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There is constantly news about searches for Nazi war criminals, some of whom are relatively minor players in the war crimes committed during WW2. Dying guards from Holocaust camps live their lives in fear of being discovered and placed on trial for their crimes, which are often a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Yet members of Japan's Unit 731 are allowed to live free having been granted immunity by the United States in exchanged for their data. To add insult to injury, they deny or mimize their 'excesses' during WW2 particuraly those against Chine and Korea. To this day Japan has yet to formally apologize for their atrocities committed during WW2.

Meanwhile, if a lone, rogue US soldier commits a war crime it is made out to be a major atrocity and used as an excuse to label the US as an evil imperailist regime.

Its almost as if western nations are held to a higher moral standard than the rest of the world.

I'm not attempting to mimiize the crimes committed by western nations (especially the horror carried out by Nazi Germany), but I am disgusted by how we ignore Japanese war crimes and the purges that took place in Soviet Russia, China, and Vietnam.

When I went to Okinawa they made a pretty big deal about Japan's misbehavior there, as well as in Korea. The information is out there if you want to look for it. If anything, you don't hear as much about it as it is completely eclipsed by the Holocaust.

Monster Rain wrote:When I went to Okinawa they made a pretty big deal about Japan's misbehavior there, as well as in Korea. The information is out there if you want to look for it. If anything, you don't hear as much about it as it is completely eclipsed by the Holocaust.

I know about it, but that's only because I bothered to go out and research the war crimes committed by all sides during WW2. Everyone likes to go on and on about the Holocaust, when what Japan did to China was just as bad. I think there is a sick double standard here in that westerners care more about what happened in Europe, because the victims of the atrocities there were white...

http://www.somethingawful.com/d/news/bad-versus-worse.php

http://www.somethingawful.com/d/news/bad-versus-worse-2.php

I spent a lot of time in Japan, and the people seemed extremely ashamed of their war time actions, it was in the news plenty too.

I spent a lot of time in Japan, and the people seemed extremely ashamed of their war time actions, it was in the news plenty too.

Still?

Anyway, here's the thing about Japan vs. Nazi Germany that I think is the reason for the phenomenon you mention.

The Nazis were SYSTEMATIC. The Japanese were merely cruel and xenophobic.

Take the Bataan death march. A very large number of people were killed, something in the neighborhood of 35,000. It was incredibly brutal, horrible treatment, and baseless beatings, torture and executions were constant, starvation, etc. etc. It was a horrible, horrible thing, for which Japan should be endlessly ashamed. But it was also the product of jingoism, indifference, and wartime realities. It's actually pretty hard to deal with 35,000 prisoners, and while you can't just let them go, it's also somewhat hard to care for them all, feed them all, etc. The Japanese responded by not really caring for them for feeding them, plus being extremely cruel.

The same thing is generally true in China. They were extremely cruel, but they mostly just took resources and left people to starve. It was cruel indifference to people that weren't useful to their war effort.

Now, contrast that with the Nazis who actually made an EFRFORT to round up Jews/Gypsies/others and bring them to special camps to be killed and/or tortured. There was a real systematic effort towards cruelty and mass genocide, and it was almost exclusively directed at civillians.

Everyone can somewhat understand the idea of hating enemy soldiers, and treating them poorly. Japan went above and beyond in this respect, but they were essentially acting like many soldiers have felt. "F that guy, he can't have any of my food, and if he steps out of line, I'm going to shoot him."

It's a whole other ballgame when you start systematically rounding people up for genocide. That goes from "terribly misbehaving soldier" to "complete pyschopath."

It's the difference between "the worst of human behavior" and "inhuman behavior."

Amaya wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:When I went to Okinawa they made a pretty big deal about Japan's misbehavior there, as well as in Korea. The information is out there if you want to look for it. If anything, you don't hear as much about it as it is completely eclipsed by the Holocaust.

I know about it, but that's only because I bothered to go out and research the war crimes committed by all sides during WW2. Everyone likes to go on and on about the Holocaust, when what Japan did to China was just as bad. I think there is a sick double standard here in that westerners care more about what happened in Europe, because the victims of the atrocities there were white...

I'm not sure, but it seems just as likely that westerners in general care more about what happened in Europe because it is western, not just because the victims of the atrocities there were white (which isn't even completely accurate). I would think familiarity with western cultures vs. a comparative lack of familiarity with eastern cultures would be an even bigger factor than a hyper-simplified race theory.

