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ND - and you still ignore the SA rule barring units from returning to the battle unless a special rule specifies otherwise.

YAd - "at this stage" isnt a single point in time. "for them the battle is over" is a directive, not fluff. Your arbitrary decision to call it fluff has zero support.

Yad wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:No, I'm equating the phrase "at this stage" to mean that, not the word "stage".
It's not a subjective definition, it's how the phrase is used in plain English.

Okie-dokie, this what I think the phrase, "at this stage" equates to:

"Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this [point, period, or step in the Assault Phase]; for them the battle is over. EL does not rescue or save the unit from destruction at that point, period, or step in the Assault phase. Therefore, you must roll for legally placed EL tokens at the end of the Assault phase.

Your definiion:

"Unless otherwise stated, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this [Phase]; for them the battle is over." EL does rescue/save the unit from destruction in the phase that it was swept. Therefore, you cannot roll for legally placed EL tokens at the end of that Assault phase.

Did I capture that correctly? I'm actually having a bit of trouble trying to equate your definition as I don't think it's correct. I'm going by what I think the word stage means.

"Unless otherwise stated, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit from this point forward; for them the battle is over." EL does rescue/save the unit from destruction in the phase that it was swept. Therefore, you cannot roll for legally placed EL tokens at the end of that Assault phase.

I'm going by the definition of the phrase - not the definition of the individual word. At this point you can't rescue the unit. This continues until you have a rule that states otherwise (since there's no ending given in the rule).

I don't care about EL anymore but jesus christ "at this stage" has a very clear meaning in English. I asked a teacher and they fell out of a chair laughing at this, I asked the internet and it agreed.

At this stage means now, it is by it's definition a point in time. I will give up on everything else so long as we agree that the rulebook uses English as it is used in reality.
You are saying "at this stage" means the same as "from this stage" or "from this point" which is continuous but a different phrase with a different meaning.

Whether or not that means that the unit can not come back I don't care but please stop misusing and misrepresenting that phrase to prove a point.

Wow..... this got 10 pages almost.....

this one is so simple. Sweeping advances don't allow special rules to save them.... Too easy.... At this point, means, at this point till the end of the game. Where else would you read this "At this point?" At this point you can not assault but later after shooting you can? At this point you can not move until your enemy has moved first?

Seriously, the word play is that of a child. The cookie jar only had a posted note on the front saying "I could only take one" but the back didn't so I took 10. :p

Childish ways of trying to cheat.

Adrian Fue Fue wrote:At this point, means, at this point till the end of the game. Where else would you read this "At this point?" At this point you can not assault but later after shooting you can? At this point you can not move until your enemy has moved first?

Seriously, the word play is that of a child. The cookie jar only had a posted note on the front saying "I could only take one" but the back didn't so I took 10. :p

Childish ways of trying to cheat.

You call me a cheater? How dare you?

http://idioms.yourdictionary.com/at-this-stage

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:"at this stage"= phase of CC as defined

Proof? Citation? Anything besides your opinion?

Not needed. Prove that it doesnt refer to anything more than that point in time. The definition of stage itself brings it to a single point in time.

liturgies of blood wrote:http://idioms.yourdictionary.com/at-this-stage

Going by that:

At this (that) step, phase, or position in a process or activity

At this step (Phase/Assault Phase)

They can not be saved.

EL does not work since it saves the unit in the assault phase, and no special rules can save the unit at this stage, unless otherwise specified.

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:"at this stage"= phase of CC as defined

Proof? Citation? Anything besides your opinion?

Not needed. Prove that it doesnt refer to anything more than that point in time. The definition of stage itself brings it to a single point in time.

+1 to this! At this stage refers to a single step in a process. I have no clue how GW will eventually (maybe) FAQ the question of EL and SA, but the argument that "at this stage" somehow actually means "from now on" is quite incorrect and was getting silly. :-p

Although I enjoyed reading these last 10 pages of argument. It makes work seem so much more pleasant.

Tell me when they could be saved....

They don't get any counters that turn. They lost them when they retreated. They don't get any new tokens as they would need to use their special rule. And they were already removed as casualties after the SA......

So can you put them back in after they were removed???

I do this all the time when my daemons die, I just re-summon them, over and over. When a unit is removed as a casualty you can redeploy it .... right?

