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 Tadashi wrote:

 helgrenze wrote:


3) There is no known record of the Japanese having experimented with weaponising Anthrax. There are records that the Brits did and had a weapon ready for depolyment in Germany.

Maybe not...but your bio-weapons tech is based on ours - our scientists were granted amnesty in exchange for the bio-weapons data.

Except that everyone was experimenting with anthrax at the time, as well as other bio agents. I was wrong though, a deeper check showed that the Japanese had tested anthrax as a weapon in Manchuria in the '30s. However, the Germans had a jump on them with their version being used in 1916.
As for U.S. bio tech being based on Japanese experiments, The U.S. started work on bioweapons in 1943 well before the Japanese scientists were brought in. Even before that they had working delivery systems for Ricin.

 helgrenze wrote:

As for U.S. bio tech being based on Japanese experiments, The U.S. started work on bioweapons in 1943 well before the Japanese scientists were brought in. Even before that they had working delivery systems for Ricin.

True...but our bio-weapons data still formed a large part of your and the world's foundation for biotechnology.

TBH, I don't like bio-weapons all that much, preferring nukes instead...but we don't have nukes, and if we are to win in the alternate timeline, we must go all the way...To maximize enemy losses and minimize your own, the basic recipe for victory.

You also have to consider that Yamamoto himself is known to have noted.

In the first six to twelve months of a war with the United States and Great Britain I will run wild and win victory upon victory.
But then, if the war continues after that, I have no expectation of success.
Isoroku Yamamoto

His Timeline started with Pearl Harbor (Dec 7, '41), and barely made the 6 months ending at Midway (June 6, '42).

 helgrenze wrote:

1) Being that the IJN missed the carriers in the attack, they would have gone to the west coast.

Enterprise was too close to Pearl to have escaped unnoticed if the Japanese had lingered in the area. Lexington would have run out even if it stripped it's escorts before it made the West Coast, as she was much deeper in the Pacific. Saratoga was in San Diego.

 helgrenze wrote:

The Pacific is a huge area to search, and Japan used seaplanes to augment their search. Given my previous comment on the Enterprise being "sighted" in what the IJN thought was imposible locations based on their own ships abilities, They would have had a difficult time hunting what were, at the time, three small (less than 10 ships) fleets.

Quite aware of that. Again, though, Enterprise was fairly close, with planes having taken part in the fight with the second wave at Pearl. Wave three quite possibly would have noticed it, and if not them, certainly any ship that was coming into the littoral zone around Hawaii would have. Lexington would have most likely been scuttled, with her escorts trying to meet up with the Asiatic Fleet.

 helgrenze wrote:

2) Plus the Yorktown was dispatched from Norfolk on Dec 16 with a much larger fleet that included several battleships. They would have likely been exiting the Panama Canal at the time of the proposed attack. Something that the Japanese plan did not allow for.

Norfolk to the Canal is a 10 day trip if they hustled and left the slower ships behind. it's a six hour minimum trip for each ship passing through the canal at the time. If, and I grant this is an if, the Japanese fleet, once the heaviest fighting ended, steamed toward the canal to wreck it, they most likely would have caught Yorktown, etc, against the shore, if not still in the Canal.

 helgrenze wrote:

3) There is no known record of the Japanese having experimented with weaponising Anthrax.

That's because the US Army returned to Japan all seized records pertaining to unit 731 in the 1950's. However according to declassified Army documents written after the war, Unit 731 human subjects, many of whom came from the Mukden POW camp and included women and children, “were tied to stakes and protected with helmets and body armor” but “their legs and buttocks were bared and exposed to shrapnel from anthrax bombs exploded yards away.” Wounded thusly, the subjects were untreated but studied closely so as to ascertain how quickly they would die. Documents reveal that none lived longer than a week.

There's also the Congressional Record. Congress held hearings on it in 1986. As well as the Soviet Trial transcripts for the members of Unit 731 that were captured.

BTW:

In 1932 Shirō Ishii started experiments at Zhongma Fortress outside Harbin. It is estimated that by 1940, Unit 731 manufactured over five tons of anthrax for placement into bombshell casings.

The M3 was the name of the 75mm gun the Sherman was using.

The important thing to understand about the Sherman vs Panzer IV discuss is that they are BOTH being upgraded constantly.

