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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/05 13:43:54
Subject: Christian preacher arrested for saying homosexuality is a sin
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Fixture of Dakka
Manchester UK
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I wonder what their slaves made of the concept of 'inalienable rights'?
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Cheesecat wrote:
I almost always agree with Albatross, I can't see why anyone wouldn't.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/05 13:51:42
Subject: Christian preacher arrested for saying homosexuality is a sin
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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Albatross wrote:Chimera_Calvin wrote:Ultimately, if you believe in free speech (I personally do) then the position aught to be very simple.
The preacher should not have been arrested for saying what they thought. If what you believe is unpaletteable to others, that's just their lookout. You have a right to express your views. Equally, they have a right to counter your aguments, tell you what's wrong with your life or just ignore you and walk on.
There should only be two instances in which freedom of speech should be abbrogated. First is where there is a specific intent to incite criminal behaviour (e.g. someone leading a protest march should not have the right to say 'ok guys, time to smash the shop windows!').
The second is where there is a clear intent to abuse or cause emotional distress. I have no problem with Fred Phelps saying that he believes that homosexuality is a sin - I have a great problem when he feels its ok to harass grieving families.
Ah, but how do you determine harassment? They're just standing there speaking their mind, after all. It's all completely subjective - I'm an atheist/secularist and I feel harrassed when I walk past someone who is preaching from a religious text. For the sake of argument. 
If someone feels harassed, they feel harassed and have a right to complain. The policeman on the spot has to make a decision about whether an arrest is warranted. If an arrest is made, when the case gets to court, the magistrates or jury will do their best to decide if a reasonable person should have found the treatment complained of harassing.
The court would also refer to the Public Order Act to guide them in their deliberations. I shall repeat it here as it may be useful.
Public Order Act 1986
1986 CHAPTER 64
/.../
[4A Intentional harassment, alarm or distress]
[(1) A person is guilty of an offence if, with intent to cause a person harassment, alarm or distress, he—
(a) uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour, or
(b) displays any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting,
thereby causing that or another person harassment, alarm or distress.
(2) An offence under this section may be committed in a public or a private place, except that no offence is committed where the words or behaviour are used, or the writing, sign or other visible representation is displayed, by a person inside a dwelling and the person who is harassed, alarmed or distressed is also inside that or another dwelling.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/05 13:53:25
Subject: Christian preacher arrested for saying homosexuality is a sin
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Ultramarine Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control
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@ Frazzled - 'If we list a set of rights, some fools in the future will say that people are entitled only to those rights enumerated and no others' attr. member of the Georgia delegation, continental congress. They were very clever people. Its the ones who came after them I'm worried about. @ Albatross - sorry, didn't mean to be condescending, damned internet didn't give me the best clue what you were getting at.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/05/05 13:54:23
While you sleep, they'll be waiting...
Have you thought about the Axis of Evil pension scheme? |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/05 13:57:46
Subject: Christian preacher arrested for saying homosexuality is a sin
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Albatross wrote:I wonder what their slaves made of the concept of 'inalienable rights'?
This.
Any other stupid questions?
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/05 14:21:12
Subject: Christian preacher arrested for saying homosexuality is a sin
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Fixture of Dakka
Manchester UK
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@Frazzled - Man, it must really be tiring being cranky, paranoid and defensive the whole time - percieving everything as an attack. You'll give yourself an ulcer if you aren't careful.
My point was that I don't believe in 'inalienable rights', you respond by posting some pictures of the founding fathers, I responded by pointing out that those some of those same men owned slaves and would preside over a country that permitted the keeping of other human beings in bondage.
You being you, you take that as some sort of value judgement - for my part, I think it was an excellent illustration of the concept that rights are 'negotiated'.
But whatever man, keep drinking that 'Freedom Liquor'.
