Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Orlanth wrote:No I don't, personally I wouldn't outside of a square of plaza which is reserved for that purpose. It is better to have a stall or band playing in a set aside area, look identifiable and then talk to people who approach you. I have been part of that yes.

That's cool. I'll admit that up until now I've seen guys on corners like that and made assumptions, but from now on I can see a dude on a corner like that and think there's a chance he's a wargamer like me. Very cool.

This happens very rarely, but one or two people with a serious hate on for Christians will try this every now and then. Normally it starts with some trick questions about Biblical stories or Christian beliefs, we have seen similar stuff here.

Yeah, those people sound like a-holes. Sorry you have to put up with that. I don't like it when it happens here, and it'd be even more odious in real life.

No, I do beleive there is a lot of PC nonsense harming this nation, but it mostly has secular targets, the church are a fringe of what is being put under the thumb. Look how even ther most wide eyed apologist is starting to realise there is a tendency to assume anyone who critiques immigration policy is a racist, blanket labelling Fundies as homophobes is a fringe benefit.

There's a lot of bad debate, with sacred cows on both sides.

I thoroughly agree with you. Darwin had a low opinion of the churchmen of his time, but never intended his works to stand as a flagbearer for atheism. evolution has been hijacked by atheists, and normally it starts with creationists believe otherwise, deliberately ignoring what most creationists actually believe.
Remember in the Age of Reason the Bible was a much studied book, by learned men. Genesis wasnt taken literally then by most, and it showed there was much room for progressive thinking without treading on the toes of faith, at least in the protestant nations. We learned that lesson through Galileo and Copernicus which was written off as a Catholic problem. Thus folks like Newton could change the way people fundamentaly think about the universe without concern from the church heirarchy of the time.

Yes.

The trouble is that Darwins theories started to be taken as a beatstick even within his lifetime, and some narrow minded clerics got threatened by this and reacted badly to it in debates. Even today who gets chosen to represent the theist point of view in debates, and intelligent and well spoken theist apologist, or a crusty olfd hard liner bishop.

It's a bit much to claim it came entirely from atheists. A re-emphasis on biblical literalism is a much bigger element that some annoying atheists. Atheists would probably like to be as relevant to the evolution of Christian belief as you're asserting, but we're really quite irrelevant.

Best example of this is the 'debate' over the spiritual content of the film Life of Brian. John Cleese and Michael Palin prepared to give a defence of the film as not heretical, the two aged clerics opposing them were so completely off key they decided instead that it was better to say nothing. The film is of course excellent, and while I know some Christians who are uncomfortable with it I believe Cleese's original commentary, it is not intended to cause offense to Christians or Jews.

Not being a Christian my sensitivities aren't going to be the same, but I can't see the Life of Brian as anything other than a really positive film that embraces the message of Jesus. It's a contraversy that pretty much escapes me entirely.

It isnt, those who hate theists put words in our mouths to claim it is supported off and on by crusty bishops who should not be used as definitive sources of theistic belief.

Sure, it sucks when people stereotype the whole of a faith, but evolution is dismissed by about half of the US population, and it's hard to credit that to anything but religion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

WarOne wrote:But anywho touching on what sebster responded to me earlier about counterpointing that pro-homosexuality speech should be banned...well that is where we may have a problem. Things in a negative connotation are what is at stake here, especially since we flavor it with a religious spin. Not granted I do not see people expounding the positives of homosexuality on a street corner, but to think that saying something positive about something should go with being banned with saying something negative about something is well...

There's an issue of public decency. Giving a speach on a street corner open to all... 'Mummy, what's homosexuality?'

Expounding the virtues of homosexuality on a street corner may seem odd, but I do not think I would get arrested, given that homosexuals are socially perceived as a group of people that have been persecuted in the past and are still persecuted today for who they are. And don't spin that religion is also what people are persecuted for, as I am well aware of it.

