Author |
Message |
 |
|
 |
Advert
|
Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
- No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
- Times and dates in your local timezone.
- Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
- Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
- Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now. |
|
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/12 02:54:54
Subject: IG VS BA 1750: I cant beat our best FLGS player...help me do it !
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
Our best players has been fielding a sweet BA army and has been doing awsome with it. Its an army hes perfected in style and play. I know it not all about army composition but tactical ability and practice/experiance really make an army powerful. However ive dusted off my IG and am getting these guys ready for a few local tournies. I want my army to be fun yet competitive and not only be able to take on this player but i want an all around list able to deal with others.
Ive played a few games with this Ig list...not the BA guy though. My list has done very well. I feel im pretty well rounded but i would really like some help.
here is the BA list:
Dante
Corbulo
Troops:
Assault Squad 1
5 marines
power fist
rhino
extra armor
Assault Squad 2
5 marines
power sword
rhino
extra armor
Assault Squad 3
5 marines
power sword
rhino
extra armor
Tactical squad
5 marines
+5 marines
meltagun
lascannon
rhino
storm bolter
extra armor
Furioso Dread
extra armor
death company
heavy flamer
deathcompany
rhino
extra armor
3x baal predator
extra armor
storm bolter
heavy bolters
Here is mine:
CCS 3 grenade launcher
Chimera
extra armor
stubber
heavy bolter
Officer of the fleet
5x vets
3 meltas
autocannon
Chimera
extra armor
stubber
heavy bolter
Hydra Battery
3x hydras
Vanquisher
lascannon
Commander Pask
Demolisher
extra armor
I hold back my squads for a turn or 2 while my autocannons, and hydras shoot at any light vehicals or infantry within range. I have found that running genadier vet squads allowed my opponents to move foward . With the amount of S7 output it really makes my opponent think twice in moving rhinos and transports up to my ranks.
Hydras are the bane to skimmers and turbo bikes. We have a few gamers that use powerful eldar bike armies, ork biker nobs and skimmer heavy sally armies w/meltas and flamers. Im hoping these guys put on a serious hurt in the future. Plus i have the models and i simply think they look awsome.
The Vanq simply sits back and snipes armor 13+ Pask makes the Vank useful, without him i wouldnt bother... i have the tank and love how this tank with pask scares my opponent.
Command squad basially holds the officer of the fleet... hes there to make my opponent reroll flanks,ds and reserves. Nade launchers are cheap and can hurt anyone who gets in closer.
Around turn 3 ill move any squads that havent already out too objectives. Meltas will take out armor such as the bal preds. I have been staying in the chimeras since they provide excellent cover.
Chimeras use extra armor... i know 15 pts is alot however they now make use of tank shock (my opponents most valuable asset with his rhinos) to take objectives. Its alot harder to stop them with pens and glances. Stubbers simply give them more fire power on the move.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/12 21:55:19
Subject: Re:IG VS BA 1750: I cant beat our best FLGS player...help me do it !
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
suggestions ?
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/13 03:02:28
Subject: Re:IG VS BA 1750: I cant beat our best FLGS player...help me do it !
|
 |
Fresh-Faced New User
|
I realy think you should dump the stubbers and extra amor for either another CCS in chimera or a fun unit like Marbo or plasma for CCS.
And im not realy happy about the autocannon vets with meltas. Either the AC will not shoot or the Meltas will not. Maybe drop the AC in 3 vet units and give the other two vets Plasma guns. In 24 inch range the number of S7 dakka will stay the same while added synergy and more gerneral MEQ killing abbility. The 3 Vets with melta should get hull mounted heavy flamers to give you a few template options without loosing much since this chimeras should move anyway for melta range.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/13 04:47:19
Subject: Re:IG VS BA 1750: I cant beat our best FLGS player...help me do it !
|
 |
Regular Dakkanaut
|
Step 1: Remove Pask
Step 2: Remove Flak Battery
Step 3: Regardless of the BS, 5 vet squads in chimera's is way too many points. Create infantry platoons in chimera's instead.
Step 4: Retool your CCS. Grenade launchers vs MEQ is a complete and utter joke. Also, what point is it to take a 30 point model in an army that cannot outflank?
With all your chimera's you should be creating an Infantry platoon with 4 Squads and a PC command. Give the PC a missile launcher, 3 las cannons and a missile launcher in the others. Set up so that you have some cover and just shoot down his transports, or better yet, shoot down dante since he has to be out in the open with his jump pack and all.
Look into the Banewolf for MEQ squishy goodness, and I have been toying with the idea and have yet to get into the gameplay, but a squadron of scout sentinels with auto cannons outflanking your enemy and popping some of the long range firepower
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/13 05:00:55
Subject: Re:IG VS BA 1750: I cant beat our best FLGS player...help me do it !
|
 |
Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes
NY
|
Ah good ole jawaballs.