The Japanese DID systemically rape Nanking. Have you read some of the things they did? They make the most disturbing horror film/novel make look like a fething joke.

An estimated 7 to 16 million Chinese civilians died during the war. Unit 731 DID systemically torture and experiment on Chinese.

Edit: China and South Korea care a lot about what happened. Japan's refusal to acknowledge their crimes has severely hindered their relations with China.

The Japanese DID systemically rape Nanking. Have you read some of the things they did? They make the most disturbing horror film/novel make look like a fething joke.

Very similar to the Bataan situatiion. It was actually NOT especially systematic. It was just lots of very aggressive, jingoistic, xenophobic soldiers doing very horrible things.

Consider what the went on in Abu Ghraib. Now, I'm not suggesting AT ALL AT ALL AT ALL that it's even CLOSE to what happened in Nanking, Buchenwald, Bataan... But what I am saying is that it's understood that at times soldiers will act out of line, and without orders. That's what happened in Abu Ghraib, and while it's embarassing, it's not systematic or officially sanctioned.

The Japanese were a similar, if much more widespread and horrific form of this.

Yes a lot of Chinese died. They died, in great majority, to starvation. Also, it's not like Mao Zedong, their own Premier, didn't see to far, far worse not long after.

Letting people starve is bad, but carefully tracking them down, rounding them up, and putting them to death is worse.

One is just reckless indifference. The other is a systematic killing, an expenditure of resources for the purpose of killing. It's worse.

How much worse? Whatever. I agree, the Japanese did incredibly horrible things. I just think that what the Nazis did was more shocking, and somewhat unprecedented.

Casual cruelty is commonplace.

Systematic genocide is rare.

But then again, if you're worried about Japan, what about:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide

There's a lot of bad that goes on.

I already knew about that. Another case of non-whites getting killed so no one really cares.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan

Y hallo thar Unit 731, Not organized at all. And you'll love what happened to the leaders of the project.

I already knew about that. Another case of non-whites getting killed so no one really cares.

I guess I should have assumed as much. I mean, if Nancy Pelosi is aware of something, it's safe to assume everyone else on earth is as well.

Amaya wrote:I already knew about that. Another case of non-whites getting killed so no one really cares.

G-baby, is that you?

http://www.mofa.go.jp/POLICY/women/fund/state9308.html

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/02/11/japan.korea.apology/

North Korea doesn't care though. They need the rage to sustain their bourbon distribution system. Glorious Leader needs his booze.

Ahtman wrote:Y hallo thar Unit 731, Not organized at all. And you'll love what happened to the leaders of the project.

I already posted that. lol immunity

One of the members actually toured Japan talking about what they did. I can't see a Nazi doctor ever getting away with that.

Edit: Really? Taking over Korea was a 'tragic accident'?

Also, FWIW, while I do think that race is somewhat at play here, it's not in the way Amaya is suggesting.

If you look at how the Nazis treated American POWs, they were actually much more restrained with them than the Japanese were. Bad things went down, but nothing that compares to the Bataan death march, for example, and killing of POWs was much, much more common back then than it is today.

So in terms of "killing white people" the Japanese actually did a lot more of it, in illegitimate ways.

Where I think race plays a role, is that white people look at Germans (other white people) and they see what they did and they fiind it especially upsetting because it's being done by other white people.

When a Japanese person does it, a white person might think "whatever, Asians are weird, they don't care about killing people." But when another white person does it, it's that much more likely to cause you to imagine yourself do it, and that's what really shocks people, and gets their attention.

I guess people aren't demanding an apology from Japan because of what we did to them with our nuclear weapons. Was there an apology for that, by the way?

In a related question, has the US apologized for Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

Phryxis wrote:Also, FWIW, while I do think that race is somewhat at play here, it's not in the way Amaya is suggesting.

If you look at how the Nazis treated American POWs, they were actually much more restrained with them than the Japanese were. Bad things went down, but nothing that compares to the Bataan death march, for example, and killing of POWs was much, much more common back then than it is today.

So in terms of "killing white people" the Japanese actually did a lot more of it, in illegitimate ways.

Where I think race plays a role, is that white people look at Germans (other white people) and they see what they did and they fiind it especially upsetting because it's being done by other white people.