DeathReaper wrote:

liturgies of blood wrote:http://idioms.yourdictionary.com/at-this-stage

Going by that:

At this (that) step, phase, or position in a process or activity

At this step (Phase/Assault Phase)

They can not be saved.

EL does not work since it saves the unit in the assault phase, and no special rules can save the unit at this stage, unless otherwise specified.

Fine that is a valid reading. Not how I read it, I read it as during the SA but people can differ. I still don't enjoy some people calling me a cheater over it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Adrian Fue Fue wrote:Tell me when they could be saved....

They don't get any counters that turn. They lost them when they retreated. They don't get any new tokens as they would need to use their special rule. And they were already removed as casualties after the SA......

So can you put them back in after they were removed???

I do this all the time when my daemons die, I just re-summon them, over and over. When a unit is removed as a casualty you can redeploy it .... right?

Trolls be trolling.

Adrian Fue Fue wrote:Tell me when they could be saved....

They don't get any counters that turn. They lost them when they retreated. They don't get any new tokens as they would need to use their special rule. And they were already removed as casualties after the SA......

Huh? RP tokens are removed when the unit fails its Morale Check. EL tokens are not removed. EL (and RP) tokens are placed when model(s) are removed from play (as a casualty for the purists ).

Adrian Fue Fue wrote:So can you put them back in after they were removed???

No, but then again the scenario you put forth doesn't exist.

Adrian Fue Fue wrote:I do this all the time when my daemons die, I just re-summon them, over and over. When a unit is removed as a casualty you can redeploy it .... right?

Hyperbole fail

-Yad

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:"at this stage"= phase of CC as defined

Proof? Citation? Anything besides your opinion?

Not needed. Prove that it doesnt refer to anything more than that point in time. The definition of stage itself brings it to a single point in time.

Stop. Citing. That. Word.

It's a phrase. Seriously. At this stage your help is not needed. Does that mean the very next second your help is needed? No, it means unless something changes your help isn't needed.
SA restricts the changing event to something that specifies it can work. EL does not specify.

You've been proven wrong. Please cite a rule that agrees with you.

All we keep getting is cite the rule show me this and that adds nothing to this argument whe rules have been cited many times

1 Side argues that SA happens then ends which makes sense, the other side argue its an ongoing event which opens up a massive sink hole ,let me elaborate

If after a uint has been swept and RFPAAC (as the rule states )when does it end ?

Consolidation takes place after SA not during so does SA say the sweeping unit can consolidate during SA? no

Is consolidation a point in the assault phase all of its own based on events that have happened before it ? yes

So if SA is ongoing to some magical point does it stand to reason that a unit sweeping another cant consolidate until the SA has ended?

Do we say that unit is unable to move shoot or assault till the end the game as its swept a unit and SA is on going ~?

ONE LAST TIME

Unit performs SA on a Necron unit that contains an IC /character the unit is destroyed and RFPAAC, an EL token is placed as per the Necron codex and FAQ (codex trumps BRB) a token is not a necron but a means of keeping track of models that that are eligible to attempt to Reanimate .
The unit /models have been RFPAAC as required by SA ,

Does SA say anything about tokens that are not units or models? no

The Victorious unit having performed an SA now are allowed to move on to the next step (not during SA but after ) and consolidate(again a separate rule used after a unit has been SA'ed or has run away.)
When all other assaults/combats have been resolved(resolved ,concluded,ended) at the end of the phase if any RP/EL tokens have been placed as per the Necron codex and FAQ ,the Necron player gets to roll for each token placed to see if any models reanimate (Reanimate to bring back to life or working order something destroyed or killed )if successful the model is placed within 3" of the token or in coherency with its unit .

This is how i play it and how everyone i know plays it and how everyone saying EL works after SA(not during ) works .

anything you have argued up to this point has not changed this nor will it as there is no RAW to back up your "for them the battle is over" means X or at this stage means until i say so or you cant bring back a unit (which SA does not say ,it says the must be RFPAAC which they have been .

snakel wrote:1 Side argues that SA happens then ends which makes sense, the other side argue its an ongoing event which opens up a massive sink hole ,let me elaborate

Only if you blatantly strawman.

If after a uint has been swept and RFPAAC (as the rule states )when does it end ?