I don't want anyone to get arrested for preaching on a street corner, either for or against homosexuality. I think a quick chat from an officer, telling the guy the locations of public forums for debate, and then asking him to move along would be much better.

And yeah, I absolutely agree the homosexuals have and still are persecuted for trying to love the people that they love. I just don't believe that standing on a street corner yelling at people trying to do their shopping is anything other than annoying, and possibly inappropriate depending on the audience.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Albatross wrote:

THAT was taken from the visitmanchester website!

I like the new Man City strip.

Standing on a street corner ranting on and on about unicorns or alien conspiracies would not be considered acceptable. If I want to hear about mythology I will look it up in a library or go to a church/synagogue/mosque/etc. If I want to go shopping for a T-shirt I shouldn't have to hear about how god kills kittens because sodom and gommorah loved too many gerbils or whatever gak. Again I say, if I ranted at random strangers who were not interested in listening to me at all, about whatever improvable nonsense my science-fiction filled head comes up with "WOE UNTO YE! THE WYVERNS ARE COMING FOR TOO MUCH CAKE HAS BEEN DESECRATED 4321 YEARS AGO ON THIS DAY! 4321 is THE NUMBER OF THE WYVERN! repent sinners for I have no sex life! Therefore my tiny prick needs you to act accordingly lest the unicorns will not protect us from the wyverns upon doomsday when it imminently arrives!"

I would totally completely get locked up in a looney bin. It might be more fun, rather than calling the cops on ranty preacher guy, or being that arguementative 'I think I look cool for argueing against your annoying ass' guy... just to outpreach him with the most absurd nonsense I can come up with.

Unicorn Robot Laser Horns are all of what stands between us and the wyvern attack. Take care with the number 4321 for it is a wyvern number...

Something I found that snuck under the radar:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/merseyside/8549613.stm

Turns out an atheist protestor got the same charge, but ended up with a suspended 6 month jail term, 100 hours of unpaid work and a £250 fine. Basically a much larger punishment (the preacher got the fine), but no one heard about it because the catholic community certainly didn't get up in arms about it.

The government is at least keeping their silly law consistent, I suppose...

gak. I get offended by zombie worshipping blood drinking miracle healers. Why don't they get the jail sentence like that atheist guy did?

Because the vatican got involved with the airport case.

Guitardian wrote:gak. I get offended by zombie worshipping blood drinking miracle healers. Why don't they get the jail sentence like that guy did?

Woah, lay off the Zombies man, the nut cases deserve your spite, but not the zombies.

Guitardian wrote:gak. I get offended by zombie worshipping blood drinking miracle healers. Why don't they get the jail sentence like that atheist guy did?

Do you have even an ounce of class? It seems that every post you make in this thread is some ill conceived attempt at mockery of the Christian faith. Give it a rest and let those who are serious about and intrigued by this discussion a bit of freedom from witless trolling. I am an ardent supporter of our right to Free Speech, but as they say, "With great power come great responsibility." The freedom to speak and express yourself is a power beyond reckoning, so people should exercise it in a responsible manner. That being said, I am decidedly against further limitation of speech. From what I can read the preacher wasn't doing anything wrong, but Sebster has so aptly noted, we may not have the whole story.

I'm glad you noticed. That was kind of my point. Blabbing about anything to people who don't care to hear it lacks class. You are correct sir.

No, that is incorrect. It lacks class when one makes idiotic statements that are meant to hurt and humiliate someone. That preacher did neither. I do not find pleasure in the fact that the Bible says certain things are wrong, but to disregard moral teaching as outdated or wrong because of my own feelings would be my own pride dictating Truth and not God, and that my friends is sinful. I would daresay that most Christians, as in those that truly have Christ as their focus and not the mindset of a Pharisee, are in anguish over the state of humanity. We weep for those who sin against God (which is all of us), but we do not judge. St. Paul made it abundantly clear that we are not to judge those outside the Faith as they have already been judged by God. Who then is a better judge? We are called upon to spread the Word with humility and love, and sometimes love entails telling others what they don't always like to hear...