When a Japanese person does it, a white person might think "whatever, Asians are weird, they don't care about killing people." But when another white person does it, it's that much more likely to cause you to imagine yourself do it, and that's what really shocks people, and gets their attention.

I was suggesting both that people don't care because it was done by non whites and because it was done to non whites.

Tim the Biovore wrote:I guess people aren't demanding an apology from Japan because of what we did to them with our nuclear weapons. Was there an apology for that, by the way?

Some believe that dropping the bombs was better than invading or blockading Japan. America did help Japan rebuild after the war. Would Japan be the power it is today without America's aid in rebuilding?

The key difference is that the Nazis and Japan were both aggressors.

Edit: The debate over the use of the nukes really comes down to whether or not you believe Japan was going to continue fighting. An invasion of Japan would have been incredibly bloody. Who knows how long Japan would have held out during a blockade? The greater crime was the fire bombing of Japan. I think the best thing would be for America to apologize for both actions, even though it is now agreed that the use of WMDs is unacceptable.

Amaya wrote:

Ahtman wrote:Y hallo thar Unit 731, Not organized at all. And you'll love what happened to the leaders of the project.

I already posted that. lol immunity

One of the members actually toured Japan talking about what they did. I can't see a Nazi doctor ever getting away with that.

Edit: Really? Taking over Korea was a 'tragic accident'?

But I added a link! Nazi's that weren't convicted of War Crimes, or ones that wre and released eventually would probably be allowed to go around Germany and talk about the experience.

The fact that the Japan and German are treated differently could be that the history of the countries and their foreign relations are different. Even the reasons for war were different, the participants were generally different, and the end of the wars and post war periods were different. Still, it's probably just white people being racist.


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Emperors Faithful wrote:In a related question, has the US apologized for Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

Apologize for being awesome? I don't think so Tim. If every country apologized every time a bomb was dropped there would need to b a lot more apogizing going around all over. Forget the atomic bombs, if there needs to be an apology, it would be the carpet bombing of Tokyo.

Amaya wrote:
It's nearly universally agreed that dropping the bombs was better than invading or blockading Japan. America did help Japan rebuild after the war. Would Japan be the power it is today without America's aid in rebuilding?

The key difference is that the Nazis and Japan were both aggressors.

I like your definition of 'universally agreed'. Many in Japan certainly don't see it that way. Not that razing Tokyo to the ground with conventional bombs was much better either.

Ahtman wrote:

Amaya wrote:

Ahtman wrote:Y hallo thar Unit 731, Not organized at all. And you'll love what happened to the leaders of the project.

I already posted that. lol immunity

One of the members actually toured Japan talking about what they did. I can't see a Nazi doctor ever getting away with that.

Edit: Really? Taking over Korea was a 'tragic accident'?

But I added a link! Nazi's that weren't convicted of War Crimes, or ones that wre and released eventually would probably be allowed to go around Germany and talk about the experience.

The fact that the Japan and German are treated differently could be that the history of the countries and their foreign relations are different. Even the reasons for war were different, the participants were generally different, and the end of the wars and post war periods were different. Still, it's probably just white people being racist.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Emperors Faithful wrote:In a related question, has the US apologized for Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

Apologize for being awesome? I don't think so Tim. If every country apologized every time a bomb was dropped there would need to b a lot more apogizing going around all over. Forget the atomic bombs, if there needs to be an apology, it would be the carpet bombing of Tokyo.

Not all Nazis committed war crimes. Letting someone from the SS or regular army go free is not the same as allowing a doctor who committed horific experiments escape justice.

I'm saddened to see that the atomic bombs have overshadowed the much greater crime of fire bombing.

Ahtman wrote:Apologize for being awesome? I don't think so Tim. If every country apologized every time a bomb was dropped there would need to b a lot more apogizing going around all over.

You're missing the point. Japan is being asked/demanded to make apologies for their war crimes while the single most horrific attack on a civilian target throughout the whole war (indeed really, the past century) was committed by the US. A crime, and that's really what it is, that the victor is unlikely to ever apologize for. BUT HEY! AT LEAST WE STOPPED THOSE DAMN COMMIE JAPS!

Forget the atomic bombs, if there needs to be an apology, it would be the carpet bombing of Tokyo.

Argh, ninja.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Amaya wrote:
It's nearly universally agreed that dropping the bombs was better than invading or blockading Japan. America did help Japan rebuild after the war. Would Japan be the power it is today without America's aid in rebuilding?