Consolidation takes place after SA not during so does SA say the sweeping unit can consolidate during SA? no

Is consolidation a point in the assault phase all of its own based on events that have happened before it ? yes

So if SA is ongoing to some magical point does it stand to reason that a unit sweeping another cant consolidate until the SA has ended?

Do we say that unit is unable to move shoot or assault till the end the game as its swept a unit and SA is on going ~?

No. SA finishes resolving. It has an ongoing effect. Can you understand that?

Unit performs SA on a Necron unit that contains an IC /character the unit is destroyed and RFPAAC, an EL token is placed as per the Necron codex and FAQ (codex trumps BRB) a token is not a necron but a means of keeping track of models that that are eligible to attempt to Reanimate .

Correct.

The unit /models have been RFPAAC as required by SA ,

Correct.

Does SA say anything about tokens that are not units or models? no

Correct.

The Victorious unit having performed an SA now are allowed to move on to the next step (not during SA but after ) and consolidate(again a separate rule used after a unit has been SA'ed or has run away.)
When all other assaults/combats have been resolved(resolved ,concluded,ended) at the end of the phase if any RP/EL tokens have been placed as per the Necron codex and FAQ ,the Necron player gets to roll for each token placed to see if any models reanimate (Reanimate to bring back to life or working order something destroyed or killed )if successful the model is placed within 3" of the token or in coherency with its unit .

Where is your permission to rescue a unit?

I cause a wound to a multi-wound model. It is completely resolved and done.
Why am I not allowed to erase that wound? The rule is finished.

Oh, it has a lasting effect? How can it do that after the rule is done resolving?

anything you have argued up to this point has not changed this nor will it as there is no RAW to back up your "for them the battle is over" means X or at this stage means until i say so or you cant bring back a unit (which SA does not say ,it says the must be RFPAAC which they have been .

It's rather insulting to hear that the rules I've been quoting are not RAW. Can you cite one rule I've quoted that isn't?
SA explicitly says "Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage" which means you can't bring back a unit.

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:"at this stage"= phase of CC as defined

Proof? Citation? Anything besides your opinion?

Not needed. Prove that it doesnt refer to anything more than that point in time. The definition of stage itself brings it to a single point in time.

Stop. Citing. That. Word.

A bit heavy-handed perhaps? 'At this stage' is using the word 'stage' as a noun. If you said that phrase to someone who's never heard it before, don't you think they'd benefit from knowing what the definition of 'stage' is? Wow, I can't believe we're even discussing this

rigeld2 wrote:It's a phrase. Seriously. At this stage your help is not needed.Does that mean the very next second your help is needed? No, it means unless something changes your help isn't needed.

First off, that's a very loaded statement. It assumes a scenario that conforms to your statement. It could mean that, it could also mean at this particular point in time (i.e., this step in the process) your help isn't needed.

rigeld2 wrote:SA restricts the changing event to something that specifies it can work. EL does not specify. You've been proven wrong. Please cite a rule that agrees with you.

Of course EL doesn't specify that it stops a SA from happening. There's nothing in the EL rule that says it can prevent a SA.

-Yad

rigeld2 wrote:

snakel wrote:1 Side argues that SA happens then ends which makes sense, the other side argue its an ongoing event which opens up a massive sink hole ,let me elaborate

Only if you blatantly strawman.

If after a uint has been swept and RFPAAC (as the rule states )when does it end ?

Consolidation takes place after SA not during so does SA say the sweeping unit can consolidate during SA? no

Is consolidation a point in the assault phase all of its own based on events that have happened before it ? yes

So if SA is ongoing to some magical point does it stand to reason that a unit sweeping another cant consolidate until the SA has ended?

Do we say that unit is unable to move shoot or assault till the end the game as its swept a unit and SA is on going ~?

No. SA finishes resolving. It has an ongoing effect. Can you understand that?

Unit performs SA on a Necron unit that contains an IC /character the unit is destroyed and RFPAAC, an EL token is placed as per the Necron codex and FAQ (codex trumps BRB) a token is not a necron but a means of keeping track of models that that are eligible to attempt to Reanimate .

Correct.

The unit /models have been RFPAAC as required by SA ,

Correct.

Does SA say anything about tokens that are not units or models? no

Correct.