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Cheesecat wrote:
I almost always agree with Albatross, I can't see why anyone wouldn't.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/05 14:27:11
Subject: Christian preacher arrested for saying homosexuality is a sin
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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It is a value judgement. Its one of the completely separate things the US is based on. Our rights are not negotiated, or given to us by the government, or a King, but derive from ourselves. Even if the government takes them, even if man takes them, they are still ours, and we will not rest until we get those rights back.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/05 14:30:04
Subject: Christian preacher arrested for saying homosexuality is a sin
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Fixture of Dakka
Manchester UK
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Frazzled wrote:It is a value judgement. Its one of the completely separate things the US is based on. Our rights are not negotiated, or given to us by the government, or a King, but derive from ourselves. Even if the government takes them, even if man takes them, they are still ours, and we will not rest until we get those rights back.
What is the basis of this? I know, but I want to see if you do.
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Cheesecat wrote:
I almost always agree with Albatross, I can't see why anyone wouldn't.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/05 14:36:29
Subject: Christian preacher arrested for saying homosexuality is a sin
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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What is the basis of this? Please clarify.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/05 14:39:31
Subject: Christian preacher arrested for saying homosexuality is a sin
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Maniacal Gibbering Madboy
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Martin Luther King's dream realised is Barack Obama? Wow. The ghettoes rejoice!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/05 14:42:00
Subject: Christian preacher arrested for saying homosexuality is a sin
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Fixture of Dakka
Manchester UK
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Frazzled wrote:What is the basis of this? Please clarify.
Where do you get your concept of liberty from? Did it spring naturally from the populace, spontaneously taking shape, or was it something that was agreed upon by interested parties?
In other words:
A NEGOTIATION
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Cheesecat wrote:
I almost always agree with Albatross, I can't see why anyone wouldn't.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/05 14:47:19
Subject: Christian preacher arrested for saying homosexuality is a sin
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Frazzled wrote:What is the basis of this? Please clarify.
What is the basis of this? Please confuse.
But anywho touching on what sebster responded to me earlier about counterpointing that pro-homosexuality speech should be banned...well that is where we may have a problem. Things in a negative connotation are what is at stake here, especially since we flavor it with a religious spin. Not granted I do not see people expounding the positives of homosexuality on a street corner, but to think that saying something positive about something should go with being banned with saying something negative about something is well...
This is assuming the thing we are talking about has nothing to do with harming others, or has a history of causing problems for people to which a negative connotation may lead to harm. For instance, I cannot go to a street corning and expound the virtues of eugenics, especially in Western Europe where eugenics could be a touching subject, especially since we proved the horrible end result of such thinking. If I go to a street corner and denounce the KKK as a historical lesson in how white supremacy was a bad thing, killed people, ect.- I would probably not be arrested and would probably get a gold star sticker from my teacher.
Expounding the virtues of homosexuality on a street corner may seem odd, but I do not think I would get arrested, given that homosexuals are socially perceived as a group of people that have been persecuted in the past and are still persecuted today for who they are. And don't spin that religion is also what people are persecuted for, as I am well aware of it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/05 14:52:21
Subject: Re:Christian preacher arrested for saying homosexuality is a sin
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Fixture of Dakka
Manchester UK
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WarOne wrote:...granted I do not see people expounding the positives of homosexuality on a street corner...
Depends on the street corner, old chum...
THAT was taken from the visitmanchester website!
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Cheesecat wrote:
I almost always agree with Albatross, I can't see why anyone wouldn't.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/05 14:54:48
Subject: Christian preacher arrested for saying homosexuality is a sin
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Albatross wrote:Frazzled wrote:What is the basis of this? Please clarify.
Where do you get your concept of liberty from? Did it spring naturally from the populace, spontaneously taking shape, or was it something that was agreed upon by interested parties?
In other words:
A NEGOTIATION
Er, it kinda sprang from this.
I guess thats a negotiation.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/05 14:57:23
Subject: Re:Christian preacher arrested for saying homosexuality is a sin
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Albatross wrote:WarOne wrote:...granted I do not see people expounding the positives of homosexuality on a street corner...