His BA list has very little in the way of anti-tank. Pop his rhino's and his army will fall apart to shooting. Demolishers, executioners, and standard russ's will destroy him. The hydra's are good for popping rhino's and whatnot, but I think you might be better served with more tanks. An executioner or two would really ruin his day.
Definitely drop one or two of the vet squads for more tanks IMO. Vets are better than infantry platoons. Unless your playing with an infantry spam army there is no reason to take infantry platoons ever.
If your tooling to beat BA grenade launchers and stubbers probably arent worth it. For CCS i feel guns like plasma and melta that make good use of their BS4 are a better option.
If you go to the battle report forums there are a few people playtesting a lot of good IG lists against much harder lists than this. I would go and check a few of them out to see whats really working for people in games and not just in theory.
|
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/05/13 05:04:49
Where is your saviour now?
"War is an act of force, and there are no limitations to the application of that force" - Clausewitz |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/13 05:06:48
Subject: Re:IG VS BA 1750: I cant beat our best FLGS player...help me do it !
|
 |
Homicidal Veteran Blood Angel Assault Marine
|
Try playing this against him:
Company Command Squad: 3x Meltagun, Astropath, Officer of the Fleet
Chimera: Multilaser, Heavy Flamer
195
9x Psyker Battle Squad
Chimera: Multilaser, Heavy Flamer
155
10x Veterans: 3x Meltagun
Chimera: Multilaser, Heavy Flamer
155
10x Veterans: 3x Meltagun
100
10x Veterans: 3x Meltagun
100
Vendetta: 3x TL Lascannon
130
Vendetta: 3x TL Lascannon
130
Vendetta: 3x TL Lascannon
130
Leman Russ Executioner: Sponson Plasma Cannons
230
Leman Russ Demolisher: Sponson Plasma Cannons
205
Leman Russ Vanquisher: Hull Lascannon, Commander Pask
220
TOTAL: 1750
MODELS (infantry/tanks): 55 (46/9)
KILLPOINTS: 14
You should be able to eat right through his armor since it is mostly AV11, Pask and the Vendettas can hunt down the Baals after you stall his onrushing Rhinos (you grossly outrange the Baals with the units that are going to kill them too, so you should be sitting back out of his range as much as possible). I would outflank with 2 of the Vendettas to try and get side shots onto the Baals. Your main anti-dude weapons are the Demolisher and Executioner, and they deny FNP on the DC and whatever unit Corbulo joins. Anything scary that falls out of a tank should get shot and then hit with the PBS with a WR before it takes its morale check so it will run and stay away from you for a little longer. If you don't like the PBS idea then you can drop it, though idk what to take in its place. He has no reliable way to deal with any of your AV14 stuff and short of scoring Rending hits from the Baals, he can hardly touch AV12. There should be no way that the Furioso can get close enough to a tank to kill it before it get evaporated by a torrent of melta fire.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/13 17:36:39
Subject: Re:IG VS BA 1750: I cant beat our best FLGS player...help me do it !
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
thanks for the suggestions guys.
Caffran9 i dont have the vendettas presently however i do have the chims. I would prefer to use those. Any suggestions on how to go with a chim list instead of the vends.
I have to admit i really like how the auto cannon seems to work in the army... its a cheap way of getting a torrent of s7 shots for the first few rounds, i then basically ignore them once i move out.
the hydras work extremly well against flyers so im inclined to keep them.
I will def look at revamping my command squad... most likely plasmas.
I still want a list thats an all arounder..even though i want a strong list vs BA
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/13 19:07:30
Subject: Re:IG VS BA 1750: I cant beat our best FLGS player...help me do it !
|
 |
Rough Rider with Boomstick
|
I have to admit i really like how the auto cannon seems to work in the army... its a cheap way of getting a torrent of s7 shots for the first few rounds, i then basically ignore them once i move out.
If your sold on the AC then I agree you should reduce the number of them and make your Vets role specific.
2 AC/ Plas vets and 3 Melta Vets ( or prefferably 2 AC/ PS, 2 Melta Vet, and a second CCS with all Melta )
That allows you to use your AC's all game long. Move forward on turn one and you should be in good position to use them as fire support all game long. With Plasmas in your first CCS you now have a sick ammount of S7 shots but now you can deal finish off the MEQ when they get out of thier rhino easily.
Oveall solid list, and I agree with Caffran that Vets > Platoons in almost all but very special circumstances.
|
Big Troy, The Samurai Gunslinger of South Philly
Dystopian Wars fleets: KoB, EotBS, Prussian, FSA
Firestorm Armada Fleets: Sorellian
Current 5th ed WL record
Salamander Marines 22-3(Local) GT Circuit 2-0-1
Mech Vet Guard  54-8-4 (local) 5-1 Ard Boyz
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/13 19:34:40
Subject: Re:IG VS BA 1750: I cant beat our best FLGS player...help me do it !
|
 |
Regular Dakkanaut
|
bigtmac68 wrote:I have to admit i really like how the auto cannon seems to work in the army... its a cheap way of getting a torrent of s7 shots for the first few rounds, i then basically ignore them once i move out.