The key difference is that the Nazis and Japan were both aggressors.

I like your definition of 'universally agreed'. Many in Japan certainly don't see it that way. Not that razing Tokyo to the ground with conventional bombs was much better either.

I edited that.

There really wasn't a good outcome to that theatre of the war. Anything other than an unconditional surrender would have been unacceptable. Japan's government needed to go.

Was the bombing of Tokyo done over time, or was the flamestorm similar to Dresden? (Funny how a white town gets more media and sympathy than Tokyo)

It was done over time. Tokyo wasn't the only city hit.

I think there's a bunch of reasons for this. First up, at the end of the war the US in particular shot a lot of footage of the liberation of the camps, particularly Dachau, so we saw directly what the Nazis had done. In comparison there's almost no images in the public conscious of Japanese atrocities in China.

And yeah, the Nazis primarily killed Europeans, that is to say white people. But more than that, when you look at the targets of the Germans, these were largely middle class people, and the survivors and their children have much greater access to the media, and so have a much greater chance to tell their story. Look at the great films on the atrocity, they were directed by Jews, looking to tell their story. Which is great, and has resulted in powerful and important films like Schindler's List and The Pianist. But then consider how many Roam directors there are, and how few films there are on persecution of the Roma as a result. It's the same for Chinese victims of the Japanese.

Another big reason is the one Phryxis mentioned, the Nazis were systematic and organised in their destruction, they industrialised the process. An army freaking out and slaughtering an ethnic minority is nothing new, tragically, but the Nazis were the first ones who might have actually succeeded in wiping a whole culture from the Earth. That's pretty freaking shocking.

So yeah, the Nazis were villified in a way the Japanese weren't. But then, the Nazis have been villified in a way almost no other combatant was. This was in part to them actually being worse than anyone has ever been, and in part to other factors.

Amaya wrote:Its almost as if western nations are held to a higher moral standard than the rest of the world.

Yes they are. Should we hold our troops to no higher a standard than we expect of Mugabe's thugs?


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Monster Rain wrote:When I went to Okinawa they made a pretty big deal about Japan's misbehavior there, as well as in Korea. The information is out there if you want to look for it. If anything, you don't hear as much about it as it is completely eclipsed by the Holocaust.

I've been to the monument in Nanking, going there was actually one of my big reasons for going to China. It's called the Monument to the Victims of the Japanese Imperialists or something similarly awesome, and it's pretty strong evidence that the Chinese really haven't forgotten. But it's in China, so it's not going to get much coverage over here.


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Phryxis wrote:The same thing is generally true in China. They were extremely cruel, but they mostly just took resources and left people to starve. It was cruel indifference to people that weren't useful to their war effort.

They slaughtered prisoners as a matter of course, at one stage during the rape of Nanking they even invited the media to come and watch, and killed bound prisoners in front of them. The slaughter in China was more than just a food shortage, they were utterly monstrous as a matter of course. In Nanking they raped or killed hundreds of thousands.

But I do agree that there is a difference between what the Japanese did and what the Nazis did. Going through Auschwitz I realised very much what you're saying, it was industrialised extermination. They built train tracks to take people to gas chambers. They had purpose built computers to make sure the whole thing was as orderly and efficient as possible.

You can look at the Japanese actions and figure that's what happens when soldiers are beaten regularly as a matter of course throughout their training, then placed in a foreign country without enough resources and with little political will to observe what they're doing. On the other hand, you look at Germany and realise that's what happens when the state decides

The former is horrific, but it happens regularly in the course of war (the Soviets weren't much different, either). What the Germans did is utterly terrifying, and fortunately it is unique in history.

Amaya wrote:
Edit: The debate over the use of the nukes really comes down to whether or not you believe Japan was going to continue fighting. An invasion of Japan would have been incredibly bloody. Who knows how long Japan would have held out during a blockade? The greater crime was the fire bombing of Japan. I think the best thing would be for America to apologize for both actions, even though it is now agreed that the use of WMDs is unacceptable.

It's not the actual use of WMDs (as in that case every test would be a crime), it's the fact that the US specifically targetted dense population centres (in both the carpet bombing and the A-bomb) rather than military targets, which would have been entirely possible given that they had complete air superiority. The massacre of civilians was done with the sole goal of horrifying Japan into abject surrender, rather than neautralizing them as a military threat.