Depends on the street corner, old chum...
THAT was taken from the visitmanchester website!
Clearly sir you are misinterpreting the re-enactment of Icarus and his father flying into the sun.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/05 14:58:03
Subject: Re:Christian preacher arrested for saying homosexuality is a sin
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Maniacal Gibbering Madboy
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Albatross wrote:
Depends on the street corner, old chum...
THAT was taken from the visitmanchester website!
I'd run as soon as "Go West" starts playing.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/05 15:02:42
Subject: Christian preacher arrested for saying homosexuality is a sin
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Fixture of Dakka
Manchester UK
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Frazzled wrote:Albatross wrote:Frazzled wrote:What is the basis of this? Please clarify.
Where do you get your concept of liberty from? Did it spring naturally from the populace, spontaneously taking shape, or was it something that was agreed upon by interested parties?
In other words:
A NEGOTIATION
Er, it kinda sprang from this.
I guess thats a negotiation.
Fine. A group of people reach an agreement upon what they want and encourage other people to fight a group of other people for it. That's an acceptable example. What is important is that there are parties who decide which specific rights are desirable, and which aren't. That's why there is a Constitution, a Bill of Rights, and the Magna Carta.
These things don't just materialise out of thin air, fully formed. Automatically Appended Next Post: WarOne wrote:Albatross wrote:WarOne wrote:...granted I do not see people expounding the positives of homosexuality on a street corner...
Depends on the street corner, old chum...
THAT was taken from the visitmanchester website!
Clearly sir you are misinterpreting the re-enactment of Icarus and his father flying into the sun.
His Father is hot.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/05/05 15:03:39
Cheesecat wrote:
I almost always agree with Albatross, I can't see why anyone wouldn't.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/05 15:05:39
Subject: Christian preacher arrested for saying homosexuality is a sin
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Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander
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@ Orky-Knowboy - Then you would be too late. Go west is the traditional Gay victory dance song.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/05/05 15:06:46
How do you promote your Hobby? - Legoburner "I run some crappy wargaming website " |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/05 15:08:34
Subject: Christian preacher arrested for saying homosexuality is a sin
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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We'll just have to agree to disagree Albatross. Here I will share the traditional peace treaty meal with you.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/05 15:13:38
Subject: Christian preacher arrested for saying homosexuality is a sin
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Fixture of Dakka
Manchester UK
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Frazzled wrote:We'll just have to agree to disagree Albatross. Here I will share the traditional peace treaty meal with you.

Fair enough!
Those look awesome.
IMUNNA EATCHOO!
*nom nom nom*
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Cheesecat wrote:
I almost always agree with Albatross, I can't see why anyone wouldn't.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/05 15:36:34
Subject: Re:Christian preacher arrested for saying homosexuality is a sin
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Shrieking Guardian Jetbiker
Los Angeles, CA
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Three cheers for the mexican immigrants who came to the US, became cooks for the miners, and invented texmex. Automatically Appended Next Post: Hey, hold the phone...
I don't see any steaming corn tortillas in there..
And wheres the carnitas?
What are you trying to pull, Frazz?
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/05/05 15:45:45
Eldritch Raiders 2500
Ogre Kingdoms 1500
LotR-Mordor 750 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/05 17:37:24
Subject: Christian preacher arrested for saying homosexuality is a sin
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[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills
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I am munching Cinco de Mayo yummies right now, provided by work. My office is pretty sweet.
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Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
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The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
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Maelstrom's Edge! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/05 17:55:26
Subject: Christian preacher arrested for saying homosexuality is a sin
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Shrieking Guardian Jetbiker
Los Angeles, CA
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Mannahnin wrote:I am munching Cinco de Mayo yummies right now, provided by work. My office is pretty sweet.
NapoleonDynamite.jpg
lucky.
