Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Some IG folks are talking about how Landraiders will by the yin to the yang of mech IG army since you can't kill AV14 by shooting easily outside of melta. Well, its all good that a specialized list can get a advantage in a matchup, but how would one build a take all comers shooty landraider army? Personally I'm having trouble imagining it since godhammer LR don't seem to have good synergy with other units. A transport based army runs into the old problem of ending too close to melta and wasting shots, while LR costs so much that it is hard to fit a shooty army around it....

I suppose one can go for KP denial, but that is just one mission....

You COULD put scoring units in your LRs, sit on objectives, and make them come to you, but that's very risky.

I've had a go myself. Number crunching wise you're always at a disadvantage as you're paying for tropp capacity, unless you're using LR in an assulat role they become very expensive for what they do. And if you've got lots it only takes that one lucky shot to take out a significant proportion of your shootyness.

However, the look on your opponents face when your pull them out of the bag is priceless! Go for it!

As an ork player, there is nothing I fear more than a 3 landraiders. I generally use CC to kill them, and it is hard to crack them with anything I have. A guy I play with regularly runs 3 in a Black Templar list, and they are crazy good. Their smoke downgrades all hits to glancing. He runs Assault termies in a crusader, and they are nasty, mostly because they are counter charge.

That said, I dont think you could run a pure shooty, take all comers list with LRs. The armies you can take them with do not really lend themselves to being able to outshoot every army in the game, especially with a 750point investment in what is, at most 30-35 shots per turn with lower strength weapons, or 6 TL laz cannon shots. I think if you want to run a 3 LR list, you have to balance shooting and assault so you can effectively tailor your tactics to your enemy. You are going to need to charge Tau and certain eldar and ork lists.

All LR varients are tansports first and gunboats second. As such, one should be utilizing them to make either an asasult based list (ie:BT, DW, etc), or a short ranged shooty list (ie:Sallies); they should never be used as a core for a longe range shooty list.

Using a LR as fire support is not cost effective. Look into other options.

I've been looking at this option for a while too, and also come to the conclusion that it just doesn't work. I've been looking at it from the Chaos side, just FYI.

The best I've been able to justify is a single Land Raider that dumps it's nasty cargo for a charge (go assault ramps!), and then becomes a general pain-in-the-ass in the opponent's backfield. Depending on what you're facing, you can use the lascannons to hit side armor (or force your opponent to face his side armor to other guns), tank shock, ram, or just get in the way. The downside is that you'll be up close, so it'll be tougher to avoid meltaguns.

The other tactic is to have a bunch of other cheaper but still hard-to-kill units running around (Termies, Demon Princes, Predators, etc) to keep your opponent either splitting his fire or ignoring most of your targets at once. Again, this only works with like one Land Raider.

extrenm(54) wrote:Using a LR as fire support is not cost effective. Look into other options.

Quoted for truth

Alerian wrote:All LR varients are tansports first and gunboats second. As such, one should be utilizing them to make either an asasult based list (ie:BT, DW, etc), or a short ranged shooty list (ie:Sallies); they should never be used as a core for a longe range shooty list.

Also Quoted for truth

someone using a LR as fire support gets maybe 150 out of its 250+ point cost.
I play space wolves and use it as a transport, a shield, an anvil, and fire support, so for 250 points its a bargain.

as a ranged fire support platform you should be getting 5 shots per turn with the standard land raider- 2 TLLC, 1 TLHB.
take 2 Predators, one with AC+HB sponsons, one with TLLC+LC sponsons. now you have 11 shots per turn for the same cost.

the loss of 1 front armor is made up for with the fact that they cant just get 1 lucky shot and remove the entire threat.

The problem when facing IG with a long ranged land raider is that there is potential to have the melta there in the 1st turn.

Just load some vet squads with melta guns into some Valks, use your scout move & guess what? First turn you move the valks & disembark & you are less then 6" away with three melta guns from a land raider. POOF goes the raider.

asugradinwa wrote:The problem when facing IG with a long ranged land raider is that there is potential to have the melta there in the 1st turn.

Just load some vet squads with melta guns into some Valks, use your scout move & guess what? First turn you move the valks & disembark & you are less then 6" away with three melta guns from a land raider. POOF goes the raider.

thats why anyone with half a brain would deploy the LR so it gets cover. I can use rhinos and preds to make it so there's no room for you to get within 6" of my LR.


Or alternatively leave it in reserve and be able to react to your opponents movement, although with IG being able to mess with reserve rolls its not always an option.