If your sold on the AC then I agree you should reduce the number of them and make your Vets role specific.
2 AC/ Plas vets and 3 Melta Vets ( or prefferably 2 AC/ PS, 2 Melta Vet, and a second CCS with all Melta )
That allows you to use your AC's all game long. Move forward on turn one and you should be in good position to use them as fire support all game long. With Plasmas in your first CCS you now have a sick ammount of S7 shots but now you can deal finish off the MEQ when they get out of thier rhino easily.
Oveall solid list, and I agree with Caffran that Vets > Platoons in almost all but very special circumstances.
I am going to have to disagree with you on that one. For every use of the vets with 3x SW, you can get 2 squads for same price. BS4 I am willing to admit is a big jump in terms of accuracy, but when you look at in terms of actual manpower, would you rather have 4 shots at bs3 or 2 shots at bs4?
If you are big about the autocannons, take a look at a squadron of scout sentinels with autocannons. 120 points for 3 of them, with 6 shots at the side armor of nearly anything you come into contact with.
I dont understand your love of the hydra battery, but that is more because my FLGS has very few skimmer/bike list.
Don't give up on infantry squads, you might find that fielding 100 guardsmen with 10 heavy weapons is more helpful to you than 60 vets with the same and a higher BS
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/13 20:30:21
Subject: Re:IG VS BA 1750: I cant beat our best FLGS player...help me do it !
|
 |
Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes
NY
|
moosifer wrote:bigtmac68 wrote:I have to admit i really like how the auto cannon seems to work in the army... its a cheap way of getting a torrent of s7 shots for the first few rounds, i then basically ignore them once i move out.
If your sold on the AC then I agree you should reduce the number of them and make your Vets role specific.
2 AC/ Plas vets and 3 Melta Vets ( or prefferably 2 AC/ PS, 2 Melta Vet, and a second CCS with all Melta )
That allows you to use your AC's all game long. Move forward on turn one and you should be in good position to use them as fire support all game long. With Plasmas in your first CCS you now have a sick ammount of S7 shots but now you can deal finish off the MEQ when they get out of thier rhino easily.
Oveall solid list, and I agree with Caffran that Vets > Platoons in almost all but very special circumstances.
I am going to have to disagree with you on that one. For every use of the vets with 3x SW, you can get 2 squads for same price. BS4 I am willing to admit is a big jump in terms of accuracy, but when you look at in terms of actual manpower, would you rather have 4 shots at bs3 or 2 shots at bs4?
If you are big about the autocannons, take a look at a squadron of scout sentinels with autocannons. 120 points for 3 of them, with 6 shots at the side armor of nearly anything you come into contact with.
I dont understand your love of the hydra battery, but that is more because my FLGS has very few skimmer/bike list.
Don't give up on infantry squads, you might find that fielding 100 guardsmen with 10 heavy weapons is more helpful to you than 60 vets with the same and a higher BS
I have a feeling there is nothing 100 basic guardsmen could do, except maybe tarpit something, that 60 vets couldnt. BS4 is a huge difference when you need things to hit reliably.
|
Where is your saviour now?
"War is an act of force, and there are no limitations to the application of that force" - Clausewitz |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/13 20:35:13
Subject: Re:IG VS BA 1750: I cant beat our best FLGS player...help me do it !
|
 |
Regular Dakkanaut
|
Khornatedemon wrote:moosifer wrote:bigtmac68 wrote:I have to admit i really like how the auto cannon seems to work in the army... its a cheap way of getting a torrent of s7 shots for the first few rounds, i then basically ignore them once i move out.
If your sold on the AC then I agree you should reduce the number of them and make your Vets role specific.
2 AC/ Plas vets and 3 Melta Vets ( or prefferably 2 AC/ PS, 2 Melta Vet, and a second CCS with all Melta )
That allows you to use your AC's all game long. Move forward on turn one and you should be in good position to use them as fire support all game long. With Plasmas in your first CCS you now have a sick ammount of S7 shots but now you can deal finish off the MEQ when they get out of thier rhino easily.
Oveall solid list, and I agree with Caffran that Vets > Platoons in almost all but very special circumstances.
I am going to have to disagree with you on that one. For every use of the vets with 3x SW, you can get 2 squads for same price. BS4 I am willing to admit is a big jump in terms of accuracy, but when you look at in terms of actual manpower, would you rather have 4 shots at bs3 or 2 shots at bs4?
If you are big about the autocannons, take a look at a squadron of scout sentinels with autocannons. 120 points for 3 of them, with 6 shots at the side armor of nearly anything you come into contact with.
