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 Ahtman wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:


Talk to an Irishman about Englishmen. The US really does not have anyone they can truly hate, so most Americans don't really understand how long hate can go on. I mean REALLY go on...

Or talk to a Russian/Chinese/Latin American/Middle-Easterner about Americans.

Russians don't hate us. There is a bit of distrust but that isn't the same. Overall things aren't all that bad between us.

Chinese don't hate us. Overall things aren't all that bad between us. In fact China and the US are more like to be allies push come to shove thanks to economic ties.

Latin American by and large don't hate us, just as, by and large, we don't hate them.

Middle-East is obliviously complicated at the moment, but not everyone their hates us, and many that do hate everyone else that isn't Muslim.

Not to mention often the Muslims hate each other even more then they hate westerners.

 Ahtman wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:
I might point out that while they don't actually hate you, many do think you're donkey-caves.

Most people think most other people are donkey-caves. The general trend is that Americans are seen as friendly and generous, but also arrogant and loud. At least that is what I have been told repeatedly by people from different countries. If the US could tone the attitude down a bit it would be much more liked. Still, that isn't the same as being hated. Each country has stereotypes associated with it, both good and bad, but not to many have serious hate, though those do exist.

People are always gonna hate the dude on top. Since America has been winning at the world for like 60 of the last 70 years.... uh what's that meme...

 Galdos wrote:
Panther was a 7...5? problably a 76mm, I dont remember, 76 makes more sense. The AA gun was pretty damn common) causes the Sherman to get this rep of being a bad tank.

Actually the Panther was a 7.5 cm KwK 42. Early variants of the M50 Super Sherman also used this gun, as it was staggeringly superior to the M3. Things look like Fireflies.

 purplefood wrote:

 Bromsy wrote:
So yeah, once again, in case it was missed - we absolutely destroyed the Axis in the field of cryptography. The best the germans did, not the japanese note - was break one of our shipping cyphers. Between the US and the UK, we broke the highest level military communications of the Germans and the Japanese. All things being equal - that gives us a huge advantage. But things weren't equal. Say the Japanese developed a fleet of awesome submarine carriers. We would know where they were and what they were doing whenever they radioed in.

AFAIK We were also winning on the espionage front since the Abwehr were pretty much stopped from operating and when they did get stuff it was from a double agent so it was bad information.
I have no knowledge concerning Japanese intelligence operations...

Not to mention, we didn't rely solely on cryptographic cyphers.. we also utilized various forms of spoken code (see here, Navajo Code Talkers)

Also, the British Intelligence arm taught a HUGE amount of skills and information to the fledgling OSS, so in the Intel. front, it was truly an Allied effort.

 purplefood wrote:
We were also winning on the espionage front since the Abwehr were pretty much stopped from operating and when they did get stuff it was from a double agent so it was bad information.
I have no knowledge concerning Japanese intelligence operations...

Way to forget Operation Mountain where they set up a fake resistance group and got British Intelligence to drop them supplies and intel.v and Abwher were stopped more by infighting with the SS then they were by British Intelligence.

IIRC a lot of intelligence operations in Tokyo were run through the Russian embassy. The England did a lot of good decryption. The US usually just captured someone's decryption machine.

 BaronIveagh wrote:


IIRC a lot of intelligence operations in Tokyo were run through the Russian embassy. The England did a lot of good decryption. The US usually just captured someone's decryption machine.

Yes, well, if we move fast and capture Naval Intelligence HQ in Hawaii, we can capture the US ciphers...not to mention discover they've broken our codes...in which case we'll just change our codes.

Damn, my gut told me it was a 75mm

All right thanks for the correction

 Tadashi wrote:

Yes, well, if we move fast and capture Naval Intelligence HQ in Hawaii, we can capture the US ciphers...not to mention discover they've broken our codes...in which case we'll just change our codes.

The US would have changed it's codes right away, but, yeah, the cat would have been out of the bag as far as the US and England reading Japanese codes.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 helgrenze wrote:

1) Being that the IJN missed the carriers in the attack, they would have gone to the west coast.

Enterprise was too close to Pearl to have escaped unnoticed if the Japanese had lingered in the area. Lexington would have run out even if it stripped it's escorts before it made the West Coast, as she was much deeper in the Pacific. Saratoga was in San Diego.

They missed the ship and its fleet due to varying points that include direction of the attack and departure. Entreprise was arriving from the south, the attack was from the east and they departed to the northwest. They simply did not look for incoming ships in any direction.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 helgrenze wrote:

The Pacific is a huge area to search, and Japan used seaplanes to augment their search. Given my previous comment on the Enterprise being "sighted" in what the IJN thought was imposible locations based on their own ships abilities, They would have had a difficult time hunting what were, at the time, three small (less than 10 ships) fleets.

Quite aware of that. Again, though, Enterprise was fairly close, with planes having taken part in the fight with the second wave at Pearl. Wave three quite possibly would have noticed it, and if not them, certainly any ship that was coming into the littoral zone around Hawaii would have. Lexington would have most likely been scuttled, with her escorts trying to meet up with the Asiatic Fleet.