JEB_Stuart wrote:No, that is incorrect. It lacks class when one makes idiotic statements that are meant to hurt and humiliate someone.

So a statement which is not idiotic will always be classy?

Oh dogma.

JEB_Stuart wrote:No, that is incorrect. It lacks class when one makes idiotic statements that are meant to hurt and humiliate someone. That preacher did neither. I do not find pleasure in the fact that the Bible says certain things are wrong, but to disregard moral teaching as outdated or wrong because of my own feelings would be my own pride dictating Truth and not God, and that my friends is sinful. I would daresay that most Christians, as in those that truly have Christ as their focus and not the mindset of a Pharisee, are in anguish over the state of humanity. We weep for those who sin against God (which is all of us), but we do not judge. St. Paul made it abundantly clear that we are not to judge those outside the Faith as they have already been judged by God. Who then is a better judge? We are called upon to spread the Word with humility and love, and sometimes love entails telling others what they don't always like to hear...

Then why the double, or I could even say triple standard here? One guy shares his view about how gay is bad, another guy shares his view about how faith lacks common sense... one guy gets a fine and the other goes to jail. People are very clingy when it comes to their 'faith'. I personally don't have any as I never heard the voice of god tell me, I have just figured it out for myself.

A preacher thinks he is being helpful by taking his brainwashed 6 year old to accost college kids in the commons about how they need Jesus or they are going to hell, and tells them off for being fornicators, as if the child had any choice in what her dad teaches her... See I would call that child abuse, just as if I raised my son to think he was actually a robot from planet zoltar sent to save humanity from the wyverns and then unleashed him on the public would get him taken away by DCFS pretty quick.

So one brainwash is better than the other because the book has been around longer? Is that it? (I still haven't got anyone to publish my wyvern book... maybe I should consider hiding half-translated scraps of it somewhere in the desert on scrolls, maybe near the Arizona border, they're sure to be found there. That seems to have worked in the past in the holy land. Of yeah, the vatican not only hands out get out of jail free cards (and get-out-of-hell-free confessions), they also horde half the document found that they think contradict the ones in 'their' version of the bible.

Those forinstances are what I mean by the double standard, along with the vastly different punishments for the two news stories. Maybe god stepped in on the part of his follower. Yeah I'm sure that's got to be it.

So this preacher thinks he is being helpful by unleashing his child upon society with certain beliefs he thinks are RIGHT. Well I believe unleashing sarcasm is helpful, so really I'm just trying to help like any other good gadfly would. And have you seen my picture? and you think I might actually have CLASS?! moreso, you think I CARE?! sheesh.

I'm not trying to defend one thing or another here, but the crimes in each case were different. The atheist left indecent images laying around a public place, deliberately attempting to annoy people, while the preacher was just spouting his stuff in the street (and from the news story which I suspect is not exactly impartial he was not particularly attacking anyone or anything, just explaining what he thinks the bible says).

Then could it not be argued that the preacher was just spouting his stuff in the street, fully aware that it annoys people, but doing it anyways... ergo "deliberately attempting to annoy people" too?

As far as what is considered 'indecent' in a public place, that is kind of a matter of subjective opinion. I rather think an image of a half-naked man being tortured to death kind of indecent. I'd rather an image of fat naked midgets going poo than see a constant reminder of cruelty, stupidity, and public execution. But oh well... too many church steeples around, so I guess I'm stuck with it. It's okay, I'll just not get my way on that one.

As I said, I'm not attempting to defend one thing or the other, as I don't have all the details of each case, but I suspect that the preacher would not have commited as serious a class of crime as the guy with the pictures.

Again, I've not looked into the cases, seen the pictures, heard the things the preacher was saying, etc.

