A strange double standard. Nazi Germany and The Empire of Japan's WW2 atrocities.

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**George Spiggott**

Monster Rain wrote:Right.

There were a lot of reasons for bombing the place. I'm glad we agree.

Nice try. There are lots of reasons, not all are of equal importance.

**Monster Rain**

It's pointless to discuss something that subjective.

**Frazzled**

I like how it mentions Koreans, Korean slaves. Way to go Japan. They were so lucky the people of Korea and China did not get their proper revenge. There wouldn't be a Japan now.

**Amaya**

Frazzled wrote:I like how it mentions Koreans, Korean slaves. Way to go Japan. They were so lucky the people of Korea and China did not get their proper revenge. There wouldn't be a Japan now.

Something else to consider, it's not like Japan even suffered after the war. Korea got cut in half, went through a war, and now half of their country is under the control of the world's craziest dictator. Germany got cut in half and half of it was controlled by 'communists' for 5 decades. China enjoyed the wonders of Mau's lovely purges. Japan was occupied by the US for 7 years. Big freaking whoop.

**Emperors Faithful**

Amaya wrote:
Frazzled wrote:I like how it mentions Koreans, Korean slaves. Way to go Japan. They were so lucky the people of Korea and China did not get their proper revenge. There wouldn't be a Japan now.

Something else to consider, it's not like Japan even suffered after the war. Korea got cut in half, went through a war, and now half of their country is under the control of the world's craziest dictator. Germany got cut in half and half of it was controlled by 'communists' for 5 decades. China enjoyed the wonders of Mau's lovely purges. Japan was occupied by the US for 7 years. Big freaking whoop.

This is all hardly the fault of Japan. Except maybe the last bit.

**Kilkrazy**

My mother-in-law was a very young child when her home in Tokyo was burnt down along with all the family's belongings.

You can hardly blame my wife for what happened in China before the second world war.

Do you want to blame my daughter? She's half Japanese.

**Emperors Faithful**

You see? This is where we swing from my left-field view that the bombs should never have been dropped to the other extreme where people think Japan should have suffered more.

**Frazzled**

Emperors Faithful wrote:
Amaya wrote:
Frazzled wrote:I like how it mentions Koreans, Korean slaves. Way to go Japan. They were so lucky the people of Korea and China did not get their proper revenge. There wouldn't be a Japan now.

Something else to consider, it's not like Japan even suffered after the war. Korea got cut in half, went through a war, and now half of their country is under the control of the world's craziest dictator. Germany got cut in half and half of it was controlled by 'communists' for 5 decades. China enjoyed the wonders of Mau's lovely purges. Japan was occupied by the US for 7 years. Big freaking whoop.

This is all hardly the fault of Japan. Except maybe the last bit.

Not the fault of Japan? Korea was occupied by Japan and brutalized for absolute decades. If it werent' for Japan there would have been no North and South Korea, no Korean War, and no 60 years of cold war.

China was invaded by Japan as well. How China would have turned out without the war will not be known, but hundreds of thousands died, if not millions. Would Mao had the support he did after the War? Who knows.

Seriously, now you're just obfiscating for a killer regime that rampaged for decades before messing with the wrong country.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kilkrazy wrote:My mother-in-law was a very young child when her home in Tokyo was burnt down along with all the family's belongings.

You can hardly blame my wife for what happened in China before the second world war.

Do you want to blame my daughter? She's half Japanese.

if I were Chinese I would. EDIT: Am I blaming all Japanese who are alive now? No, but if I were of that generation in one of those countries I most certainly would.

**Kilkrazy**

Well you're not Chinese. So what's your opinion.

**Frazzled**

Kilkrazy wrote:Well you're not Chinese. So what's your opinion.

Japan hides its history. Anyone in the government from that time should have been hanged for crimes against humanity. Any soldier/sailor who committed a crime or looked away when a crime was done should have been hanged for crimes against humanity. Damages should have been given to every family that was harmed and reparations made to China, Korea, the Phillipines, Indochina, etc. etc. Other than those directly involved as above, its not their fault.

