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Well, as far as I can reason, the main issue would be reload capacity.

Truthfully, comm systems in a suit of power armor would take up similar power to other systems. A sensor system that can predict movement/counter incoming projectiles takes more energy, but overall software on the system shouldn't cause too many issues.

Then we come to the real problem, an automated reload system. A bolter implanted in power armor is pretty simple, and would function much the same. The main issue, then, is how do you load it, how do you balance it, and what benefits do you gain over a traditional bolter?

A reload system powered via an external feed could be a solution, but then damage to the feeder would render the weapon useless until the end of the battle (or a repair session. It would then be difficult to acquire another weapon if all were in armor).
What's the utility of such a weapon over the other system? It may free up one hand, but a storm bolter already does that. If the implant has manual reload, again, there isn't much gained.
So power system or not, is there a feasible reason for the Astartes to implement such a change? Is the benefit great enough? I find that, sadly, they don't.

With something like this, you could have a belt feed to a magazine on the back of the suit(like the old PAGK models)

Kasrkai wrote:Agreed. Not to mention the small initial charge would make negligible recoil, even for a normal human, somewhat like an RPG on auto, which isn't to bad from my experience. Must be including the rate of fire.

RPGs have an open back, allowing the force to exits from both sides. Bolters do not have an opening at the back, so all the force becomes recoil.

As is stated about bolters as gyrojets, they leave the barrel at low velocity, and then accelerate via an explosion (hence the perforated end barrel) allowing them to reach near terminal velocity almost instantaneously, providing potent close and long range combat. Because they are '2 stage' devices, that force does not have to become recoil

Hashbeth wrote:As is stated about bolters as gyrojets

They aren't gyrojet weapons. They're two-stage weapons, which first fire as a bullet (thus leaving shell casings-- no, boltguns aren't caseless) and then ignite the rocket after it leaves the barrel.

^For the first time...Ever...I agree with Melissia

This is true. However, firing a bolter shell at the speed of a bullet or less from the barrell (let's say 300mph) to the end perforation would still take milliseconds, and have normal recoil [btw,the muzzle velocity of an M16 is 2,180 mph, so that's 1/7th of its speed] . Then at the beginning of the second stage, the bolter could achieve closer to full velocity (rapid acceleration) allowing it to still be more than deadly at point-blank range (including armor piercing).

Either way, there is no necessary force behind that second acceleration (especially if done at the perforated end of the barrel). Thus it really could have a low recoil (similar to an M1 garand or less) and be effective and a rocket-propelled round in its second stage.

I suppose 300mph is still plenty lethal considering the additional mass of a Bolt round compared to an M-16.

And yet, not likely enough to penetrate flak armor, which is effective against low velocity rounds and explosions/fragmentation.

It would still penetrate, because

a, It is a .75 caliber round with a diamondite tip.
and
b, Because GW says so.

People seem to be ignoring the fact that just because something's canon, it doesn't necessarily have to make sense.

im2randomghgh wrote:RPGs have an open back, allowing the force to exits from both sides. Bolters do not have an opening at the back, so all the force becomes recoil.

But as has been pointed out before, bolters do have an opening on the top.

im2randomghgh wrote:It would still penetrate, because
a, It is a .75 caliber round with a diamondite tip.
and
b, Because GW says so.

And of course c, because of the rocked motor that seems to have no problem accelerating a bolt to sufficient speed in no-time (which goes back to b).

Ronin-Sage wrote:People seem to be ignoring the fact that just because something's canon, it doesn't necessarily have to make sense.

This too.

Though I think that given what we know, this actually sounds fairly realistic. More than a lot of other stuff in the setting that people don't seem to mind, anyways.

im2randomghgh wrote:It would still penetrate, because

a, It is a .75 caliber round with a diamondite tip.

going at a low velocity against armor designed to resist bullets going at a much greater velocity.

I think there is a misunderstanding.

If, at the edge of the barrel, at the perforated end, the second stage kicks in (starting with explosive acceleration) the round would be going 90% of full velocity or greater. At this level and at close combat, the round would reach 100% of full velocity incredibly quickly (a matter of feet). The Jet propulsion only keeps it at that speed, as the bolt must overcome friction of atmosphere.
If a full acceleration was used by the bolt weapon (i.e. it starts the jet acceleration in the barrel) it would be terribly inefficient, as bolt weapons would only be efficient to use against ranged targets, and it would not address cc kills at all. Due to that inefficiency, I must assume bolt weapons behave in the former way, via a two stage (with explosive 2nd stage starting acceleration) process

Also, a bolt moving at 90% of full speed is still capable of penetrating flak armor. This point keeps coming up, but it is consistently questioned.

Really here's the question of this article: Can a bolt be quickly accelerated in a second-stage ignition process? I say yes, as this technology is not too difficult to achieve. If so, then it is more than effective at all rages, without much recoil.

The misconception is that you think that once launched from the barrel, the bolter stays at low velocity with a slow acceleration. A fast, explosive acceleration followed by continual thrust (to keep speeds constant) is not only plausible but, from what I know of bolt weapons, the intended design. As such they can have low recoil and still be deadly at all ranges of combat.