The Victorious unit having performed an SA now are allowed to move on to the next step (not during SA but after ) and consolidate(again a separate rule used after a unit has been SA'ed or has run away.)
When all other assaults/combats have been resolved(resolved ,concluded,ended) at the end of the phase if any RP/EL tokens have been placed as per the Necron codex and FAQ ,the Necron player gets to roll for each token placed to see if any models reanimate (Reanimate to bring back to life or working order something destroyed or killed )if successful the model is placed within 3" of the token or in coherency with its unit .

Where is your permission to rescue a unit?

I cause a wound to a multi-wound model. It is completely resolved and done.
Why am I not allowed to erase that wound? The rule is finished.

Oh, it has a lasting effect? How can it do that after the rule is done resolving?

anything you have argued up to this point has not changed this nor will it as there is no RAW to back up your "for them the battle is over" means X or at this stage means until i say so or you cant bring back a unit (which SA does not say ,it says the must be RFPAAC which they have been .

It's rather insulting to hear that the rules I've been quoting are not RAW. Can you cite one rule I've quoted that isn't?
SA explicitly says "Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage" which means you can't bring back a unit.

Where does SA say anything about rescuing a unit / where does EL/RP say anything about rescuing a unit ?
what part of the unit has been RFPAAC are you missing ?
It has a lasting effect so if my model is shot and fails its save i cant make an EL/RP roll to reanimate , as you say they must stay dead due to death being ongoing not the end ?

I have quoted rules you have argued i have not
other have stated RAW cited rules and you and others have stated they have not .

you keep asking for RAW or rules to be cited but have not done so your self other than to keep saying the same thing with no explanation or reference to back it up .

Circle and round comes to mind retort to my post with the same old argument i am off to laugh with my gaming club at the fact people think EL does not work at the end of the Assault phase after SA has been resolved or in your words after SA has never ended


re your quote of where you have not cited RAW at this stage is not covered by RAW as to your interpretation of at this stage ,rescuing a unit is not covered by RAW saying SA is ongoing is not covered by RAW

rigeld2 wrote:Stop. Citing. That. Word.

It's a phrase. Seriously. At this stage your help is not needed. Does that mean the very next second your help is needed? No, it means unless something changes your help isn't needed.
SA restricts the changing event to something that specifies it can work. EL does not specify.

You've been proven wrong. Please cite a rule that agrees with you.

Nothing has been proven. Which is why this thread is 10 pages long. You asked for "Proof" that "at this stage" was a single point in time. When you look it up you find that it Does refer to a specific point in time and now you change up and say to stop citing that word.

Going by that:

At this (that) step, phase, or position in a process or activity

At this step (Phase/Assault Phase)

They can not be saved.

EL does not work since it saves the unit in the assault phase, and no special rules can save the unit at this stage, unless otherwise specified.

While you can generalize it like that, the problem is that SA is in a subphase in the assault phase.

"Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage"

Such a leading sentence, no?

If it said "From this point on" this post would be over by page two.

How often does the Rulebook say "at this stage," and its intent stays until the end of the game?

I am a huge fan of quoting from the book verbatim. And no matter how you look at it, you can only pull examples, references, and particular wording from GW rulebooks of the most current edition.

Real quick Yad, back on page eight, you said the models would get tokens before the Sweeping Advance which is correct, however per the rules for Reanimation Protocols, you would have to take the Ever Living token away if its down before the Sweeping Advance is initiated.

I gota ask another more question here;

The rules for Ever Living state that model gets back up, or has to roll to see if they get back up? Also, the model/unit has been removed at this point, please tell me where it states no token is placed in the rules for Sweeping Adavance. Cause the line right before "No special rules may save them..." yada yada, it says that they are removed as casualties. Triggering Ever Living.


Sweeping Advances rule states "Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; For them, the battle is over." which comes across pretty clearly as "you may not place the model *in any way, shape, or form back onto the battlefield*". We can all agree with this, yes?
The sad reality is that the sentence just prior to this one that states "no model/unit may be saved" has met the trigger conditions for Ever Living. We enter limbo as the model/unit remains dead until it is time to roll. When it comes back, the rules for Ever Living tell you to put it back onto the battlefield; Thusly triggering Basic Versus Advanced.