I dont understand your love of the hydra battery, but that is more because my FLGS has very few skimmer/bike list.
Don't give up on infantry squads, you might find that fielding 100 guardsmen with 10 heavy weapons is more helpful to you than 60 vets with the same and a higher BS
I have a feeling there is nothing 100 basic guardsmen could do, except maybe tarpit something, that 60 vets couldnt. BS4 is a huge difference when you need things to hit reliably.
Well if you are looking to hit more reliably why are you playing guard?
With 100 guard plus 2 PCS, you are looking at 200 rapid fire shots down range if FRFSRF is not issued. Couple that with the ability to "mob" up you possibly have 2 squads of 20 or more guardsman shooting ridiculous amounts of fire down range. Flashlights are the biggest killer of anything non MC in the game, because the amount of firepower that can be brought to bear.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/13 20:47:37
Subject: Re:IG VS BA 1750: I cant beat our best FLGS player...help me do it !
|
 |
Rough Rider with Boomstick
|
would you rather have 4 shots at bs3 or 2 shots at bs4?
With respect, that is missing the point. A Vet squad not only has BS 4, but far more importantly it has 3 special weapon slots.
In a mech army Special Weapons > Heaving Weapons. A mech army is all about mobility, for that I would much rather have 3 BS 4 shots
Also remember that one platoon costs as much as two veteran squads for only 5 more models, all at BS 3.
From a point effeciency standpoint, especially in a mech list, Vets are far superior.
Remember, a mech infantry platoon costs a minimum of 285 pts with no weapons. So you can have either two plain infantry squads and a PCS or two veteran squads with better bs and the same number of weapons as the full platoon. 2 heavey, 6 special!
The only thing a platoon gives you is a few more t3 wounds, which dont matter in a mech list.
So to sum up, your question of would I rather have 2 shots at bs4 or 4 at bs 3 is not accurate as its actually 8 shots ( 6 special 2 heavy) at bs 3 or 8 shots at bs4 ( 6 special 2 heavy) , seems like a pretty clear choice there. In a Mech list
A foot list is a whole different animal, although I am not a fan of pure guyspam.
The only good use of a platoon in a Mech list is to mount the PCS and leave the grunts free to make your Valk-Detta's scoring. Even that is a streatch.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/13 20:55:49
Big Troy, The Samurai Gunslinger of South Philly
Dystopian Wars fleets: KoB, EotBS, Prussian, FSA
Firestorm Armada Fleets: Sorellian
Current 5th ed WL record
Salamander Marines 22-3(Local) GT Circuit 2-0-1
Mech Vet Guard  54-8-4 (local) 5-1 Ard Boyz
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/13 21:02:16
Subject: Re:IG VS BA 1750: I cant beat our best FLGS player...help me do it !
|
 |
Rough Rider with Boomstick
|
Well if you are looking to hit more reliably why are you playing guard?
I think thats the point we are trying to make. Playing guard no longer means you must play the numbers game to make up for your crappy shooting. You can, but you dont have to.
I am willing to bet that you will see very few sucessful guyspam lists, and some very powerful MechVet builds.
If your just playing for fun, sure rack up the guardsmen, more the merrier.
If you are playing to win, Mount up your Vets.
|
Big Troy, The Samurai Gunslinger of South Philly
Dystopian Wars fleets: KoB, EotBS, Prussian, FSA
Firestorm Armada Fleets: Sorellian
Current 5th ed WL record
Salamander Marines 22-3(Local) GT Circuit 2-0-1
Mech Vet Guard  54-8-4 (local) 5-1 Ard Boyz
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/13 21:51:47
Subject: Re:IG VS BA 1750: I cant beat our best FLGS player...help me do it !
|
 |
Regular Dakkanaut
|
bigtmac68 wrote:Well if you are looking to hit more reliably why are you playing guard?
I think thats the point we are trying to make. Playing guard no longer means you must play the numbers game to make up for your crappy shooting. You can, but you dont have to.
I am willing to bet that you will see very few sucessful guyspam lists, and some very powerful MechVet builds.
If your just playing for fun, sure rack up the guardsmen, more the merrier.
If you are playing to win, Mount up your Vets.
Funny you would say something like that. I won with just psykers in a chimera last doubles tournament. You are making it out to be like vets are what you need because you can take up to 3 special weapons. Just think about your 155/170 3x melta/plasma units that are getting shot to crap the second their transport is done. Not only that but you are creating a unit that has a 5+ save when it gets out of the transport and is stuck foot slogging rest of the game.
That is not to say that you should not take a unit or two of vets in your mech list, but you will be able to field an extra 215 points of whatever if you take a PCS with chimera, melta, 4x flamers, and 5 chimera mounted infantry squads with autocannons (685) points vs 5 vets with 3x Plasma and Plasma Pistol mounted (900). With those extra 215 points you could take an extra vet squad in chimera AND a scout sentinel with multi-las.