Just a note about double standards. Portland,OR, 2004, pioneer square (big city square right smack in the center of downtown) my friends and I were playing guitar and singing folk music - not for change - just to pass the time on a nice sunny day. We were told by a cop that we had to stop because it might be bothering some people. I didn't notice anyone bothered, many just hanging around on the steps seemed to me to be enjoying it, if not indifferent as they fed the pidgeons or ate their lunch or whatever.

Shortly later a preacher came out with his big booming voice and proceeded to insult gay people, fornicators, sinneers, etc and was far louder than we were being and he got the whole place irritated (Portland is a very progressive town) but he actually got a police escourt hovering nearby to make sure nobody was infringing on his free speech or accosting him for being a public jerk.

Double standard yet?

That is fairly rubbish, but folk music is pretty bad

Welcome to the United States of America. Our sensibilities are those of the Atheists in the motherland.

SilverMK2 wrote:That is fairly rubbish, but folk music is pretty bad

as in... accoustic guitars not rauciously loud amps, and no our music is not hippie songs about vietnam, just playing songs for our own amusement. Never mind. Your taste does not concern me I do it for a living. " " so take your "fairly rubbish" and go stuff it down some heavy metal band's throat for all I care dude. Go listen to your U.K. Dub or something. Not my point. Let me hear something you can play then talk gak.

The POINT WAS... that we were TOLD by a cop, NOT by a crowd, to STOP, but the church guy is PROTECTED BY a cop, FROM the crowd, so he could keep going. Musical taste is not the issue here.

@ Guitardian: sorry to hear about that, and yes, it certainly is a double standard. Creativity in a public place should be commended, not p****d on.

Gha, stupid internet eating my post.

Anyway, here we go on version 3:

@ Guitardian - I was being mildly silly (hence the ). I got what you were saying about the kind of music you would be playing - a group of people just playing some music, not some hippy protest rave.

I actually quite like Folk (and hate DUB), so please, relax - not everyone is out to get you, I was just trying to make light of the situation you found yourself in while agreeing with you that it was a fairly rubbish thing of them to do.

Sorry for misunderstanding I wasn't aware what you were referring to as 'fairly rubbish' I thought you meant the fact that we were playing, rather than, what I now understand as a solidarity in agreeing that that was fairly rubbish of THEM to do. My bad. I don't think anyone is out to get me, I just misinterpreted. Type is bad like that. It's all good. and yeah dub sucks. Even Jesus hates dub though, and that man is full of love. The guy who calls bs on the guy who calls bs on me is my friend. My misunderstanding.

No worries

Guitardian wrote:Just a note about double standards. Portland,OR, 2004, pioneer square (big city square right smack in the center of downtown) my friends and I were playing guitar and singing folk music - not for change - just to pass the time on a nice sunny day. We were told by a cop that we had to stop because it might be bothering some people. I didn't notice anyone bothered, many just hanging around on the steps seemed to me to be enjoying it, if not indifferent as they fed the pidgeons or ate their lunch or whatever.

Shortly later a preacher came out with his big booming voice and proceeded to insult gay people, fornicators, sinneers, etc and was far louder than we were being and he got the whole place irritated (Portland is a very progressive town) but he actually got a police escourt hovering nearby to make sure nobody was infringing on his free speech or accosting him for being a public jerk.

Double standard yet?

Or maybe the double standard is you bitching about free speech in the USA when you aren't even a citizen of the USA, yet sucked off the US taxpayer and seem to nothing but bitch about this country. Dear god just leave already.

I didn't think Portland was part of your lawn Frazzled?

SilverMK2 wrote:I didn't think Portland was part of your lawn Frazzled?

Its part of the back 40. They just don't know it yet.