Iin 1942 - 1944 the Sherman with a 75mm had NO PROBLEM with a Panzer IV. However in 44 the Panzer 4 was upgraded with more armor bringing it to 80mm armor. The Sherman with a 75mm found these a bigger issue. However the Shermans soon UPGRADED to a 76mm that fixed that problem (and the problem with Tigers and Panthers)

The German tanks were ultimately better than the American tanks. I am NOT saying the American tanks are better. However ultimately the Sherman was equal to a Panzer 4 with the exception of roughly a 1-3 month period in which a Panzer 4 would be upgraded before the Sherman. The last Upgrade the Panzer 4 got was the upgraded armor but by July, this was no longer a factor as the Shermans had responded and for the rest of the war the Sherman stayed equal with the Panzer 4 (not counting Jumbos and E8s which were simply better)

Text removed.



Reds8n

 Tadashi wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:


That's because the US Army returned to Japan all seized records pertaining to unit 731 in the 1950's. However according to declassified Army documents written after the war, Unit 731 human subjects, many of whom came from the Mukden POW camp and included women and children, “were tied to stakes and protected with helmets and body armor” but “their legs and buttocks were bared and exposed to shrapnel from anthrax bombs exploded yards away.” Wounded thusly, the subjects were untreated but studied closely so as to ascertain how quickly they would die. Documents reveal that none lived longer than a week.

There's also the Congressional Record. Congress held hearings on it in 1986.

Deplorable, and certainly inhuman...but science requires sacrifice.

You're the person who was angry at the US firebombing because it killed so many people and yet you're willing to accept these vile experiments carried out by people who i would scarcely consider human?

 LordofHats wrote:

Also, the M3 is the Lee. Not the Sherman. Not sure if typo. Also, depending on what the source for the ballestic penetration is it could be way off. The US vastly overestimated the penetrating power of tank arms, and the Ordnance Department's figures get cited a lot, even today.

You'll noticed the difference in methodology in the two penetrations I site. The US used the flat 90 degree methodology at the time, the Germans used the 30 degree slant test (So, yes, the US test was used for hte US gun, the more difficult German test was used for the German gun). Further, US and British test plates were of inconsistent quality, though the US corrected this flaw later on.

 purplefood wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:


That's because the US Army returned to Japan all seized records pertaining to unit 731 in the 1950's. However according to declassified Army documents written after the war, Unit 731 human subjects, many of whom came from the Mukden POW camp and included women and children, “were tied to stakes and protected with helmets and body armor” but “their legs and buttocks were bared and exposed to shrapnel from anthrax bombs exploded yards away.” Wounded thusly, the subjects were untreated but studied closely so as to ascertain how quickly they would die. Documents reveal that none lived longer than a week.

There's also the Congressional Record. Congress held hearings on it in 1986.

Deplorable, and certainly inhuman...but science requires sacrifice.

You're the person who was angry at the US firebombing because it killed so many people and yet you're willing to accept these vile experiments carried out by people who i would scarcely consider human?

Obviously, if it's Japanese doing the "testing" its cool.. but if its Us, then boo hoo, call the Geneva Conventions!

 purplefood wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:


That's because the US Army returned to Japan all seized records pertaining to unit 731 in the 1950's. However according to declassified Army documents written after the war, Unit 731 human subjects, many of whom came from the Mukden POW camp and included women and children, “were tied to stakes and protected with helmets and body armor” but “their legs and buttocks were bared and exposed to shrapnel from anthrax bombs exploded yards away.” Wounded thusly, the subjects were untreated but studied closely so as to ascertain how quickly they would die. Documents reveal that none lived longer than a week.

There's also the Congressional Record. Congress held hearings on it in 1986.

Deplorable, and certainly inhuman...but science requires sacrifice.

You're the person who was angry at the US firebombing because it killed so many people and yet you're willing to accept these vile experiments carried out by people who i would scarcely consider human?

No, I'm angry because me and my people (I live in the Philippines) have been called out for everything that's happened in WWII, but your thrice-damned leaders never paid for what they did. Well, guess what? This is an alternate timeline - WE WILL WIN, and millions of Americans will die, just as millions of Japanese died. Blood for blood.

No, I'm angry because me and my people (I live in the Philippines) have been called out for everything that's happened in WWII, but your thrice-damned leaders never paid for what they did. Well, guess what? This is an alternate timeline - WE WILL WIN, and millions of Americans will die, just as millions of Japanese died. Blood for blood.

I tried to work myself up on that...couldn't do it...not even close...not even a urge to get riled up...all I cancome up with....."THATS FETHING FUNNY!!!"

Tadashi... Once you can come up with at least ONE sound strategy that could POSSIBLY lead to an Imperial Japanese victory, even in an alternate timeline, then you can say something as dumb as that.



