard combat squading-- I guess it would leave you free to wander up and go all HULK-SMASH. it's risky though.. and even more so expensive pointwise... but then again, to the bold go the spoils of war....

.

Nothing On the Master of the Forge, along with his taking Dreadnoughts as Elites and/or Heavy Support.

Unfortunately, I didn't get past the second paragraph, where yo got the points for the Librarian 100% wrong. 100 points does not get you two psychic powers a turn. It gets you one, and the activation of the Force Weapon would be one of them.
You have to upgrade to Epistolary for a whopping 50% of his base points to get two powers per turn.

TheRhino wrote:Unfortunately, I didn't get past the second paragraph, where yo got the points for the Librarian 100% wrong. 100 points does not get you two psychic powers a turn. It gets you one, and the activation of the Force Weapon would be one of them.
You have to upgrade to Epistolary for a whopping 50% of his base points to get two powers per turn.

Nope, your wrong Rhino

Nowhere does he say you can use 2 powers a turn. He says you GET 2 powers and a FW. Which is true.

For 100 points you get 2 Psychic Powers and a Force Weapon

I admit he doesn't mention the Ep-Libby upgrade, but it hardly invalidates the paragraph, let alone the rest of the text.

Good effort Age of Egos

Many thanks Egos for such a well written and comprehensive list. I am currently working on a similar Tactica for a Full SM Bike army (since you said you have little experiance with a bike army). Hope to have it up and running soon.

Also (kind of a newby question), is there a SIMPLE list for AV anywhere? I only ask because I am too lazy ot sift through the crazy-detailed charts for a simple value.

Just thought I'd nitpick here- shrike is 195pts.
He's a captain with LC's and a JP for 40 more pts- for that he gets rending, a squad boost of stealth and infiltrate, and an army boost of fleet. I never thought of using him together with some TDA guys- but then, having 2+/3++/3+++(cover) and being 18" away is pretty funny. I prefer him in apoc. with korvydae, my chapter master, a chaplain and a libby. Infiltrate to 18" away, jump to 6" away, fleet up close and assault the remainder, with furious charge and hit & run. The libby uses MotA and his force weapon to kill any MC's/HQ's and if the unit somehow survives, you then can run off and charge back again next turn. If you get shot up out of combat, you have +1 to your cover save and move through cover.

Overall not a bad synopsis of the codex, especially from a competitive point of view. I do have to disagree with your analysis of the chaplain. To me his biggest strength is putting him a LRC full of termies (mix of LC/THSS). That is a very hard hitting unit capable of smashing most units. The downside, VERY expensive points wise to do.

I also think you didn't put much thought into the TFC. Yes it is fragile. But people forget that it can be placed in a fortified ruin. I run one in my Vulkan mech list. If my opponent decides to throw missiles and lascannons at it, instead of my tanks, then that leaves my vindis, LRR, and rhino free to do what they want. Is it the most competitive HS choice? No. But when people blow it off as a non-threat, they will soon find out how good it can do.

Not that I think captains are good, but one thing they do have going for them is the ability to unlock the CMD squads, with or without without bikes. Cheap captain and 4xplasma guns is nothing to sneeze at. Would I take that to a highly competitive environment. No. But they can and do well in Marine shooty lists along with a libby in the second HQ slot.

I think you got the basics about the Marine codex and overall a good guide to codex especially for the more competitive minded people.

I thought this was a pretty comprehensive list and it definitely through some more options for me, though I would agree with the MoTF with the Dreadnought options. Perhaps an addendum?

Great article!


P.S. Vindicators are best used in twos. Maybe even in threes.

I thought it was a great article... 1 thing though,
Where is the Master of the Forge?
you included scout bikes w/ no explanation, but you just left him out. He is so lonely