**Emperors Faithful**

Frazzled wrote:
Emperors Faithful wrote:
Amaya wrote:
Frazzled wrote:I like how it mentions Koreans, Korean slaves. Way to go Japan. They were so lucky the people of Korea and China did not get their proper revenge. There wouldn't be a Japan now.

Something else to consider, it's not like Japan even suffered after the war. Korea got cut in half, went through a war, and now half of their country is under the control of the world's craziest dictator. Germany got cut in half and half of it was controlled by 'communists' for 5 decades. China enjoyed the wonders of Mau's lovely purges. Japan was occupied by the US for 7 years. Big freaking whoop.

This is all hardly the fault of Japan. Except maybe the last bit.

Not the fault of Japan? Korea was occupied by Japan and brutalized for absolute decades. If it werent' for Japan there would have been no North and South Korea, no Korean War, and no 60 years of cold war.

You're blaming Japan for the Cold War? I'm not denying the occupation of Korea, Manchuria and much of the rest of Asia, but to blame them for the Cold War?

China was invaded by Japan as well. How China would have turned out without the war will not be known, but hundreds of thousands died, if not millions. Would Mao had the support he did after the War? Who knows.

You do know the basic political history of China, right?

Kilkrazy wrote:Well you're not Chinese. So what's your opinion.

Good God, don't ask him that!

**Frazzled**

You're blaming Japan for the Cold War? I'm not denying the occupation of Korea, Manchuria and much of the rest of Asia, but to blame them for the Cold War?
*** Cold War between North and South Korea, you betcha.

You do know the basic political history of China, right?
***Yes actually. Do you?

**Emperors Faithful**

Frazzled wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:Well you're not Chinese. So what's your opinion.

Japan hides its history. Anyone in the government from that time should have been hanged for crimes against humanity. Any soldier/sailor who committed a crime or looked away when a crime was done should have been hanged for crimes against humanity. Damages should have been given to every family that was harmed and reparations made to China, Korea, the Phillipines, Indochina, etc. etc.

1) Japan doesn't deny its history.

2) I wonder if you would say the same should be done to every American and Australian (Brits actually behaved themselves) that did the same.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:You're blaming Japan for the Cold War? I'm not denying the occupation of Korea, Manchuria and much of the rest of Asia, but to blame them for the Cold War?
*** Cold War between North and South Korea, you betcha.

The Cold War was between the US and the Soviets, it was a lot bigger than a relatively insignificant Asian country. The war between North and South could have happened with or without Japan's occupation.

You do know the basic political history of China, right?
***Yes actually. Do you?

A damn sight better than to say that Japan was what caused the communist party to rise to power.

**Frazzled**

1) Japan doesn't deny its history.

bs.

2) I wonder if you would say the same should be done to every American and Australian (Brits actually behaved themselves) that did the same.

Last I saw US troops didn't systematically and effectively wipe out the population of Nanking.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Cold War was between the US and the Soviets, it was a lot bigger than a relatively insignificant Asian country. The war between North and South could have happened with or without Japan's occupation.
***There would have been no North and South Korea, just Korea. Again you're forgetting or willfully ignoring the fact Korea was occupied by Japan and only split up because Soviet forces invaded when they obliterated the Japanese occupiers in Manchuria.

**Emperors Faithful**

Frazzled wrote:

1) Japan doesn't deny its history.
bs.

Why? Several articles detailing Japan's apologies and efforts to reconcile with mainland Asian nations have already been presented.

2) I wonder if you would say the same should be done to every American and Australian (Brits actually behaved themselves) that did the same.

Last I saw US troops didn't systematically and effectively wipe out the population of Nanking.

Well, rape was a large problem during the occupation of Japan. But I was reffering more to the widespread execution of Japanese soldiers or the refusal to accept surrender in the first place, something that both Australian and US troops did on a large scale.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:The Cold War was between the US and the Soviets, it was a lot bigger than a relatively insignificant Asian country. The war between North and South could have happened with or without Japan's occupation.
***There would have been no North and South Korea, just Korea. Again you're forgetting or willfully ignoring the fact Korea was occupied by Japan and only split up because Soviet forces invaded when they obliterated the Japanese occupiers in Manchuria.

You misunderstand. The Cold War would have happened (if the war in Europe turned out as it did) regardless of whether Japan occupied Korea. That you don't understand or acknowledge this is extremely bizzare.