The classic Land Raider is not a legitimate enough offensive threat to warrant that level of behavior. An IG player could put his chimeras in cover or behind Russes and ignore its two lascannon shots for the majority of the game and be perfectly fine while he's eliminating your other units. If you're leaving behind rhinos or moving predators to compensate for Land Raider pivots/LoS then that's a net gain for the IG player. That, and he can still stomp it from range with a variety of weapons.

grey knight hero psychic hood

inquisitor 2x mystic hierophant sanctuary land raider

inquisitor 2x mystic hierophant sanctuary land raider

inquisitor 2x mystic hierophant sanctuary land raider

5x IST 2x melta

5x IST 2x melta

5x IST 2x melta

dreadnought multi-melta

dreadnought multi-melta

dreadnought multi-melta


Depending on the mission and opponent, either the troops or the inquisitors are in the land raiders. Dreads and infantry not embarked can be completely out of LOS. your mobile multi-meltas can outrange chimera mounted meltaguns, so you inch forward with the formation as long as it is safe. Pop vendettas first, along with mobile multi-meltas.

Deep striking speeders get mystic'ed. Demons get sanctuaried. And a great many of the mech IG lists I've seen on dakka, including mine, get outshot from long range. And aren't able to get into short range safely. its not a matter of land raiders having any real volume of firepower it has to do with the fact that, versus mech armies, 6 TL lascannons can easily kill the only things that can hurt armor 14, and 3 mobil multi-mletas that can be completely out of LOS can stop melta rushes in their tracks. Gangs of mystics and 3 seperate sanctuaries radiating off of land raiders can stop non conventional tank kill.


Don't get me wrong. I'm not particularly fond of this list. But I wouldn't be surprised if a land raider fan decided he wanted to take it to a tourney. it has enough tech in it to counter a few different popular armies... and my current IG list does not beat it. I can tweak my list, and I'm going to. Just including a single, survivable long range land raider killer can break this list. But If I choose to do nothing, then I've left a hard counter in the metagame.

Shep wrote: its not a matter of land raiders having any real volume of firepower it has to do with the fact that, versus mech armies, 6 TL lascannons can easily kill the only things that can hurt armor 14, and 3 mobil multi-mletas that can be completely out of LOS can stop melta rushes in their tracks. Gangs of mystics and 3 seperate sanctuaries radiating off of land raiders can stop non conventional tank kill.

You are only considering Imperial and Chaos forces when you say that 6 TL Lascannons will stop the threats to your LRs.

Tau: Hammerheads (with their 4+ cover save outside of 12") and Broadsides in cover will own those LRs...probably on turn one.

Eldar: Mechdar w/TL Brightlances and Prisms will absolutely destroy those LRs...especialy in an Autarch reserves list (and don't forget about FDs in WSs).

Orks: KFFs protecting BW born Orks + the Orks turn 2 assault with PKs..enough said

Dark Eldar: More Dark Lances than you can shake a stick at.

Necrons: Triple Mono Vs Triple LR = a very boring stalemate game.

In short...no, LRs are not a good core for a long range shooty army, as you will have to face Xenos that will just laugh at your 6 lascannons.
Stick to using LRs for what they are designed...the perfect transport vehicle for nasty units.

I am considering when i made that list...

mech IG

mech CSM

mech SM

mech witch hunters

foot lash CSM

foot orks

demons...


Wow, that is actually starting to look a lot like pretty much every respected tourney army.

Like I said, I'm not particularly fond of the list I posted. The context of this thread is that it is a discussion that spilled over from an IG thread talking about long range land raider killers, and why some people feel they may need them.

Tau, eldar, and dark eldar rip that list up. But could you go to a tourney and not face any of those lists? I've done that plenty of times.

Would it be possible to pull an opponent who built this list at a tourney when playing with any of the lists I mentioned?


Like I said before, I'm not trying to sell anyone on that land raider list. I'm just stating that it isn't "IG hate" Its just a list built by a guy who wanted a 31 model army that did pretty well at a tourney. What do i care if a tau player tables him if I'm playing mech IG or sisters?

Shep wrote:I am considering when i made that list...

mech IG

mech CSM

mech SM

mech witch hunters

foot lash CSM

foot orks

demons...


Wow, that is actually starting to look a lot like pretty much every respected tourney army.

Tell that to the UK GT Players where Eldar took both 1st and 4th...
...or to the Las Vegas GT where Dread Bash took first...

I don't mean to offend, but you seem to a have pretty limited view of competitive tourney lists, as well as a lack of current GT standings, especially since you placed the New IG at the top of your list, when they haven't even had the chance to prove themselves yet.

Alerian wrote:

Shep wrote:I am considering when i made that list...

mech IG

mech CSM

mech SM

mech witch hunters

foot lash CSM

foot orks

demons...


Wow, that is actually starting to look a lot like pretty much every respected tourney army.

Tell that to the UK GT Players where Eldar took both 1st and 4th...
...or to the Las Vegas GT where Dread Bash took first...

I don't mean to offend, but you seem to a have pretty limited view of competitive tourney lists, as well as a lack of current GT standings, especially since you placed the New IG at the top of your list, when they haven't even had the chance to prove themselves yet.

Ok, first... that list of armies its tuned against didn't have any numbers next to it. Those weren't ranked. It was just the top of my head of what its good at facing.