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Eldritch Raiders 2500
Ogre Kingdoms 1500
LotR-Mordor 750 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/05 18:04:58
Subject: Christian preacher arrested for saying homosexuality is a sin
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot
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This whole story is fundamentally wrong.
1) When all ideas are discussed openly, bad ones can be knocked down. Giving bad ones (not that I am taking a side here) a ban gives them power because it also protects them from refutation along with validating them.
2) Once you start drawing a line, they tend to spontaneously acquire the ability to move. Scary stuff.
3) Without an easy/clear/universal definition of what is hateful, you run into more difficulties.
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Q: How many of a specific demographic group are required to carry out a simple task?
A: An arbitrary number. One to carry out the task in question, and the remainder to act in a manner stereotypical of the group.
My Blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/05 18:59:27
Subject: Christian preacher arrested for saying homosexuality is a sin
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Fixture of Dakka
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Orky-Kowboy wrote:Martin Luther King's dream realised is Barack Obama? Wow. The ghettoes rejoice!
People set off fireworks at my apartment complex when it was announced he had won. I then heard loud cheering and literally everyone formed a big cheering crowd outside. I locked my doors and turned my lights off then went to bed >_<
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Worship me. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/05 19:06:58
Subject: Re:Christian preacher arrested for saying homosexuality is a sin
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Hangin' with Gork & Mork
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Well, it was, symbolically, a pretty big deal.
As for Frazz and Albatross, since neither of you seem to really know the answer to the question, you now have assigned reading for the week. Bring eyedrops, because while it is interesting, it is also very dry.
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Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/05 19:09:24
Subject: Christian preacher arrested for saying homosexuality is a sin
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Shrieking Guardian Jetbiker
Los Angeles, CA
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Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:Orky-Kowboy wrote:Martin Luther King's dream realised is Barack Obama? Wow. The ghettoes rejoice!
People set off fireworks at my apartment complex when it was announced he had won. I then heard loud cheering and literally everyone formed a big cheering crowd outside. I locked my doors and turned my lights off then went to bed >_<
It was bittersweet for everybody here. One the one hand, Obama won. On the other hand, Prop 8 passed.
The people who wanted Obama were dissapointed in prop 8 passing, and the people who voted yes on 8 were pissed that Obama won.
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Eldritch Raiders 2500
Ogre Kingdoms 1500
LotR-Mordor 750 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/05 19:41:20
Subject: Christian preacher arrested for saying homosexuality is a sin
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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When Obama won my friends and I loaded up our guns, bought some beer and went out and shot at targets to vent our anger and frustration.
Pretty awesome time even though I went through 100 rnds of .45 ammo and 400 rounds of .22.
Ah well, it was good times.
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--The whole concept of government granted and government regulated 'permits' and the accompanying government mandate for government approved firearms 'training' prior to being blessed by government with the privilege to carry arms in a government approved and regulated manner, flies directly in the face of the fundamental right to keep and bear arms.
“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.”
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/05 20:19:41
Subject: Christian preacher arrested for saying homosexuality is a sin
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Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress
Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.
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Albatross wrote:Orlanth, I understand that when feeling attacked, a natural defence mechanism is to fling mud at the other party - but I think you are making purposeful misrepresentations.
I think we an take that several ways.
Albatross wrote:
No-one questions that millions of people died under oppressive Communist regimes. However you are distorting the facts to present a picture of evil deeds done in the name of atheism. This is not strictly correct.
Hardline communism is atheistic as well as secular. atheism is a large part of theeir dogmas, admittedly it not not the basis of all they think, but it is the basis of much of what they think. When the commies took over the religious got put up against the wall along with the est. some might have died for being noble, or capitalist or other persons who offended communism in a secular way. Priests died largely because they offended communism in another way, in particular the atheistic principle.
I am not however accusing all atheists of being in agreement with this, or even any majority.