**Frazzled**

Mmm so now you're equating some petty crimes with industrial sized rape and murder of an entire continent? Your inability to grasp scale differences is most impressive. If you want vengeful armies coming a knocking, look to see Germany when the Soviets invaded. Then maybe you'll understand the ddiffernece, but probably not.

Additionally, I missed this mass surrender of Japanese troops that were subsequently gunned down by US forces. You must be thinking of the Bataan Death March. Oh wait.. that was the Japanese.

The Cold War would have existed-yes right o score one for you. Would a war have broken out between North Korea and South Korea? No. There would have been no separation, no massed armies driving south. Seriously, quit the apologetics for a killer regime already.

**yeenoghu**

If you are going to point a gun at someone to get your point across be prepared to shoot it. If you are going to wreak havoc across a continent, don't putz around with niceties. ANYONE who is in your way is to be stomped flat mercilessly without remorse or any need for explaination, rationalization, or anything else to pander to history with. If you are going to be a ruthless evil overlord at least don't insult your victims by trying to be nice about it. Comparisons between one disgusting human atrocity and another are like two people sniffing each other's gak and trying to compare why one smells better or worse than the other. Stupid humans.

**Frazzled**

yeenoghu wrote:If you are going to point a gun at someone to get your point across be prepared to shoot it. If you are going to wreak havoc across a continent, don't putz around with niceties. ANYONE who is in your way is to be stomped flat mercilessly without remorse or any need for explaination, rationalization, or anything else to pander to history with. If you are going to be a ruthless evil overlord at least don't insult your victims by trying to be nice about it. Comparisons between one disgusting human atrocity and another are like two people sniffing each other's gak and trying to compare why one smells better or worse than the other. Stupid humans.

So...er what is your point? (I'm betting you're a teenager aren't you. )

EDIT: just so we're clear here I am not saying any Japanese are liable for WWII unless they were directly responsible for actions (or did not stop actions) that occured during the War or prior occupations tied to it. I'd pretty much use the same standard for anyone at any time. So unless you're a WWII Japanese soldier who got his jollies cutting the ears off prisoners in WWII then I don't hold you accountable for anything except well...manga. (unlike Britain which as a nation is responsible for the horror of Haggis).

**Emperors Faithful**

Frazzled wrote:Mmm so now you're equating some petty crimes with industrial sized rape and murder of an entire continent? Your inability to grasp scale differences is most impressive. If you want vengeful armies coming a knocking, look to see Germany when the Soviets invaded. Then maybe you'll understand the ddiffernece, but probably not.

Your idea of what a petty crime should be classed as is laughable. I'm not defending the Rape of Nanking (which wasn't industrial, the Holocuast was terrifyingly unique), but you were the one who said that every Japanese soldier that committed a crime or looked away when they occured should be hanged. I've said that the killing of prisoners of war (and rape too) is a crime, one that should not be dealt out to people based on nationality.

Additionally, I missed this mass surrender of Japanese troops that were subsequently gunned down by US forces. You must be thinking of the Bataan Death March. Oh wait.. that was the Japanese.

Actually, I said both Australian and US troops. And it wasn't a singular mass surrender. But there are widespread instances where Japanese soldiers who were captured alive ended with them being tortured, mutiliated and then killed. In fact it was such a problem that both Australian and US officers tried to curb it, as it made the soldiers still fighting very resistant to surrender.

**Amaya**

EF. The only reason Korea was ever split up was because it was CONTROLLED BY JAPAN and thus a target for the Soviet invasion. Had Korea not been controlled by Japan, the Soviets never would have invaded it. So yes, at the very least, Japan is indirectly responsible for the existance of North Korea and the suffering of its people.

**Emperors Faithful**

Frazzled wrote:The Cold War would have existed-yes right o score one for you. Would a war have broken out between North Korea and South Korea? No. There would have been no separation, no massed armies driving south. Seriously, quit the apologetics for a killer regime already.

I wasn't defending the occupation of Korea at all. I was just saying that they weren't the cause of the Cold War.

And the Soviets would have been involved in Asia regardless. No one can say for certain that Korea wouldn't have been influenced by communism.

