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Melissia wrote:This doesn't really make much logical sense to me-- a bigger, more reinforced weapon should have LESS recoil, rather than more-- but there it is.
I know absolutely nothing about guns and I would initially assume that bigger guns have more recoil. Especially since what experience I do have comes from Hollywood movies where the slow motion shots show a large weapon chugging away kicking back with each shot fired!
Also, limited science knowledge tells me the bigger and faster a projectile is fired, the more recoil a weapon would have. This comes from knowing absolutely nothing about how recoil dampers (or whatever the real term is) work!
Also, creators are artistic types who care less about everything being totally realistic, then us collectors do. We have fundamentally different mindsets!
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PrometheusZero wrote:I know absolutely nothing about guns and I would initially assume that bigger guns have more recoil.
Only if the projectile size and the kinetic energy discharged upon shooting are similarly increased. Otherwise, a bigger gun will just lead to more weight, which actually lowers recoil - because the more weight there is, the more kinetic energy would be required to move it.
A funny thing about boltguns is that they look absolutely ginormous, yet still shoot "only" 19mm projectiles (regardless of who uses them). We've got rifles that shoot bigger slugs in real life, with apparently considerably more power than the low-velocity bolter whose ammunition relies on an internal rocket motor to deliver the punch required to penetrate armour.
PrometheusZero wrote:Also, creators are artistic types who care less about everything being totally realistic, then us collectors do. We have fundamentally different mindsets!
Absolutely. But in the end, I think I'm fine with what they have come up with. It's "realistical" enough to not sound like complete groxshit, when we keep in mind this is still a sci-fi setting.
Lynata wrote:Only if the projectile size and the kinetic energy discharged upon shooting are similarly increased. Otherwise, a bigger gun will just lead to more weight, which actually lowers recoil - because the more weight there is, the more kinetic energy would be required to move it.
Ahh, of course! That does make sense! Although a large mass gun wouldn't recoil as fast but the momentum (now is that one 'mass times velocity' or 'half mass times velocity squared, can never remember) would still be big! I'm thinking of the 'ripping your arm off' thing here. How much force can an arm withstand?
Ugh.
I'm going nowhere with this! I just cant remember/dont know enough!
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PrometheusZero wrote:Although a large mass gun wouldn't recoil as fast but the momentum would still be big! I'm thinking of the 'ripping your arm off' thing here. How much force can an arm withstand?
True about the momentum, though the momentum is, as you say, dependant on the velocity as well. And of course a heavier gun would require more kinetic energy to be moved at all - the weight would basically affect both the user's ability to deal with recoil as well as the projectile's ability to "generate" it in the first place.
A common way of recoil compensation is adding weights to a rifle barrel, by the way!
As far as "ripping off an arm" goes ... I'm not sure this is actually possible. If there was ever a gun that would create as much force, it'd probably just fly away. Unless your arm gets entangled with it. Worst case it could probably take your trigger finger off.
PrometheusZero wrote:I'm going nowhere with this! I just cant remember/dont know enough!
Tis okay, I don't think any of us is a physics professor. The internets have a lot of professional discussions about recoil and what affects it in what way, though - I read up on a lot of them before posting here to make sure my perception doesn't clash with real life physics. It's actually rather interesting stuff ... well, sort of!
The problem with the momentum aspects of the "arm ripping" equation is that the boltgun is, at the outset, "at rest". That is to say, it's not moving, until the round ignites and pushes back against the weapon as it travels down the barrel. In order for it to tear your arm off, this push will have to be enough to overcome the weapon's inertia and then also provide enough push to accelerate the weapon to such speeds that it applies enough force to tear your arm off.
This is an unlikely event for any weapon that is in any way, shape or form considered man-portable.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Perhaps the stock folds inside the weapon. There's enough room for it. The reason for a stock is to help with a solid aiming stance, not just for recoil. SMs wouldn't worry about that, because they are perfect.
We should all bear in mind that 40K isn't science fiction, it's science fantasy. There is no more than a vague pretence at realism in the science. "Rule of Cool" is the important factor.
Likewise the "canon" is not meant to be taken seriously. GW themselves describe it as a mixture of history, half-truths, propaganda, lies and legend. In such an background, it means nothing if sources contradict each other.
Kilkrazy wrote:The reason for a stock is to help with a solid aiming stance, not just for recoil.
Indeed, but it'd probably one of the first things one would put on a gun if there's a problem holding it steady whilst firing.
You raise a good point regarding the seriousness of the setting, though. That's also the impression I've gotten from quite a large number of writers and designers or the prevalence of tongue-in-cheek humour in official material. It's not as "bad" as during the days of Rogue Trader, but just this week I've spotted a "Mung Vase" amidst the list of valuable items in the Necromunda rulebook. For what it's worth, the community seems to completely miss the point in that people look for consistency even in places where none is intended to exist. I did the same, for years. It just seems to be one of those unwritten laws that people who like the style of a given setting will invariably strive to know more about it, and in the course of this journey look for rules to hold on to.