Ohh, and Plot Armor is not a good enough reason for Japan Wins, US loses!!!

And I came EXTREMELY close to to jumping in and getting really pissed.

Guys, stop provoking Tadashi, Tadashi is simply stating opinions and trying to come up with a way the war could have played differently (at least in this thread, I dont know about your other threads)

Tadashi, please cut the anti American bit. A lot of good people died in that war on both sides.

Also the Philippines did win the war.... they were on the American side... The Americans did fight and die to make sure that the Philippines werent annexed after all. I understand not like the American government because they two didnt have the best history but dont hate on the servicemen

 Galdos wrote:
The M3 was the name of the 75mm gun the Sherman was using.

The important thing to understand about the Sherman vs Panzer IV discuss is that they are BOTH being upgraded constantly.

Iin 1942 - 1944 the Sherman with a 75mm had NO PROBLEM with a Panzer IV. However in 44 the Panzer 4 was upgraded with more armor bringing it to 80mm armor. The Sherman with a 75mm found these a bigger issue. However the Shermans soon UPGRADED to a 76mm that fixed that problem (and the problem with Tigers and Panthers)

43-44. The Sherman didn't encounter (very early) Pz4s until Feb '43. Shermans at the beginning of 43 had trouble with the Pz4, and LOTS of trouble with the Pz5 'Panther', due to being undergunned and the cast hulls used in the M4A1 causing spalling. Oh, and the fires.

 Galdos wrote:
Also the Philippines did win the war.... they were on the American side... The Americans did fight and die to make sure that the Philippines werent annexed after all. I understand not like the American government because they two didnt have the best history but dont hate on the servicemen

Its because I'm in the Philippines that I get exposed for everything that happened in war (although this helps mask my half-blood heritage in Japan with sympathy). I don't hate you guys...I don't hate your military...I hate your thrice-damned government and the way it acts like a saint when its anything but.

 Tadashi wrote:

 purplefood wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:


That's because the US Army returned to Japan all seized records pertaining to unit 731 in the 1950's. However according to declassified Army documents written after the war, Unit 731 human subjects, many of whom came from the Mukden POW camp and included women and children, “were tied to stakes and protected with helmets and body armor” but “their legs and buttocks were bared and exposed to shrapnel from anthrax bombs exploded yards away.” Wounded thusly, the subjects were untreated but studied closely so as to ascertain how quickly they would die. Documents reveal that none lived longer than a week.

There's also the Congressional Record. Congress held hearings on it in 1986.

Deplorable, and certainly inhuman...but science requires sacrifice.

You're the person who was angry at the US firebombing because it killed so many people and yet you're willing to accept these vile experiments carried out by people who i would scarcely consider human?

No, I'm angry because me and my people (I live in the Philippines) have been called out for everything that's happened in WWII, but your thrice-damned leaders never paid for what they did. Well, guess what? This is an alternate timeline - WE WILL WIN, and millions of Americans will die, just as millions of Japanese died. Blood for blood.

Just wanna point out I'm British...

 purplefood wrote:



Just wanna point out I'm British...

*Takes a deep breath* Apologies. Got carried away and forgot about the small flag.

Some hate to bring up after 70+ years...seems a little out of place.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Tadashi... Once you can come up with at least ONE sound strategy that could POSSIBLY lead to an Imperial Japanese victory, even in an alternate timeline, then you can say something as dumb as that.

Are you joking? Even a sound strategy won't make up for some of the misinformation and jingoism that happen around here (on all sides).



If you want a strategy that Japan could use that would break the United States? Manipulate the value of real estate, create a bubble, and then pop it for profit, while creating a huge banking scandal that preys on US citizens worst fears about banks, and set up a run on the banks.

OR

Create a fake US raid on a Russian port, preying on Stalin's fears the US was setting him up to stab him in the back.


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 purplefood wrote:

Just wanna point out I'm British...

Don't worry, he's mistaken me for an American too, since the mods still have not fixed that.


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 Jihadin wrote:
Some hate to bring up after 70+ years...seems a little out of place.

Talk to an Irishman about Englishmen. The US really does not have anyone they can truly hate, so most Americans don't really understand how long hate can go on. I mean REALLY go on...

 BaronIveagh wrote:


Create a fake US raid on a Russian port, preying on Stalin's fears the US was setting him up to stab him in the back.

An excellent idea...let the Soviets and Americans destroy each other, and we can just pick up the pieces later.