The Lex was enroute to Midway, The Saratoga was in San Diego, Meaning they were close enough to Pearl to help repulse any invasion. Saratoga was escorted by a troop ship loaded with Marines.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 helgrenze wrote:

2) Plus the Yorktown was dispatched from Norfolk on Dec 16 with a much larger fleet that included several battleships. They would have likely been exiting the Panama Canal at the time of the proposed attack. Something that the Japanese plan did not allow for.

Norfolk to the Canal is a 10 day trip if they hustled and left the slower ships behind. it's a six hour minimum trip for each ship passing through the canal at the time. If, and I grant this is an if, the Japanese fleet, once the heaviest fighting ended, steamed toward the canal to wreck it, they most likely would have caught Yorktown, etc, against the shore, if not still in the Canal.

Don't know where you got that number..... Japanese navy maybe.... Transit time from Norfolk to Colon at flank speed of the fleet was(is) @3 days with one day transit on the canal. The transit time at the same speeds from Hawaii to Balboa (pacific side of the Canal) was(is) @10 days. An invasion of Hawaii would have taken at least a week before the IJN could use the ports to refuel. Thus the US would have had 4 carrier fleets in the Pacific before the Japanese could consolidate and relaunch their fleet for an attack on the Canal or any other port.

 Tadashi wrote:
Deplorable, and certainly inhuman...but science requires sacrifice....

This is fething disgusting. Honestly, if someone was here telling us that the Holocaust was justified, I'd hope we'd ban him. Science doesn't require vivisections and inoculation of deadly bacterias to children.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 purplefood wrote:
We were also winning on the espionage front since the Abwehr were pretty much stopped from operating and when they did get stuff it was from a double agent so it was bad information.
I have no knowledge concerning Japanese intelligence operations...

Way to forget Operation Mountain where they set up a fake resistance group and got British Intelligence to drop them supplies and intel.v and Abwher were stopped more by infighting with the SS then they were by British Intelligence.

IIRC a lot of intelligence operations in Tokyo were run through the Russian embassy. The England did a lot of good decryption. The US usually just captured someone's decryption machine.

Operation Mountain?
Never heard of it but it looks nicely done.
Though Operation Midas, getting a double agent to pay for a 'network of spies' in Britain when in reality the money funded the Double Cross Committee for the entire war. Now that seems to be somewhat more sneaky...

 helgrenze wrote:

They missed the ship and its fleet due to varying points that include direction of the attack and departure. Entreprise was arriving from the south, the attack was from the east and they departed to the northwest. They simply did not look for incoming ships in any direction.

This does... nothing to disprove my point. The Japanese had noticed carrier based aircraft turn up during the last wave (due to the pilots loudly broadcasting who they were from in an effort not to be shot down by AA), and the reasoning of one of the carrier captains who pushed for a third wave was that his pilots told him they had a pretty good idea where the carriers were.

 helgrenze wrote:

The Lex was enroute to Midway, The Saratoga was in San Diego, Meaning they were close enough to Pearl to help repulse any invasion. Saratoga was escorted by a troop ship loaded with Marines.

At least 3, preferably 9 divisions of Marines? Otherwise, not too useful.

 helgrenze wrote:

Don't know where you got that number..... Japanese navy maybe.... Transit time from Norfolk to Colon at flank speed of the fleet was(is) @3 days with one day transit on the canal.

Logs of the USS Yorktown when she made that same transit in 1939 (granted, she did it in a week, the USS Hornet took longer for some reason, so I averaged to two), as well as the 1935 US Navy Figures comparing transit time between Norfolk to Valparaiso going through the canal or around the Horn, and average speed the Japanese Navy managed en route to Midway.

At flank speed, maybe, but you would have to abandon a lot of your support ships.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

This is fething disgusting. Honestly, if someone was here telling us that the Holocaust was justified, I'd hope we'd ban him. Science doesn't require vivisections and inoculation of deadly bacterias to children.

Yeah, it was pretty rough. Japan was hardly alone though. The US used the same excuse for some pretty horrific gak they did in Guatemala.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Don't know where you got that number..... Japanese navy maybe.... Transit time from Norfolk to Colon at flank speed of the fleet was(is) @3 days with one day transit on the canal.

Logs of the USS Yorktown when she made that same transit in 1939 (granted, she did it in a week, the USS Hornet took longer for some reason, so I averaged to two), as well as the 1935 US Navy Figures comparing transit time between Norfolk to Valparaiso going through the canal or around the Horn, and average speed the Japanese Navy managed en route to Midway.

At flank speed, maybe, but you would have to abandon a lot of your support ships.

Actually didn't mean Flank speed which still would not outrun the escort ships since the carrier was one of the slowest (@32k) and the transit time would drop to 2 days plus 1 for the canal. However, given a standard cruising speed of 20 knots the transit time is actually @3 days. With similar speeds from the Hawaii the transit time is still @10 days. Hawaii to San Diego is @7 days.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

This is fething disgusting. Honestly, if someone was here telling us that the Holocaust was justified, I'd hope we'd ban him. Science doesn't require vivisections and inoculation of deadly bacterias to children.

Yeah, it was pretty rough. Japan was hardly alone though. The US used the same excuse for some pretty horrific gak they did in Guatemala.

Not claiming any type of moral highground, just saying that in any decent forum, someone playing the apologist for Holocaust-level atrocities should be outright banned.

Thread finished due to monumental crassness and stupidity.