And as to my view of competitive lists.

The guy who won Vegas didn't use a dread bash list, he ran FNP ard boys as his cover screen for foot orks. I managed to score 3 massacres and a minor win for 81 battle points with a 9x killa kan 30x loota list. But ended on table 8. As the only other guy I know of at vegas who went to high tables with kans. I'm thinking you might even be crediting my own list for being a "real" competitive list. Which is pretty ironic.

Since nob bikers closed out the north american GTs as the winners in both baltimore and chicago, with demons, orks and CSM being the three best generals at each stop. At least in my metagame.... America, I know what time it is.

UK uses a win/loss system as opposed to a massacre system. Move and shoot armies like tau and eldar can do better by picking away at an army and then swooping in on later turns to block objectives. That skews their metagame. And since i am not planning on competing in tourneys in another country, its irrelevant how eldar does in a completley different metagame.


but ultimately, I'm just trying to show the OP what a land raider based shooty castle army looks like, so that we can discuss how it affects other armies, namely like the IG army that both he and I are tuning right now. I don't own the LR list I posted, and I'm not married to it, or somehow personally attached to it. If your list can beat it congratulations. But many other lists in the metagame can't. I won't concede that point.

wow, interesting list...never seen it before....sure messes up the metagame.

Considering its concept of AV14 wall, I don't think long range game plans would work that well unless you are lance/rail spamming... One might just have to bite the bullet and get close. Something like melta marines, sisters or vet can force the formation to run all game, reducing their output until you corner them.

Otherwise you bring one long range LR killing tool, kills one landraider after per game while it kills a bunch of AV12 that you can't all screen and you lose on KP...

Shep- There is a slight problem with your Deamonhunter list.

In the 5th edition main rulebook FAQ is has a question about when codex says that dedicated transports can only be used by the unit they've been bought for. In the FAQ it says that if the codex states that only the unit it is bought for can use it then that is how it is.

Unfortunately, under the deamonhunter codex it states on page 30 that "Transports are always taken as an upgrade for another unit and may only transport the unit it was bought for."

Because of this only the Inquisitors can be loaded into those land raiders, meaning your troops, unless in rhinos or chimeras will always be exposed.

asugradinwa wrote:Shep- There is a slight problem with your Deamonhunter list.

In the 5th edition main rulebook FAQ is has a question about when codex says that dedicated transports can only be used by the unit they've been bought for. In the FAQ it says that if the codex states that only the unit it is bought for can use it then that is how it is.

Unfortunately, under the deamonhunter codex it states on page 30 that "Transports are always taken as an upgrade for another unit and may only transport the unit it was bought for."

Because of this only the Inquisitors can be loaded into those land raiders, meaning your troops, unless in rhinos or chimeras will always be exposed.

That's the curse of having an ancient codex.

asugradinwa wrote:Unfortunately, under the deamonhunter codex it states on page 30 that "Transports are always taken as an upgrade for another unit and may only transport the unit it was bought for."

The demonhunters codex crits you for 14,532. You die.




Haha, oh well. As an example and a discussion starter, it had a purpose. I think I'm going to agree with SWPIGWANG. I'm not sure if a singular long range land raider killer can do enough to warrant its inclusion. Perhaps the idea is just to pour lascannons into the raiders as you rush in. Hopefully getting some crew shakens (which still only shuts down 1 lascannon) and then laying out some melta into the raiders. It'd be a bloody mission to take on. But you could feasably take out a coupler raiders, and then just survive the remaining lascannon shots and take some objectives.

Slugging it out from range might not be possible without stacking multiple vanquisher/medusa/manticore or with a gang of vendettas.

IG actually have it better with the vendetta and the tricks it can play...

Assuming one gets 1st turn
Turn 0: deploy far forward, scout vendettas with melta in them to 12"
Turn 1:
If they have dreads/whatever screening, shoot it with your entire army and kill them. If they didn't, turn one raider kill right there.

Even if they do screen, a fast transport at 12" would still threaten 1st turn melta-ing unless they deploy the LR far back, giving you all the table you need. You could move 24" back and probably be out of range or just put melta folks in cover near the front and take the table in recon easy. In any case you don't lose anything. (seize inititive aside)

Depending on what they screen with, you can do different things too. If you kill dreads thats the end of the castle. If you kill inquisitor one can drop melta folks behind the LR to trap them after 24" boosting. If you kill troops thats less trouble for your walking warm bodies running to cap the tanks.
-----------------
The demolisher also work well since you can stack them in a list without hurting anything. While it lacks range, it is not like the opposing raider army can stop it from getting into range without a screen (while you can use vendetta trick to force the raiders away from your vulnerable units, and do LOS blocking of your own behind the lemans), which would be destroyed very quickly. If he is using lascannons on your AV14 than you've just pretty much neutralized most of the incoming firepower.