Yeah, we just end up selling you cheap quality products, that we made in China. America wins

 BaronIveagh wrote:


Talk to an Irishman about Englishmen. The US really does not have anyone they can truly hate, so most Americans don't really understand how long hate can go on. I mean REALLY go on...

Or talk to a Russian/Chinese/Latin American/Middle-Easterner about Americans.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Galdos wrote:
The M3 was the name of the 75mm gun the Sherman was using.

The important thing to understand about the Sherman vs Panzer IV discuss is that they are BOTH being upgraded constantly.

Iin 1942 - 1944 the Sherman with a 75mm had NO PROBLEM with a Panzer IV. However in 44 the Panzer 4 was upgraded with more armor bringing it to 80mm armor. The Sherman with a 75mm found these a bigger issue. However the Shermans soon UPGRADED to a 76mm that fixed that problem (and the problem with Tigers and Panthers)

43-44. The Sherman didn't encounter (very early) Pz4s until Feb '43. Shermans at the beginning of 43 had trouble with the Pz4, and LOTS of trouble with the Pz5 'Panther', due to being undergunned and the cast hulls used in the M4A1 causing spalling. Oh, and the fires.

I mentioned 42 because of Operation Torch was in that year. Thats right the first battle wasnt until 43, I simple mistake on my part.
Shermans did NOT have an issue with the earlier model Panzer IV however, at least I have NEVER encountered a source to say that as every source Ive seen says the exact opposite. The biggest problem was in June of 44 when the uprgaded armor Panzer IVs were taking on the undergunned Shermans. However by July this problem was well on its way to be fixed.
I already said the Fires stopped being an issue when steps were taken to prevent it which occured actually pretty early. Now this is for the Americans, as I typed this I realized other nations used the Sherman also, they may not have used the Wet Ammo Racks or change the engine which meant that the common fire problems were still being recorded, the Americans stopped having that issue pretty quickly

Oh ya the Panther was a far superior tank. I never said anything about that. That doesnt mean the Sherman was a bad tank because the Panther wasnt that common. Compared to the Shermans equivlents and what it was designed to do, it was a good tank, not the best but good. Panzer IV was the best but at the end of the day, I would put my money on the better crew in a heart beat

Fun fact, the Sherman had a better kill rate against Panthers. By that I mean in Panther vs Sherman battles, the Shermans had something like a 1.1 kill ratio (as in for Every 10 Shermans destroyed, 11 Panthers were killed.) This is because in the Bocage, the Shermans performed EXTREMELY well in because of how easy it was to mod the Sherman (Rhinos) and its agility while the Panther performed poorly. However Panthers DESTROYED the British because they were fighting long distances. Panther was better, dont get me wrong, just an interesting fact






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 Tadashi wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:


Talk to an Irishman about Englishmen. The US really does not have anyone they can truly hate, so most Americans don't really understand how long hate can go on. I mean REALLY go on...

Or talk to a Russian/Chinese/Latin American/Middle-Easterner about Americans.

We got the Russians, but thats not hate, just distrust.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tadashi wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:


Create a fake US raid on a Russian port, preying on Stalin's fears the US was setting him up to stab him in the back.

An excellent idea...let the Soviets and Americans destroy each other, and we can just pick up the pieces later.

Ha, that is a good plan

Yeah, the Panther's problem was that it was a long tank and couldnt move as quickly. Its superior range was also mitigated by the Bocage. And from the side the Panther's armor was no better then the Shermans.

 Tadashi wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:


Talk to an Irishman about Englishmen. The US really does not have anyone they can truly hate, so most Americans don't really understand how long hate can go on. I mean REALLY go on...

Or talk to a Russian/Chinese/Latin American/Middle-Easterner about Americans.

Russians don't hate us. There is a bit of distrust but that isn't the same. Overall things aren't all that bad between us.

Chinese don't hate us. Overall things aren't all that bad between us. In fact China and the US are more like to be allies push come to shove thanks to economic ties.

Latin American by and large don't hate us, just as, by and large, we don't hate them.

Middle-East is obliviously complicated at the moment, but not everyone their hates us, and many that do hate everyone else that isn't Muslim.

The Japanese don't hate us, though again it is a long and complicated relationship.

Hell, we've been to war with the UK twice and we're best buds.

Of course there are people in these countries that may, but they are not the majority nor are they representative of the overall populous, just as groups like Westboro make up an obscenely insignificant amount of the overall US makeup, each country has their own marginalized hatemongers.