However communism is an athiest creed, in addition to secular organisations and roles it replaces, the Party or the Manifesto, or the Leader also directly replaces God. This is what is happening in China now. You have freedom of religion of a sorts except when you beleive in the tenets of the relgion. I cannot speak for other faiths in China, but there is an official Chinese Christian church, which preaches a watered down message the crucifixion the nativity and in part the resurrection. The underground church preaches the full message and the parts the government do not like are parts where sovereignty or authority is espoused. To a Christian, God is Truth and Jesus is Lord. In China only Communism can be Truth, and the Party is the only 'Lord' permitted. The Soviet Union was little different and as for the Khmer Rouge, they just slaughtered everyone with religious leanings out of hand, under the pretext of atheistic progress.
Nazism also holds to similar doctrines in apllication, though as Hitler had his own seperate confused theology he is not in personal a realistic example of an atheistic tyrant.
Albatross wrote:
Now, I won't deny that extreme secularism was a by-product of these particular brands of oppressive communism in practice - but secularism is NOT the same thing as atheism. Would you call France an Atheist State? Perhaps you might, but the difference between France and Stalin's Russia is the way in which secularism in public life is enacted and enforced.
Modern France or Revolutionary France. Paris under the Communards (1871) dabbled with applying atheism, as did some of the early French Revolutionary government, both failed as France is defacto a catholic country by demographics. They lacked the power to make such a change. Making France formally a secular state did work however, and does to this day. Unlike the UK, and Russia, France has no internal religion of note so by severing power ties to the vatican the French government could make itself secular even if the population largely were not. Thus wether the population is Cathoklic or not, orhow catholic those who are are becomes irrelevant.
Albatross wrote:
Atheism isn't a belief system or a cause, secularism is. That's an important distinction to make.
It is when non-existance of God becomes a formally applied doctrine. Non-existance of God the fundamentals of atheism was one of the founding philosophies of Communism and played a major part in social education.
Secularism wants seperation from religion, a secular state does not decree all religion false or as Mao put it 'poisonous'.
Albatross wrote:
'you don't see many atheist terror groups'.
Which I think is fair enough.
Many I can concur with, your original comment denied there were any. Though Communist states are not terror groups either they fit the original criteria.
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n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/05 23:44:50
Subject: Re:Christian preacher arrested for saying homosexuality is a sin
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Fixture of Dakka
Manchester UK
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Orlanth wrote:Hardline communism is atheistic as well as secular. atheism is a large part of theeir dogmas, admittedly it not not the basis of all they think, but it is the basis of much of what they think.
Really? I thought it was all that 'means of production, and that which is produced...' caper.
Again, atheism and secularism are by-products of those particular types of Communism (i.e Stalinism and Maoism). Atheism wasn't an end in and of itself for those dictators.
Orlanth wrote:Secularism wants seperation from religion, a secular state does not decree all religion false or as Mao put it 'poisonous'.
Depends on one's reasons for wanting a secular state, or for being an atheist.
Orlanth wrote:Non-existance of God the fundamentals of atheism
Non-subscription to theistic belief. Seriously, THIS again?
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Cheesecat wrote:
I almost always agree with Albatross, I can't see why anyone wouldn't.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/05/06 01:11:33
Subject: Christian preacher arrested for saying homosexuality is a sin
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Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges
United States
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Frazzled wrote:It is a value judgement. Its one of the completely separate things the US is based on. Our rights are not negotiated, or given to us by the government, or a King, but derive from ourselves. Even if the government takes them, even if man takes them, they are still ours, and we will not rest until we get those rights back.
That's not a value judgment, that's a statement of belief.
In any case, our rights were negotiated, and were given to us, or protected by, by representatives. The fact that they were written in a such a way as to endorse the notion that they could not be taken away does not change the fact that the document protecting them was the result of a certain agreement reached by a group of people. Many beliefs negotiated into a single, agreeable statement of beliefs.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/05/06 01:13:26
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. |
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