Heh, I'm even still doing so, having merely dismissed the licensed products from my recognition.
Given the loose handling of consistency and the continueing retcons, I've almost reached a point where I must ask myself if there is any "canon" at all to the setting, or if it is not rather so that the current studio material merely serves as an indicator regarding the direction where the franchise and its style is moving. This is something I have not yet cast judgment on for myself, though I have a feeling that I - as a fan who greatly enjoys a uniform continuity - would not like the answer.
For the moment I am merely irritated at certain outsourced products trying to override core facets of the setting that have remained inviolate in studio material for decades. Or rather the acceptance this movement finds amongst members of the community - especially in the face of certain comments and citations from people who have either worked on said products directly, or were involved in similar projects of the franchise.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/08/17 20:20:20
Well I htink stocks are cooler than stockless weapons, myself, at least outside of pistols.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Hmm but scouts i think are about size of a regular humen and they can fire bolters properly.... or are scouts enhanced? Lol i dont know that much spass marines fluff
"I’m Warlord Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka an’ I speak wiv da word of da gods. We iz gonna stomp da ‘ooniverse flat an’ kill anyfing that fights back. We iz gonna do this coz’ we’re Orks an’ we was made ta fight an’ win!"
-Graffiti on Warlord Battle Titan wreckage, found by Dark Angels at Westerisle, Piscina IV
Scouts are Space Marines minus a Black Carapace implant. They get that before becoming full Battle Brothers. Prior to and during the implantation process, they're still Initiates (or whatever alternate name the Chapter uses) and are more-or-less as human as any other teenager... at least for awhile.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Scouts are about as strong as a full Astartes, except that the yaren't wearing power armor. But power armor alone isn't enough to raise someone's strength category in tabletop, as humans in power armor also don't get a strength increase.
Psienesis: There are many other implants, drugs, hormones, chemicals, and whatever other slop they're fed and injected and suppository'd to make them a Space Marin.e The only thing scouts are missing is power armor and maybe black carapace.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/08/17 22:48:32
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Aye, the only potentially important thing they'd miss for a comparison would be the additional strength from power armour servos, which they don't get to wear until becoming fully-fledged Battle Brothers.
That said, I also remember a fluff bit where an Apothecary reported on his Chapter letting kids fire their bolters to select potential recruits for the Chapter (-> anyone who did not injure himself during this trial).
[edit] Meh, too slow.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/08/17 22:50:12
Kilkrazy wrote:Perhaps the stock folds inside the weapon. There's enough room for it. The reason for a stock is to help with a solid aiming stance, not just for recoil. SMs wouldn't worry about that, because they are perfect.
We should all bear in mind that 40K isn't science fiction, it's science fantasy. There is no more than a vague pretence at realism in the science. "Rule of Cool" is the important factor.
Likewise the "canon" is not meant to be taken seriously. GW themselves describe it as a mixture of history, half-truths, propaganda, lies and legend. In such an background, it means nothing if sources contradict each other.
a Boltgun would be like an RPG without a rear exit point meaning the kick would be hitting your shoulder with the full force of a RPG round being fired and it would probably hurt you a little bit
1500 Points - 9 Wins, 2 Draws, 4 Losses
SerQuintus wrote: Horus was redeemed at the end. He didn't belong to them any more.
Psienesis wrote: "Redeemed" in the sense that even his soul was obliterated, sure.
Actually, the 3rd edition Rulebook has a cross-section of a bolt weapon and it clearly shows a "blast compensator" on the top acting as exit point. Even comes with little arrows showing where the blast is directed through (kind of like in a recoilless rifle).
Which is more than a modern day solid-slug shotgun has, and those fire their projectiles with much more force (-> less speed) than a boltgun and still give only a manageable kick.
Nothing in the studio material suggests an issue with recoil, the only things that are (repeatedly) talked about are size and weight, as well as a more complicated mechanism prone to failure when not maintained properly.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/08/19 15:00:08
I posted a video in an earlier post showing a real weapon used by normal humans firing what is essentially an 80mm mortar round. If there are present day technologies that can reduce the recoil to something tolerable in this instance then I'm quite sure that in the 41st millenia they would be able to mitigate recoil entirely. Especially if you consider there is a secondary ignition outside of the weapon.
The .75 caliber of a bolter is closer to a 19mm round so, here is a video of an actual "hand-held" weapon firing a 20mm round... without the bolters secondary ignition of course.
That doesn't mean they use said techniques in boltguns.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Uhlan wrote:I posted a video in an earlier post showing a real weapon used by normal humans firing what is essentially an 80mm mortar round. If there are present day technologies that can reduce the recoil to something tolerable in this instance then I'm quite sure that in the 41st millenia they would be able to mitigate recoil entirely. Especially if you consider there is a secondary ignition outside of the weapon.
The .75 caliber of a bolter is closer to a 19mm round so, here is a video of an actual "hand-held" weapon firing a 20mm round... without the bolters secondary ignition of course.