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:It would still penetrate, because

a, It is a .75 caliber round with a diamondite tip.

going at a low velocity against armor designed to resist bullets going at a much greater velocity.

Velocity is simply an objects speed in a given direction. Speed =/= penetrating power.


Penetrating power is going to be the Velocity X Mass which will give the force of the impact, distributed over the armor piercing tip. a low speed object is still capable of penetrating armor and killing you, especially if it explodes as well.

300 mph times the mass of the bolt round(which is unknown)

the increased mass of the bolt round and its armor piercing tip certaintly make it capable of penetrating armor at point blank range.

Hashbeth wrote:I think there is a misunderstanding.

If, at the edge of the barrel, at the perforated end, the second stage kicks in (starting with explosive acceleration) the round would be going 90% of full velocity or greater. At this level and at close combat, the round would reach 100% of full velocity incredibly quickly (a matter of feet). The Jet propulsion only keeps it at that speed, as the bolt must overcome friction of atmosphere.
If a full acceleration was used by the bolt weapon (i.e. it starts the jet acceleration in the barrel) it would be terribly inefficient, as bolt weapons would only be efficient to use against ranged targets, and it would not address cc kills at all. Due to that inefficiency, I must assume bolt weapons behave in the former way, via a two stage (with explosive 2nd stage starting acceleration) process

Also, a bolt moving at 90% of full speed is still capable of penetrating flak armor. This point keeps coming up, but it is consistently questioned.

Really here's the question of this article: Can a bolt be quickly accelerated in a second-stage ignition process? I say yes, as this technology is not too difficult to achieve. If so, then it is more than effective at all rages, without much recoil.

The misconception is that you think that once launched from the barrel, the bolter stays at low velocity with a slow acceleration. A fast, explosive acceleration followed by continual thrust (to keep speeds constant) is not only plausible but, from what I know of bolt weapons, the intended design. As such they can have low recoil and still be deadly at all ranges of combat.

You're absolutely spot-on here! The closest we have got to the bolt round (the Gyrojet round) reached maximum velocity within 50-60 feet. so I think we can assume that in several thousand years time they can have whittled this distance down somewhat. The time taken by the fast-burning rocket to accelerate the bolt to maximum velocity would be fractions of a second, and it would be happening outside of the barrel, hence no recoil from the rocket.

Bolts aren't exactly Gyrojets.


they have the missile as the actual slug, but unlike Gyrojets they also have an initial stage which is identical to a normal bullet. i

in other words it is fired like a normal bullet, but after exiting the barrel the rocket ignites and propels the round even faster and keeps it stable in flight. This eliminates the Gyrojets weakness of non-lethality at close range.



Bolts are more properly described as rocket assisted exploding rounds.

It mentions in the Ultramarines novels (several times, although I'm not sure how far they are considered as 'canon') that if you are shot at very close range by a bolter, the bolt round will often punch straight through (even through astartes armour) without exploding, as the explosive warhead hasn't had time to arm yet.

Combined with tho other fluff about bolters this would indicate to me that:

At very close range the bolts are already travelling at extremely high velocity.
The bolt round 'heads' are extremely tough, designed to penetrate and also to have minimal energy transfer (deformation/expansion) & frangibility upon terminal impact with hard materials.
The bolt gun shells are actualy very complex, containing at the very least a casing, primary propellant, secondary 'rocket' propellant stage, explosive payload, mass-reactive sensor for detonation, and an extremely tough penetrating tip.
The nature of an ammunition incorporating any sort of 'rocket' propellant stage would probably necessitate a smoothbore barrel, so bolt rounds may be extending fin-stabilised, or possibly some kind of a discarding sabot fin-stabilised arrangement.

I would think the most logical (lol!) build for a bolt round would be a main primary conventional charge to launch the things, a short burn, high yield rocket stage (probably ignited by the primary charge), and the mass-reactive warhead finally arming once the rocket stage is completely exhausted.

Grey Templar wrote:Bolts aren't exactly Gyrojets.


they have the missile as the actual slug, but unlike Gyrojets they also have an initial stage which is identical to a normal bullet. i

in other words it is fired like a normal bullet, but after exiting the barrel the rocket ignites and propels the round even faster and keeps it stable in flight. This eliminates the Gyrojets weakness of non-lethality at close range.



Bolts are more properly described as rocket assisted exploding rounds.

I know, I was just using the Gyrojet as an example of the closest we've got in the real world to a bolt.

Rocket-assisted artillery rounds are closer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_Assisted_Projectile

Grey Templar wrote:Velocity is simply an objects speed in a given direction. Speed =/= penetrating power.

Flak armor provides protection against armor piercing special ammunition from autoguns. Yeah, specially designed slug ammunition that's meant to pierce body armor is essentially only AP6 in 40k Bolter shells need all the help they can get to penetrate the armor, and in fact, good quality flak armor (not the standard issue kind, this kind is probably commissioned rather than ordered en masse) still provides some limited protection against bolter shells.

Melissia wrote:Rocket-assisted artillery rounds are closer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_Assisted_Projectile

Grey Templar wrote:Velocity is simply an objects speed in a given direction. Speed =/= penetrating power.