**Frazzled**

Emperors Faithful wrote:
Actually, I said both Australian and US troops. And it wasn't a singular mass surrender. But there are widespread instances where Japanese soldiers who were captured alive ended with them being tortured, mutiliated and then killed. In fact it was such a problem that both Australian and US officers tried to curb it, as it made the soldiers still fighting very resistant to surrender.

Do you have any instances of that with US troops? I don't know about Australia-I thought they just shot antiaircraft crocodiles and am hesitant to ask where they fought.
I know the Island Campaigns with US troops very very few Japanese soldiers surrendered. That was kind of the problem. After the horrors of Iwo Jima and Okinawa the projected casualty rates directly led to the calculus to use the Bomb to avoid it. If Japan was wussy like Italy it wouldn't have been an issue.

**Amaya**

There were a handful of cases, the most common issue was mutilation of dead Japanese not the abuse of prisoners.

**Frazzled**

Amaya wrote:There were a handful of cases, the most common issue was mutilation of dead Japanese not the abuse of prisoners.

you sure it wasn't the anti aircraft crocodiles? It would explain a lot.

**Emperors Faithful**

Frazzled wrote:
Emperors Faithful wrote:
Actually, I said both Australian and US troops. And it wasn't a singular mass surrender. But there are widespread instances where Japanese soldiers who were captured alive ended with them being tortured, mutiliated and then killed. In fact it was such a problem that both Australian and US officers tried to curb it, as it made the soldiers still fighting very resistant to surrender.

Do you have any instances of that with US troops? I don't know about Australia-I thought they just shot antiaircraft crocodiles and am hesitant to ask where they fought.
I know the Island Campaigns with US troops very very few Japanese soldiers surrendered. That was kind of the problem. After the horrors of Iwo Jima and Okinawa the projected casualty rates directly led to the calculus to use the Bomb to avoid it. If Japan was wussy like Italy it wouldn't have been an issue.

One part of the problem was that Japanese soldiers were known to fake surrender and then turn on their captors (either with grenades or any other concealed weaponry). But there was also a degree of racism that led to US troops viewing the Japanese as subhuman. Don't get me wrong, this wasn't approved by US commanders or any officers at all (as far as I am aware), but it was certainly a black mark on how the war in the Pacific was conducted by the Allies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_war_crimes_during_World_War_II

**Amaya**

Frazzled wrote:
Amaya wrote:There were a handful of cases, the most common issue was mutilation of dead Japanese not the abuse of prisoners.

you sure it wasn't the anti aircraft crocodiles? It would explain a lot.

No. I just finished reading an accout of a couple battles by a US Marine and he related a few incidents of taking gold teeth from Japanese. The most extreme case was that of a Marine removing a Japanese hand and taking it with him. He eventually got rid of the hand because of the stench, but there were cases of people taking skulls and whatnot.

**Emperors Faithful**

Amaya wrote:There were a handful of cases, the most common issue was mutilation of dead Japanese not the abuse of prisoners.

It was certainly more widespread than that. And mutilation (and the taking of trophies) was also a big problem.

Frazzled wrote:you sure it wasn't the anti aircraft crocodiles? It would explain a lot.

Australians don't like to talk about this. It's very sensitive stuff.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Amaya wrote:The most extreme case was that of a Marine removing a Japanese hand and taking it with him. He eventually got rid of the hand because of the stench, but there were cases of people taking skulls and whatnot.

I'd think taking a skull would be more extreme than just hand, wouldn't you?

**Amaya**

Emperors Faithful wrote:
Amaya wrote:There were a handful of cases, the most common issue was mutilation of dead Japanese not the abuse of prisoners.

It was certainly more widespread than that. And mutilation (and the taking of trophies) was also a big problem.

Frazzled wrote:you sure it wasn't the anti aircraft crocodiles? It would explain a lot.

Australians don't like to talk about this. It's very sensitive stuff.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Amaya wrote:The most extreme case was that of a Marine removing a Japanese hand and taking it with him. He eventually got rid of the hand because of the stench, but there were cases of people taking skulls and whatnot.

I'd think taking a skull would be more extreme than just hand, wouldn't you?

/facepalm

In the book I read the most exreme case was taking a hand. There are other accounts of taking skulls.