Your 5 vet list is hamstrung in a DoW scenario, rolling individually for reserves, while my mech list would be able to put out 2 chimera's from the troop choice, the CCS, and then roll on the other 4 chimera's at the same time with 1 reserve roll.
Seeing only the ballistic skill arguement and ignoring other factors is very short sighted and wont get you very far in "winning"
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/13 22:02:38
Subject: Re:IG VS BA 1750: I cant beat our best FLGS player...help me do it !
|
 |
Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes
NY
|
moosifer wrote:bigtmac68 wrote:Well if you are looking to hit more reliably why are you playing guard?
I think thats the point we are trying to make. Playing guard no longer means you must play the numbers game to make up for your crappy shooting. You can, but you dont have to.
I am willing to bet that you will see very few sucessful guyspam lists, and some very powerful MechVet builds.
If your just playing for fun, sure rack up the guardsmen, more the merrier.
If you are playing to win, Mount up your Vets.
Funny you would say something like that. I won with just psykers in a chimera last doubles tournament. You are making it out to be like vets are what you need because you can take up to 3 special weapons. Just think about your 155/170 3x melta/plasma units that are getting shot to crap the second their transport is done. Not only that but you are creating a unit that has a 5+ save when it gets out of the transport and is stuck foot slogging rest of the game.
That is not to say that you should not take a unit or two of vets in your mech list, but you will be able to field an extra 215 points of whatever if you take a PCS with chimera, melta, 4x flamers, and 5 chimera mounted infantry squads with autocannons (685) points vs 5 vets with 3x Plasma and Plasma Pistol mounted (900). With those extra 215 points you could take an extra vet squad in chimera AND a scout sentinel with multi-las.
Your 5 vet list is hamstrung in a DoW scenario, rolling individually for reserves, while my mech list would be able to put out 2 chimera's from the troop choice, the CCS, and then roll on the other 4 chimera's at the same time with 1 reserve roll.
Seeing only the ballistic skill arguement and ignoring other factors is very short sighted and wont get you very far in "winning"
and everything you say about vets applies to your normal guardsmen. Nobody says you NEED vets to win. Just that they are the better choice. Point for point vets will kill more due to their better BS and multiple weapon options. With 5 fire points on a chimera sometimes you dont even need to get out to do your job.
I dont know what DoW version you are playing but everything you dont purposefully leave in reserve comes in on the first turn automatically. So all my vet chimera's come on first turn same as your infantry platoon one's
|
Where is your saviour now?
"War is an act of force, and there are no limitations to the application of that force" - Clausewitz |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/13 22:03:43
Subject: IG VS BA 1750: I cant beat our best FLGS player...help me do it !
|
 |
Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes
NY
|
Oh and btw Ed, i dunno if I would say this BA is best from our grp. There are some much harder armies around here.
|
Where is your saviour now?
"War is an act of force, and there are no limitations to the application of that force" - Clausewitz |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/13 22:06:42
Subject: Re:IG VS BA 1750: I cant beat our best FLGS player...help me do it !
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
Ok guys.... taking some of the suggestions from you guys pls reading some batreps here is a revised list. I have all of the models except the psycic chior (not sure where to get those).
Company Command Squad: 2x Plasmagun, Officer of the Fleet
Chimera: Multilaser, Heavy Flamer
165
Company Command Squad: 4x Meltagun
Chimera: Multilaser, Heavy Flamer
145
9x Psyker Battle Squad
Chimera: Multilaser, Heavy Flamer
155
10x Veterans: 2x Plasmagun, Auto Cannon
Chimera: Multilaser, Heavy Flamer
165
10x Veterans: 2x Plasmagun, Auto Cannon
Chimera: Multilaser, Heavy Flamer
165
10x Veterans: 3x Meltagun
Chimera: Multilaser, Heavy Flamer
155
10x Veterans: 3x Meltagun
Chimera: Multilaser, Heavy Flamer
155
3X Hydra Battery
Leman Russ Demolisher: Sponson Plasma Cannons
205
Leman Russ Vanquisher: Hull Lascannon, Commander Pask
220
TOTAL: 1750
Im sticking with the vets. Simply the bs4 and ability to take multi specials really sell them for me. Plus my army fluff is more of an elite force anyway .
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/13 22:08:44
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/13 22:10:11
Subject: IG VS BA 1750: I cant beat our best FLGS player...help me do it !