Flak armor provides protection against armor piercing special ammunition from autoguns. Yeah, specially designed slug ammunition that's meant to pierce body armor is essentially only AP6 in 40k Bolter shells need all the help they can get to penetrate the armor, and in fact, good quality flak armor (not the standard issue kind, this kind is probably commissioned rather than ordered en masse) still provides some limited protection against bolter shells.

Wait, you mean IG armor? I think that is what carapace armor is supposed to be.

Carapace armor is basically Flak armor with Ceramite plates added to the vital areas. Flak jackets, which are probably very similer to our modern body armor of various bullet resistant fabrics and ceramic plates, don't provide much protection against bolt rounds.

Ceramite is a step above our current ceramics. From what I have read, it seems to be Ceramic in build, but its constructed and reinforced at the atomic level with crystallan structures. with PA this is then additionally reinforced with Adamentium, which is a metal of some kind. heavier and stronger then steel.

No, no...I know what carapace armor IS...I meant isn't that supposed to be it's function? Stopping bolter fire. Flak armor doesn't.

Melissia wrote:Rocket-assisted artillery rounds are closer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_Assisted_Projectile

Grey Templar wrote:Velocity is simply an objects speed in a given direction. Speed =/= penetrating power.

Flak armor provides protection against armor piercing special ammunition from autoguns. Yeah, specially designed slug ammunition that's meant to pierce body armor is essentially only AP6 in 40k Bolter shells need all the help they can get to penetrate the armor, and in fact, good quality flak armor (not the standard issue kind, this kind is probably commissioned rather than ordered en masse) still provides some limited protection against bolter shells.

Melissia, a bolter could easily be at 100% acceleration at less than 1 feet (even immediately) in the 40k universe without major recoil. The explosion at the perforated end of the bolter (the second acceleration) can easily be powerful enough to launch the bolter to full speed (which I believe is an unknown). It would still pierce armor, and have little recoil!

Now, if you say that this kind of acceleration is impossible (providing a source) then I would agree. But physics hold that it is, indeed, quite possible. Hence no matter the distance, a second stage acceleration can bring a bolt to full speed incredibly fast, making it JUST AS POWERFUL IN CC AS IT IS AT DISTANCE.

Hashbeth wrote:

Melissia wrote:Rocket-assisted artillery rounds are closer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_Assisted_Projectile

Grey Templar wrote:Velocity is simply an objects speed in a given direction. Speed =/= penetrating power.

Flak armor provides protection against armor piercing special ammunition from autoguns. Yeah, specially designed slug ammunition that's meant to pierce body armor is essentially only AP6 in 40k Bolter shells need all the help they can get to penetrate the armor, and in fact, good quality flak armor (not the standard issue kind, this kind is probably commissioned rather than ordered en masse) still provides some limited protection against bolter shells.

Melissia, a bolter could easily be at 100% acceleration at less than 1 feet (even immediately) in the 40k universe without major recoil. The explosion at the perforated end of the bolter (the second acceleration) can easily be powerful enough to launch the bolter to full speed (which I believe is an unknown). It would still pierce armor, and have little recoil!

Now, if you say that this kind of acceleration is impossible (providing a source) then I would agree. But physics hold that it is, indeed, quite possible. Hence no matter the distance, a second stage acceleration can bring a bolt to full speed incredibly fast, making it JUST AS POWERFUL IN CC AS IT IS AT DISTANCE.

Actually, to be fair to physics, assume the round pops out of the barrel with no force. It then ignites it's motor and flies off. All of that recoil flies strait back. That's right! Right into the barrel of the boltgun, leaving you with the exact same problem you had to begin with. Recoil.

Bolters are show to have recoil compensaters. thats what those little coils on the top are.

Grey Templar wrote:Bolters are show to have recoil compensaters. thats what those little coils on the top are.

I completely agree that bolters (all kinds) have recoil. Lasers have recoil. You just can't feel it due to the incredibly small mass of a photon. The real fix is that IG firing bolters take supplements and steroids so they can deal with the brutal punishment of firing a .75 cannon at arms length.

Recoil compensaters can only do so much. Full-auto is a bad idea without augmentation. risk of injury is probably mostly blown out of proportion. it probably has to do with accuracy rather then getting your arm popped.

But the issue is the perforated ends, as Templar said. Even at only a scant 10 mph, the bolt with an explosive acceleration can lead to the speed, and absorb much of the recoil. The issue is, are the recoil compensators at the end of the barrel good at their job. No reason for them not to be.

Really the issue comes down to how fast a bolt needs to travel to be at combat effectiveness. If we know this, we can decide if the recoil is too great, or if the recoil compensators can deal with the force.

Grey Templar wrote:Recoil compensaters can only do so much. Full-auto is a bad idea without augmentation. risk of injury is probably mostly blown out of proportion. it probably has to do with accuracy rather then getting your arm popped.

Agreed. Recoil compensator, not recoil eliminator. I imagine that an IG firing a bolt pistol would be much like an inexperience modern shooter firing a Smith & Wesson 500, or a Desert Eagle .50 Action Express. Very unpleasant, but doable.