Yes, the way Sweeping Advances is written tells us that no save or special rule may save them at this point. Understood there. I dont argue it one bit. However, when my model gets back up at the end of the phase and is unable to join another unit and becomes the sole survivor of that unit. He violates the rules for Sweeping Advances portion stating no special rule may be used. Yet, it was allowed to trigger Ever Living with the words from Sweeping Advances just prior to this statement in the same rule. On top of all this.

To sum it up people, it only violates the portion of Sweeping Advances that states no special rule may save them until it gets back up. However, by this time, we have a conflict of rules. Those two rules being Sweeping Advances itself, and Ever Living. One is from a codex, the other is in the BRB. BRB states when this happens. Codex trumps. The line that states "no special rule may save the unit" is now trumped.







This. Is. How. It. Is. Written.

Xzerios wrote:Real quick Yad, back on page eight, you said the models would get tokens before the Sweeping Advance which is correct, however per the rules for Reanimation Protocols, you would have to take the Ever Living token away if its down before the Sweeping Advance is initiated.

If you examine both the RP section and the EL section you should note that only the RP tokens are removed when a unit fails its Morale Check. The RP section focuses (both literally and contextually) on the RP tokens. The rules for each (RP & EL) stand on their own for the most part. There are however very specific instances when EL makes use of the RP rules. The EL rules themselves though only specifies two ways that the EL token can be removed.

1.) By successfully rolling the EL check. You place the model within 3'' and remove the token.
2.) If the model cannot be placed within 3'' of the token and more than 1'' from an enemy model you cannot place the model. You must then remove the EL token from the board.

Was there a FAQ Q&A that also addressed this. I'm getting thread fatigue and can't remember

Xzerios wrote:I gota ask another more question here;

The rules for Ever Living state that model gets back up, or has to roll to see if they get back up?

You have to succeed at the EL roll to be able to bring the model back into play.

Xzerios wrote:Also, the model/unit has been removed at this point, please tell me where it states no token is placed in the rules for Sweeping Adavance. Cause the line right before "No special rules may save them..." yada yada, it says that they are removed as casualties. Triggering Ever Living.

It doesn't. This is a change in the 6th edition. The opposing viewpoint is such that I suppose the very act of placing the EL token after a successful SA would constitute an attempt to 'save' or 'rescue' the unit/model. I don't hold to that viewpoint.

Xzerios wrote:Sweeping Advances rule states "Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; For them, the battle is over." which comes across pretty clearly as "you may not place the model *in any way, shape, or form back onto the battlefield*". We can all agree with this, yes?

I disagree with that statement. the reasons why I've laid out in this thread.

Xzerios wrote:The sad reality is that the sentence just prior to this one that states "no model/unit may be saved" has met the trigger conditions for Ever Living. We enter limbo as the model/unit remains dead until it is time to roll. When it comes back, the rules for Ever Living tell you to put it back onto the battlefield; Thusly triggering Basic Versus Advanced.

Yes, the way Sweeping Advances is written tells us that no save or special rule may save them at this point. Understood there. I dont argue it one bit. However, when my model gets back up at the end of the phase and is unable to join another unit and becomes the sole survivor of that unit. He violates the rules for Sweeping Advances portion stating no special rule may be used. Yet, it was allowed to trigger Ever Living with the words from Sweeping Advances just prior to this statement in the same rule. On top of all this.

To sum it up people, it only violates the portion of Sweeping Advances that states no special rule may save them until it gets back up. However, by this time, we have a conflict of rules. Those two rules being Sweeping Advances itself, and Ever Living. One is from a codex, the other is in the BRB. BRB states when this happens. Codex trumps. The line that states "no special rule may save the unit" is now trumped.

What I think you're missing from my analysis is that rolling for EL does not run afoul of the restrictions you cite. EL doesn't save a unit from SA because SA has already destroyed the unit. The execution of the SA rule is, at this stage , complete. Rolling for EL doesn't turn back the clock and invalidate the SA.

-Yad







This. Is. How. It. Is. Written.

Yad wrote:A bit heavy-handed perhaps? 'At this stage' is using the word 'stage' as a noun. If you said that phrase to someone who's never heard it before, don't you think they'd benefit from knowing what the definition of 'stage' is? Wow, I can't believe we're even discussing this

I think they'd benefit infinitely more by knowing what the definition of the phrase is.
"I'm going to go hit the john."