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
Khornatedemon wrote:Oh and btw Ed, i dunno if I would say this BA is best from our grp. There are some much harder armies around here.
true however one army i havent beaten and its frustrating
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/13 22:25:14
Subject: Re:IG VS BA 1750: I cant beat our best FLGS player...help me do it !
|
 |
Regular Dakkanaut
|
Can't say I didn't try. You try this list out and consider carefully how much more you could have done with 2 or 3 units in chimera's rather than bs4. Let me know happy hunting
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/13 22:33:10
Subject: Re:IG VS BA 1750: I cant beat our best FLGS player...help me do it !
|
 |
Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes
NY
|
moosifer wrote:Can't say I didn't try. You try this list out and consider carefully how much more you could have done with 2 or 3 units in chimera's rather than bs4. Let me know happy hunting
looking from the opposite end of the table I'd rather face 7 chimera's with a single bs3 melta in it than 5 with 3 bs4 melta's. single bs3 melta's arent scary to me at all. Having to use multiple squads to do what a single vet squad can do just seems silly.
|
Where is your saviour now?
"War is an act of force, and there are no limitations to the application of that force" - Clausewitz |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/14 00:06:09
Subject: Re:IG VS BA 1750: I cant beat our best FLGS player...help me do it !
|
 |
Regular Dakkanaut
|
Khornatedemon wrote:moosifer wrote:Can't say I didn't try. You try this list out and consider carefully how much more you could have done with 2 or 3 units in chimera's rather than bs4. Let me know happy hunting
looking from the opposite end of the table I'd rather face 7 chimera's with a single bs3 melta in it than 5 with 3 bs4 melta's. single bs3 melta's arent scary to me at all. Having to use multiple squads to do what a single vet squad can do just seems silly.
I think you missing the point here. He is trying to get rid of rhino's and baal pred's. The more chimera's you have out there is 3x str6 shots and 3x str5 shots with a 36" range. This is before you even talk about melta shots. Melta is good but as a guard player if you are using melta as your reliable tank/vehicle popping gun then you have already lost
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/14 00:17:30
Subject: Re:IG VS BA 1750: I cant beat our best FLGS player...help me do it !
|
 |
Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes
NY
|
moosifer wrote:Khornatedemon wrote:moosifer wrote:Can't say I didn't try. You try this list out and consider carefully how much more you could have done with 2 or 3 units in chimera's rather than bs4. Let me know happy hunting
looking from the opposite end of the table I'd rather face 7 chimera's with a single bs3 melta in it than 5 with 3 bs4 melta's. single bs3 melta's arent scary to me at all. Having to use multiple squads to do what a single vet squad can do just seems silly.
I think you missing the point here. He is trying to get rid of rhino's and baal pred's. The more chimera's you have out there is 3x str6 shots and 3x str5 shots with a 36" range. This is before you even talk about melta shots. Melta is good but as a guard player if you are using melta as your reliable tank/vehicle popping gun then you have already lost
and those multilasers and heavy bolters wont do squat against the pred's and are unreliable to stop rhino's. If you put all your vehicle popping hope into S5 and S6 guns i think you've already lost as well :p
|
Where is your saviour now?
"War is an act of force, and there are no limitations to the application of that force" - Clausewitz |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/14 00:26:52
Subject: Re:IG VS BA 1750: I cant beat our best FLGS player...help me do it !
|
 |
Fresh-Faced New User
|
zedsdead wrote:Ok guys.... taking some of the suggestions from you guys pls reading some batreps here is a revised list. I have all of the models except the psycic chior (not sure where to get those).
Company Command Squad: 2x Plasmagun, Officer of the Fleet
Chimera: Multilaser, Heavy Flamer
165
Company Command Squad: 4x Meltagun
Chimera: Multilaser, Heavy Flamer
145
9x Psyker Battle Squad
Chimera: Multilaser, Heavy Flamer
155
10x Veterans: 2x Plasmagun, Auto Cannon
Chimera: Multilaser, Heavy Flamer
165
10x Veterans: 2x Plasmagun, Auto Cannon
Chimera: Multilaser, Heavy Flamer
165
10x Veterans: 3x Meltagun
Chimera: Multilaser, Heavy Flamer
155
10x Veterans: 3x Meltagun
Chimera: Multilaser, Heavy Flamer
155
3X Hydra Battery
Leman Russ Demolisher: Sponson Plasma Cannons
205
Leman Russ Vanquisher: Hull Lascannon, Commander Pask
220
TOTAL: 1750
Im sticking with the vets. Simply the bs4 and ability to take multi specials really sell them for me. Plus my army fluff is more of an elite force anyway .
I think this lists looks more effective then your first one, while keeping the character. The only changes I would do are:
Drop one additional psyker, -8 does the same as -9 to leadership. For the 10 points buy another autocannon you seem to like so much^^. Maybe for the plasma CCS.
And stick with hull heavy bolters fot the chimeras that carry units with autocannons.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/14 00:38:05
Subject: Re:IG VS BA 1750: I cant beat our best FLGS player...help me do it !
|
 |
Regular Dakkanaut
|
Jokuhuna wrote:zedsdead wrote:Ok guys.... taking some of the suggestions from you guys pls reading some batreps here is a revised list. I have all of the models except the psycic chior (not sure where to get those).