Guitardian wrote:

JEB_Stuart wrote:No, that is incorrect. It lacks class when one makes idiotic statements that are meant to hurt and humiliate someone. That preacher did neither. I do not find pleasure in the fact that the Bible says certain things are wrong, but to disregard moral teaching as outdated or wrong because of my own feelings would be my own pride dictating Truth and not God, and that my friends is sinful. I would daresay that most Christians, as in those that truly have Christ as their focus and not the mindset of a Pharisee, are in anguish over the state of humanity. We weep for those who sin against God (which is all of us), but we do not judge. St. Paul made it abundantly clear that we are not to judge those outside the Faith as they have already been judged by God. Who then is a better judge? We are called upon to spread the Word with humility and love, and sometimes love entails telling others what they don't always like to hear...

Then why the double, or I could even say triple standard here? ...
...
...
.

If you read the two cases you will find out that the "in your face"-ness of the militant atheist was much greater than the street preacher. The atheist deliberately defaced a prayer room. Every case should be judged upon its merits.

(The preacher has not been arraigned yet, so it may end up with nothing.)

Frazzled wrote:

Guitardian wrote:Just a note about double standards. Portland,OR, 2004, pioneer square (big city square right smack in the center of downtown) my friends and I were playing guitar and singing folk music - not for change - just to pass the time on a nice sunny day. We were told by a cop that we had to stop because it might be bothering some people. I didn't notice anyone bothered, many just hanging around on the steps seemed to me to be enjoying it, if not indifferent as they fed the pidgeons or ate their lunch or whatever.

Shortly later a preacher came out with his big booming voice and proceeded to insult gay people, fornicators, sinneers, etc and was far louder than we were being and he got the whole place irritated (Portland is a very progressive town) but he actually got a police escourt hovering nearby to make sure nobody was infringing on his free speech or accosting him for being a public jerk.

Double standard yet?

Or maybe the double standard is you bitching about free speech in the USA when you aren't even a citizen of the USA, yet sucked off the US taxpayer and seem to nothing but bitch about this country. Dear god just leave already.

UM EXCUSE ME??!! I pay taxes like everyone else, but I don't and never have taken handouts, even when living on streets waiting for my paperwork. Since I can't vote all I can do is be vocal. Get your facts straight sir. I cannot leave as I am fully integrated into United Statesian culture and have all my stuff here which would take a year's salary to 'just move'. Maybe you own a private jet or something I can borrow? Even if I could move my entire life accross the pond I would be considered a foreigner if I went back 'home' because of my accent, my lack of local culture. It's not as if it was my decision I was a little kid when I got brought over here. I do not believe it is your place to tell people where they should go.

We may be polar opposites regarding conservative versus liberal values but that is my right as a United States, tax paying PERMANENT resident. That is a PERMANENT resident, as stated on my green card, which I PAID the federal government for. Get your head out of your butt and get your facts straight old man. As a taxpayer I have every right and protection you do except voting.

You are supposed to be a 'mod', a voice of reason, not flame bait! You should know better. Take your personal jabs and PM them to me if you want. If I recall you started this flame-bait thing in another thread. This is the last time I address one of your volatile posts 'mod': go back to your own country too, you don't seem like a native american to me. If I recall you locked that thread, only to have it reopened by a wiser man than yourself who labeled you a grouchy old man and to not pay attention to your rubbish.

There, I've said it in public, now can we get back to talking about if the law has a double standard when it comes to religious/irreligious public nuissances?

It cost me £8,000 to move the entire contents of a large flat from London to Tokyo, including a bunch of antique furniture and a piano.

In the interest of promoting peace, Guitardian, your tone has been pretty harsh in every post in this thread. There's a difference between disagreeing with someone and not giving them an inkling of credit. I see that you've had some bad experiences with double standards, but that's not everywhere. I'm sure some people have the exact opposite stories as you. Everyone has different experiences. Take a chill pill and let's try to celebrate each other's differences in a way where we can still discuss their merits. Frazz, I'm not going to comment though I'm guessing you were a little flustered and I'm sure you can defend or explain yourself if you think it's worth the energy or not.