First off, that's a very loaded statement. It assumes a scenario that conforms to your statement. It could mean that, it could also mean at this particular point in time (i.e., this step in the process) your help isn't needed.

Exactly correct. So something has to change (ie - go to the next step in the process) for your help to be needed.
SA restricts that change to otherwise state that it can rescue the unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

snakel wrote:Where does SA say anything about rescuing a unit

page 27 wrote:Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage

Emphasis mine.

/ where does EL/RP say anything about rescuing a unit ?

It doesn't. Thanks for noticing.

what part of the unit has been RFPAAC are you missing ?

None.

It has a lasting effect so if my model is shot and fails its save i cant make an EL/RP roll to reanimate , as you say they must stay dead due to death being ongoing not the end ?

No, RP/EL have triggers that allow you to stand back up.
Neither RP nor EL otherwise state that they are allowed to rescue a unit from SA.

you keep asking for RAW or rules to be cited but have not done so your self other than to keep saying the same thing with no explanation or reference to back it up .

Yes, I've been quoting one thing over and over. Fortunately it's the only quote that really matters and the only argument against it are people who disagree with the definition of a phrase.

Circle and round comes to mind retort to my post with the same old argument i am off to laugh with my gaming club at the fact people think EL does not work at the end of the Assault phase after SA has been resolved or in your words after SA has never ended

I've never said that - please stop lying. SA ends. It also has a lasting effect. I've said that before.

re your quote of where you have not cited RAW at this stage is not covered by RAW as to your interpretation of at this stage ,rescuing a unit is not covered by RAW saying SA is ongoing is not covered by RAW

You're absolutely right - "at this stage", "rescue" is not covered by the rules. Fortunately that doesn't matter.
I've shown the definitions in plain English. For you to deviate from those definitions would require... I don't know... maybe a rules definition? Something like that anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Stop. Citing. That. Word.

It's a phrase. Seriously. At this stage your help is not needed. Does that mean the very next second your help is needed? No, it means unless something changes your help isn't needed.
SA restricts the changing event to something that specifies it can work. EL does not specify.

You've been proven wrong. Please cite a rule that agrees with you.

Nothing has been proven. Which is why this thread is 10 pages long. You asked for "Proof" that "at this stage" was a single point in time. When you look it up you find that it Does refer to a specific point in time and now you change up and say to stop citing that word.

No. The definition cited does not say that. You're trying to pick a single word in a phrase and define it independent of the rest of the phrase. English doesn't work that way. Context is relevant. Common use phrases are relevant.

You cannot define the word outside the phrase and say "LOL UR WRONG".

I understand your viewpoint Yad. Im addressing those articles outlined by the opponents of Ever Living working as intended.

Also, Ever Living tokens are treated in the same regards as Reanimation Protocol counters. If they are not, then they dont benefit from the effects of the Resurrection Orb (this is the FaQ question your referring to). As they have been FaQed as working with Resurrection Orbs, they too count as Reanimation Protocol counters with more specific rules. When Reanimation Protocols states you remove all counters after a Fallback is initiated. So too are the Everliving tokens removed. *If the token is placed -after- the fall back, it remains.*

On to your point here

Yad wrote:It doesn't. This is a change in the 6th edition. The opposing viewpoint is such that I suppose the very act of placing the EL token after a successful SA would constitute an attempt to 'save' or 'rescue' the unit/model. I don't hold to that viewpoint.

I agree. The token is merely that at this stage. As the unit is dead, its fulfilled the requirements for Sweeping Advances. Your stating that Ever Living 'saves' the models after Sweeping Advances rule has concluded. For those that are arguing that Sweeping Advances' rule continues to the end of the phase in order to fulfill the clause for "no Special rule". We would then roll to see if the model (and soon to be stand-alone unit) gets back up, and if it does. It comes into conflict with the two parts of the rules of Sweeping Advances; The notion it represents that the unit/model may not come back from the Sweeping Advance. The second being that no Special rule may save it. As Ever Living has just now saved the unit, the opposition claims this trumps the rules for Ever Living. However, Basic Versus Advanced kicks in due to the fact that Ever Living allows us to place the model back on the field and Sweeping Advances rule states we may not. We defer to the codex rule on this account, despite the fact that it has conflicted with the rule on two separate occasions.

I see your point good sir. Im just covering the base for the second half of the oppositions arguement. :3

Exactly correct. So something has to change (ie - go to the next step in the process) for your help to be needed.