Company Command Squad: 2x Plasmagun, Officer of the Fleet
Chimera: Multilaser, Heavy Flamer
165
Company Command Squad: 4x Meltagun
Chimera: Multilaser, Heavy Flamer
145
9x Psyker Battle Squad
Chimera: Multilaser, Heavy Flamer
155
10x Veterans: 2x Plasmagun, Auto Cannon
Chimera: Multilaser, Heavy Flamer
165
10x Veterans: 2x Plasmagun, Auto Cannon
Chimera: Multilaser, Heavy Flamer
165
10x Veterans: 3x Meltagun
Chimera: Multilaser, Heavy Flamer
155
10x Veterans: 3x Meltagun
Chimera: Multilaser, Heavy Flamer
155
3X Hydra Battery
Leman Russ Demolisher: Sponson Plasma Cannons
205
Leman Russ Vanquisher: Hull Lascannon, Commander Pask
220
TOTAL: 1750
Im sticking with the vets. Simply the bs4 and ability to take multi specials really sell them for me. Plus my army fluff is more of an elite force anyway .
I think this lists looks more effective then your first one, while keeping the character. The only changes I would do are:
Drop one additional psyker, -8 does the same as -9 to leadership. For the 10 points buy another autocannon you seem to like so much^^. Maybe for the plasma CCS.
And stick with hull heavy bolters fot the chimeras that carry units with autocannons.
His psyker unit is 8 psykers and 1 overseer (60+40 for 4 extra +55 for their ride)
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/14 01:15:59
Subject: Re:IG VS BA 1750: I cant beat our best FLGS player...help me do it !
|
 |
Rough Rider with Boomstick
|
I think you missing the point here. He is trying to get rid of rhino's and baal pred's. The more chimera's you have out there is 3x str6 shots and 3x str5 shots with a 36" range. This is before you even talk about melta shots. Melta is good but as a guard player if you are using melta as your reliable tank/vehicle popping gun then you have already lost
I agree, but that is not what we have been suggesting, as you can see with his modified list he has plenty of ST-7 shots and all either at BS4 or twin linked. Plus good melta for av-14.
The best lists for new IG include some vendettas for excellent long range medium/light armor and MC killing, but he specifically asked for list with no vendettas. He also has a Paskqusher for long range pred sniping. I dont see where his list would be improved by replacing vets with platoons.
Based on my own 12 test games against strong "cheesy" lists as well as Shep's various test the veterans have had exellent sucess in thier roles.
The only thing you get with a platoon vs a pair of vet squads is one extra chimera. Nice sure, but the math and current game experience seems to indicate that the vets are an overall more effective choice.
I dont hate platoons, but lets look at the math with simillar weapon loadout.
two ac plas vet squads will get 16 st 7 shots per turn 6 st 6 and 6 st 5 hitting with (rounding up) 11 3 and 3 for 340 pts
an infantry platoon with ac plas gets 16 st 7 shots 9 st 6 and 9 st 5 hitting with 8 5 and 5 for 405 pts
So here we are paying 65 points for one more hit per turn and a lower average strenghth per hit.
I think platoons have a role, just not in a mech list. You disagree, which is cool and thats what these forums are for so we can be exposed to other points of view we might not have considered.
Perhaps Platoons work better for your play stile, but winning has been pretty reliable with vets so far for me, shep, sourclams and others.
|
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2009/05/14 01:18:48
Big Troy, The Samurai Gunslinger of South Philly
Dystopian Wars fleets: KoB, EotBS, Prussian, FSA
Firestorm Armada Fleets: Sorellian
Current 5th ed WL record
Salamander Marines 22-3(Local) GT Circuit 2-0-1
Mech Vet Guard  54-8-4 (local) 5-1 Ard Boyz
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/14 02:23:22
Subject: IG VS BA 1750: I cant beat our best FLGS player...help me do it !
|
 |
Dominar
|
Vets are far better, offensively. I only consider running minimal (i.e., no wargear) PCS+2 Platoons if I feel I need more scoring.
Vets in chims are vicious. He's going to have a lot of trouble getting you out of your transports before you blow him off the table.
Likewise, vendettas will crush his armor on turns 1&2 and he'll have to divert attention (hard to do with an assault based army) to take them on if they're spread out to take advantage of their long range.
Rhino rush is a tougher matchup for any IG army, but believe me, you have the firepower to blow him off the table.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/14 03:29:53
Subject: Re:IG VS BA 1750: I cant beat our best FLGS player...help me do it !
|
 |
Rough Rider with Boomstick
|
Vets are far better, offensively. I only consider running minimal (i.e., no wargear) PCS+2 Platoons if I feel I need more scoring.