If you just read agit-prop pamphlets you'll get a pretty skewered perspective on world affairs.

 Galdos wrote:


I mentioned 42 because of Operation Torch was in that year. Thats right the first battle wasnt until 43, I simple mistake on my part.
Shermans did NOT have an issue with the earlier model Panzer IV however, at least I have NEVER encountered a source to say that as every source Ive seen says the exact opposite. The biggest problem was in June of 44 when the uprgaded armor Panzer IVs were taking on the undergunned Shermans. However by July this problem was well on its way to be fixed.

The uparmored Ausf G was produced in 42. The modification I think you mean was the Ausf H which made the glacis plate a single piece. Both gave the Sherman problems, but the G was not deployed to North Africa in significant numbers. The early model still achieved some startling kill ratios (German armor scored 34 losses to 183 kills at Kasserine Pass). One recurring problem was not so much with the tank per se as with the training the crew. US tankers were trained to close and try to hit them at close range or on the side. The problem is that the Pz4 has a much shorter turning radius.

 Galdos wrote:

We got the Russians, but thats not hate, just distrust.

Russian never kidnapped your young children, tortured and brainwashed them.


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 Ahtman wrote:


Latin American by and large don't hate us, just as, by and large, we don't hate them.

I might point out that while they don't actually hate you, many do think you're donkey-caves.

Russian never kidnapped your young children, tortured and brainwashed them.

What? I just meant America as a nation doesnt hate Russia. We kind of dislike them but thats it.

The uparmored Ausf G was produced in 42. The modification I think you mean was the Ausf H which made the glacis plate a single piece. Both gave the Sherman problems, but the G was not deployed to North Africa in significant numbers. The early model still achieved some startling kill ratios (German armor scored 34 losses to 183 kills at Kasserine Pass). One recurring problem was not so much with the tank per se as with the training the crew. US tankers were trained to close and try to hit them at close range or on the side. The problem is that the Pz4 has a much shorter turning radius.

I have to admit I do not know the names of the different Panzer Mods. I just know that the Sherman had no trouble with a version of the Panzer IV with armor in the 50s (refered to as the Panzer 4) but in Normandy Panzer IVs were upgraded with 80mm which the Shermans had issues with.

Your point about the kill ratios doesnt reflect the quality of the tank (my Panther / Sherman example, no one is going to say that the Sherman is even remotely close to the Panther after all) Kasserine Pass was awful because of literally everything. Poor US commanders, poor tactics, poor training, etc...

All I was trying to get at was that the Sherman was not a BAD tank. It was not amazing and the German tanks were as a whole better. But compared with Panzer IVs it was roughly equal, enough so that the crew was the most important thing. It was very good at what is was designed to do and performed fairly well. It however had a few key opponents that that made it known for being a bad tank unfairly. The ease of which an 88mm could destroy a Sherman and the fact that 88s were fairly common (though the Tiger was rare, and the Panther was a 7...5? problably a 76mm, I dont remember, 76 makes more sense. The AA gun was pretty damn common) causes the Sherman to get this rep of being a bad tank.

So yeah, once again, in case it was missed - we absolutely destroyed the Axis in the field of cryptography. The best the germans did, not the japanese note - was break one of our shipping cyphers. Between the US and the UK, we broke the highest level military communications of the Germans and the Japanese. All things being equal - that gives us a huge advantage. But things weren't equal. Say the Japanese developed a fleet of awesome submarine carriers. We would know where they were and what they were doing whenever they radioed in.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
I might point out that while they don't actually hate you, many do think you're donkey-caves.

Most people think most other people are donkey-caves. The general trend is that Americans are seen as friendly and generous, but also arrogant and loud. At least that is what I have been told repeatedly by people from different countries. If the US could tone the attitude down a bit it would be much more liked. Still, that isn't the same as being hated. Each country has stereotypes associated with it, both good and bad, but not to many have serious hate, though those do exist.

 Bromsy wrote:
So yeah, once again, in case it was missed - we absolutely destroyed the Axis in the field of cryptography. The best the germans did, not the japanese note - was break one of our shipping cyphers. Between the US and the UK, we broke the highest level military communications of the Germans and the Japanese. All things being equal - that gives us a huge advantage. But things weren't equal. Say the Japanese developed a fleet of awesome submarine carriers. We would know where they were and what they were doing whenever they radioed in.

AFAIK We were also winning on the espionage front since the Abwehr were pretty much stopped from operating and when they did get stuff it was from a double agent so it was bad information.
I have no knowledge concerning Japanese intelligence operations...