This reminds me, Stalker bolts are described as travelling at subsonic speed to reduce noise, meaning that even with active rocket motor, the projectile's speed is capped at a value quite close to the muzzle velocity of the gun you just posted!
That said, I guess the "low velocity" described in GW material would produce even less recoil than that. Still, great vid. If only they could add autofire to that...
All in all, I see no problem with the studio material here. Given how they explained bolt weaponry to work, it seems logical that people don't have much of an issue using them. Even a normal stubber or some of the heavier stub-handguns are probably more of an issue in that regard.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/08/19 20:48:02
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
I do notice that the guy firing that thing is getting kicked back a fair amount. On full auto that thing could easily knock you down, if it had a full auto mode.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote:I do notice that the guy firing that thing is getting kicked back a fair amount. On full auto that thing could easily knock you down, if it had a full auto mode.
...but not if you were a space marine in power armor.
Grey Templar wrote:I do notice that the guy firing that thing is getting kicked back a fair amount. On full auto that thing could easily knock you down, if it had a full auto mode.
Possibly, likely depends on one's exact physiology - there are people who can auto-fire an MG42 without bracing it, too. It would fit to the Munitorum Manual's description of not recommending automatic fire for anyone other than a Space Marine or enhanced with bionics or power armour, but that's Black Library stuff and as such not very reliable. The low velocity of the initial stage as well as a bolt weapon's own weight would likely diminish recoil to lower degrees than the PAW-20 does.
Nowadays, there's also 12g automatic shotguns that have next to no recoil, internal spring mechanisms granting sufficient compensation to allow you to even firing them with a single hand or outright dual-wield them. 12g is approximately 19mm - or caliber 0.74 (a bolter has 0.75).
The fully automatic caliber .74 AA-12 has a muzzle velocity of about 350 m/s, which is faster than both the grenade launcher in the video above as well as a bolter-fired Stalker shell's rocket motor in its 2nd stage.
Personally, I have yet to see any argument why bolt weapons should produce such massive recoil other than personal preferences. The studio material makes it clear that a lot of people aside from Space Marines are employing this gun, and its technical descriptions are sufficient to back up the physics behind it - even though that should not even be necessary, this being a sci-fi/fantasy setting and all.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/08/20 15:42:06
Grey Templar wrote:I do notice that the guy firing that thing is getting kicked back a fair amount. On full auto that thing could easily knock you down, if it had a full auto mode.
...but not if you were a space marine in power armor.
Which is kind of the point, yes? A Space Marine in power armor can handle this weapon, but on an unaugmented human they need different patterns of manufacture and features and etc in order to make it usable.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Grey Templar wrote:I do notice that the guy firing that thing is getting kicked back a fair amount. On full auto that thing could easily knock you down, if it had a full auto mode.
...but not if you were a space marine in power armor.
Which is kind of the point, yes? A Space Marine in power armor can handle this weapon, but on an unaugmented human they need different patterns of manufacture and features and etc in order to make it usable.
It just dosen't rise to the point of ripping your arm off. Actually well I am here, that gun looks plastic. Plastic weapons have more kick because they are lighter. A bolter would be metal armored, and have a recoil dampener.
Grey Templar wrote:I do notice that the guy firing that thing is getting kicked back a fair amount. On full auto that thing could easily knock you down, if it had a full auto mode.
...but not if you were a space marine in power armor.
Which is kind of the point, yes? A Space Marine in power armor can handle this weapon, but on an unaugmented human they need different patterns of manufacture and features and etc in order to make it usable.
It's not plastic, it's carbon fibre. Yeah, a solid steel gun would be heavier and reduce recoil... but that thing looks punishing. I wouldn't want to have to deploy that in a protracted engagement, you'd be feeling it for days. Also, the semi-automatic nature of it suits it better as an anti-vehicle or sniping weapon, though it was obvious that the soldier firing it was having trouble re-acquiring sight-picture for follow-up shots.
Not an ideal weapon of war.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Not ideal for a soldier without proper support to fire it.
With the various powered suits that are being developed, it wouldn't be all that difficult to make an armored suit with one of those things wrist mounted and fully automatic.
I think the main reason that powered suits of armor havn't been developed already is because most conflicts are waged in a very limited aspect lately. a suit like that wouldn't be highly maneuverable until more powerful servos are developed. It would only be practical in a protracted and more traditional form of warfare, not the kind waged against insurgents or rebels.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
I think the main reason is that we're still developing proper power sources for them
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Yeah, thats the biggest limitation.
Either we need small scale fusion reactors like Space marines have(probably not happening anytime soon) or we need batteries capable of holding massive reseviors of power(easier solution)
Its all going to be based on Hydraulics which actually wouldn't have a massive power drain. assuming something around 7 feet tall with the pilot inside. Its any auxiliary systems, like comms, radar, or additional sensors, that will really drain power. If you went for a simple suit of armor and a comm system, the thing wouldn't have huge power problems. Servo capabilities might be more limiting then anything.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
1500 Points - 9 Wins, 2 Draws, 4 Losses