**Emperors Faithful**

Amaya wrote:
/facepalm

In the book I read the most exreme case was taking a hand. There are other accounts of taking skulls.

Well yeah. I'd also say those accounts are verifiable.

**Frazzled**

Wait this is war dead? I couldn't care about that especially in comparison to the Bataan Death March et al.

Fate of the missing crewmen
Lt. Col. James H. Doolittle (center) with members of his flight crew and Chinese officials in China after the attack. Lt. Richard Cole, to Doolittle's immediate right, attended the 2008 Raider Reunion. {Those present are (from left to right): Staff Sergeant Fred A. Braemer, Bombardier; Staff Sergeant Paul J. Leonard, Flight Engineer/Gunner; General Ho, director of the Branch Government of Western Chekiang Province; Lieutenant Richard E. Cole, Copilot; Lt.Col. Doolittle, Pilot and mission commander; Henry H. Shen, bank manager; Lieutenant Henry A. Potter, Navigator; Chao Foo Ki, secretary of the Western Chekiang Province Branch Government}Following the Doolittle Raid, most of the B-25 crews that came down in China eventually made it to safety with the help of Chinese civilians and soldiers. The Chinese people who helped them, however, paid dearly for sheltering the Americans. The Japanese military began the Zhejiang-Jiangxi Campaign to intimidate the Chinese from helping downed American airmen. The Japanese killed an estimated 250,000 civilians while searching for Doolittle's men.[25][26] The crews of two aircraft (10 men in total) were unaccounted for: Hallmark's crew (sixth off) and Farrow's crew (last off). On 15 August 1942, the United States learned from the Swiss Consulate General in Shanghai that eight of the missing crew members were prisoners of the Japanese at Police Headquarters in that city (two crewmen had drowned after the crash landing of their aircraft). On 19 October 1942, the Japanese announced that they had tried the eight men and sentenced them to death, but that several of them had received commutation of their sentences to life imprisonment. No names or details were included in the broadcast. Japanese propaganda ridiculed the raid, calling it the "Do-nothing Raid", and boasted that several B-25s had been shot down. In fact, none had been lost to hostile action.

After the war, the complete story of the two missing crews was uncovered in a war crimes trial held in Shanghai. The trial opened in February 1946 to try four Japanese officers for mistreatment of the eight captured crewmen. Two of the missing crewmen, Staff Sgt. William J. Dieter and Sgt. Donald E. Fitzmaurice, had drowned when their B-25 crashed off the coast of China. The other eight, Lieutenants Dean E. Hallmark, Robert J. Meder, Chase Nielsen, William G. Farrow, Robert L. Hite, and George Barr; and Corporals Harold A. Spatz and Jacob DeShazer were captured. In addition to being tortured and starved, these men contracted dysentery and beriberi as a result of the poor conditions under which they were confined. On 28 August 1942, pilot Hallmark, pilot Farrow and gunner Spatz were given a mock trial by the Japanese, although the airmen were never told the charges against them. On 14 October 1942, these three crewmen were advised that they were to be executed the next day. At 16:30 on 15 October 1942, the three were taken by truck to Public Cemetery Number 1 outside of Shanghai and executed by a firing squad.

The other five captured airmen remained in military confinement on a starvation diet, their health rapidly deteriorating. In April 1943, they were moved to Nanking where, on 1 December 1943, Meder died. The remaining four men (Nielsen, Hite, Barr and DeShazer) eventually began receiving slightly better treatment from their captors and were even given a copy of the Bible and a few other books. They survived until they were freed by American troops in August 1945. The four Japanese officers who were tried for war crimes against the eight Doolittle Raiders were all found guilty. Three of them were sentenced to hard labor for five years and the fourth to a nine-year sentence. DeShazer eventually became a missionary and returned to Japan in 1948, where he served in that capacity for over 30 years.

Of the group, only Hite is alive. Barr died of heart failure in 1967, Nielsen in 2007 and Jacob DeShazer died 15 March 2008.

One other Doolittle Raid crewman was lost on the mission. Corporal Leland D. Faktor (flight engineer/gunner with Gray) was killed during his bailout attempt over China, the only man on his crew to be lo