This works really well if your running 3 Valk/Dettas.
Of course Inquisitorial Storm Troopers can give you a cheaper way to make your Valks scoring, but for the price of 2 5 man melta IST squads you can get a full Infantry Platoon and a couple flamers.
|
Big Troy, The Samurai Gunslinger of South Philly
Dystopian Wars fleets: KoB, EotBS, Prussian, FSA
Firestorm Armada Fleets: Sorellian
Current 5th ed WL record
Salamander Marines 22-3(Local) GT Circuit 2-0-1
Mech Vet Guard  54-8-4 (local) 5-1 Ard Boyz
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/14 12:48:22
Subject: Re:IG VS BA 1750: I cant beat our best FLGS player...help me do it !
|
 |
Fresh-Faced New User
|
moosifer wrote:
His psyker unit is 8 psykers and 1 overseer (60+40 for 4 extra +55 for their ride)
Yea sorry you are right. Got confused with the 9.
Maybe it would be worth to drop one of the Hydras for either 4 plasma and Voxes for the Melta vets or 2 plasma and AC for CCS and a second Fleet Officer. I think most of the time 2 Hydras get the same job done as three. But this is no no brainer choice, just something to think about.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/14 14:28:30
Subject: Re:IG VS BA 1750: I cant beat our best FLGS player...help me do it !
|
 |
Homicidal Veteran Blood Angel Assault Marine
|
bigtmac68 wrote:Vets are far better, offensively. I only consider running minimal (i.e., no wargear) PCS+2 Platoons if I feel I need more scoring.
This works really well if your running 3 Valk/Dettas.
Of course Inquisitorial Storm Troopers can give you a cheaper way to make your Valks scoring, but for the price of 2 5 man melta IST squads you can get a full Infantry Platoon and a couple flamers.
Yes, ISTs are cheaper, but 3 is the magic number for BS4 meltas because it takes an average of 3 Melta shots at BS4 to score a wrecked/destroyed result. Since ISTs can only get 2 Meltas, I'm not sure if I like them a whole lot. I'd rather spend the extra 30pts to have vets with 3 Meltas so I'm sure I can kill what I need to kill when it matters. You can get a 3rd melta in the vet unit by taking a vet with a cmobimelta, but then you're spending 90pts on 5 ISTs with 2 meltas and a 1 shot melta, as opposed to 100pts on 10 vets with 3 meltas. The ISTs also cannot receive orders, which can really tip odds in your favor sometimes.
I don't mind ISTs as a 50pt upgrade to make a Valk/Detta scoring, but once you start giving them weapons you start paying points for worse odds of killing things than vets have. Vets might be more points, but against armor especially, the odds of them killing something are higher.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/14 18:02:33
Subject: Re:IG VS BA 1750: I cant beat our best FLGS player...help me do it !
|
 |
Rough Rider with Boomstick
|
Yes, ISTs are cheaper, but 3 is the magic number for BS4 meltas because it takes an average of 3 Melta shots at BS4 to score a wrecked/destroyed result. Since ISTs can only get 2 Meltas, I'm not sure if I like them a whole lot. I'd rather spend the extra 30pts to have vets with 3 Meltas so I'm sure I can kill what I need to kill when it matters. You can get a 3rd melta in the vet unit by taking a vet with a cmobimelta, but then you're spending 90pts on 5 ISTs with 2 meltas and a 1 shot melta, as opposed to 100pts on 10 vets with 3 meltas. The ISTs also cannot receive orders, which can really tip odds in your favor sometimes.
I don't mind ISTs as a 50pt upgrade to make a Valk/Detta scoring, but once you start giving them weapons you start paying points for worse odds of killing things than vets have. Vets might be more points, but against armor especially, the odds of them killing something are higher.
Good point, I have not tried them yet, im strugling with finding a way to add a couple cheap scoring units for those last turn objective grabs as that has been my one key weak point in the Mech Guard list for my Guantlet games so far.
I cant afford vet squads as I dont want to run them without weapons. THe way im looking at it is a melta vet squad is 100 and a melta ST squad is 70. I need two, so that saves me 60 points, guess if I can find a way to just free up 60 more points would help.
Ill be playing with it this weekend, its my last 40k weekend for a couple weeks so im gonna go crazy running against a stronger, LR inclusive Mech Lash list and my own Vulkan Marines. Also might get a chance to take on DA mech which should be fun.
|
Big Troy, The Samurai Gunslinger of South Philly
Dystopian Wars fleets: KoB, EotBS, Prussian, FSA
Firestorm Armada Fleets: Sorellian
Current 5th ed WL record
Salamander Marines 22-3(Local) GT Circuit 2-0-1
Mech Vet Guard  54-8-4 (local) 5-1 Ard Boyz
|
|
 |
 |
|