The next step which is Consolidation.

No. The definition cited does not say that. You're trying to pick a single word in a phrase and define it independent of the rest of the phrase. English doesn't work that way. Context is relevant. Common use phrases are relevant.

Context is very relevant. But your ignoring it. Your own examples of "at this stage" show its a point in time. The very context of GW using that phrase shows that there might be another stage which the models can be rescued. Otherwise they would not have added it.

You cannot define the word outside the phrase and say "LOL UR WRONG".

Much like "You've been proven wrong"? There is no proof here, only debate.

Fragile wrote:

Exactly correct. So something has to change (ie - go to the next step in the process) for your help to be needed.

The next step which is Consolidation.

Which has nothing to do with SA. Remember context? Something has to change with respect to the swept unit to rescue the unit. And SA limits what that something can be.

No. The definition cited does not say that. You're trying to pick a single word in a phrase and define it independent of the rest of the phrase. English doesn't work that way. Context is relevant. Common use phrases are relevant.

Context is very relevant. But your ignoring it. Your own examples of "at this stage" show its a point in time. The very context of GW using that phrase shows that there might be another stage which the models can be rescued. Otherwise they would not have added it.

Its not a point in time. I haven't shown that in any of my examples. It's the beginning of a stage - a stage where a unit cannot be rescued.
And yes, there might be another stage where the models can be rescued. I've never denied that. But there's a restriction on when that might be.

You cannot define the word outside the phrase and say "LOL UR WRONG".

Much like "You've been proven wrong"? There is no proof here, only debate.

Really? I've proven what the phrase means according to plain English. You haven't proven otherwise - you've simply attacked a single word out of context and ignored the phrase it's housed in. That's some excellent debate.

Xzerios wrote:I understand your viewpoint Yad. Im addressing those articles outlined by the opponents of Ever Living working as intended.

Also, Ever Living tokens are treated in the same regards as Reanimation Protocol counters. If they are not, then they dont benefit from the effects of the Resurrection Orb (this is the FaQ question your referring to). As they have been FaQed as working with Resurrection Orbs, they too count as Reanimation Protocol counters with more specific rules. When Reanimation Protocols states you remove all counters after a Fallback is initiated. So too are the Everliving tokens removed. *If the token is placed -after- the fall back, it remains.*

I'm actually going to disagree with you on that one. RP & EL tokens are at times handled the same way, but they are two different rule mechanics. EL, through its own rules and via the FAQ, utilizes the RP rules in very specific instances. Removing EL tokens due to a failed Morale Check is not one of those instances.

-Yad

FAQ clearly show that RP and EL tokens are not removed in the same way.

In the FAQ it says that if an entire unit is wiped out that the ever living models get a roll to revive

The definition of wiped out(I am assuming in context) is: To destroy or be destroyed completely

under sweeping advance it says "The destroyed units are removed as casualties"

So according to the FAQ they do get their EL roll. Or am I missing something?

In the rule itself they do not have any special mention of being immune to SA, however the FAQ clarified that they do get an immunity.

"In the rule itself they do not have any special mention of being immune to SA, however the FAQ clarified that they do get an immunity."

Except the rule for SA specifies otherwise. The FAQ grants a GENERAL allowance for EL models to get back up. SA tells you specifically that the unit MAY NOT get back up unless they have a rule that states otherwise

They do not have a rule that allows that. They do not have a rule that allows them to return to the battle - for them the battle is over.

So even though the FAQ specifically says they do in a situation that meets the requirements, the rulebook overrides it? Unit is destroyed(wiped out) get EL ala FAQ, SA says they dont get to be saved unless specified otherwise.

I guess this is just a matter of accepting FAQs as the rules or not.

Again with not using the word "specifically" correctly

THe FAQ gives a GENERAL ALLOWANCE to return to play. General because All(RfpaaC) >>>>>>>> SA(RfpaaC) - there are more situations where you will be removed as a casualty that are NOT SA than with SA

THe rulebook states your special rule must SPECIFICALLY state an allowance to ignore SA, otherwise you have no permission to return the model to play

In addition you are not reading SA and the FAQ - the faq allows the model to return, SA has a restriction ont he UNIT returning to play.

No conflict, as they are two different instances