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American carriers had wooden decks until the close of the war. It's why The Divine Wind enjoyed such a terrifying success against the American fleet. Not that advanced at all Fraz, they just made a lot of them quickly.

 Melissia wrote:
You know, if you wanted to talk about Konpeki no Kantai, you could have just used the anime thread.

But he wanted to talk about it like it was real.

 Tadashi wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:
Hence the professionals saying it as not impossible, but very difficult to achieve in reality

I'd question the credentials of anyone simultaneously claiming these to be possible in any reality and to be 'professional.'

They also presented a different strategy: Japan stays out of the Atlantic, but still annihilates Pearl Harbor and the Panama Canal - regardless of Australia and the West Coast, a long-distance war in such a situation (especially with Japan entrenched across the West Pacific) would have been hopeless.

Why? Pearl Harbor was a port. US manufacturing was not at Pearl Harbor. Everything there could have been rebuilt. Indeed the Pacific Fleet had been stationed in California shortly before WWII started.

It's why The Divine Wind enjoyed such a terrifying success against the American fleet. Not that advanced at all Fraz, they just made a lot of them quickly.

Success is kind of blowing it out of proportion. Only between 11-13% of planes engaged in Kamikazi attacks actually hit a target. Most of the time, the target just suffered surface damage and went back to port for repairs. The Kamikazi was terrifying but ultimately useless endeavor of desperation (much like Germany's V weapons). It achieved very little for Japan in WWII.

 LordofHats wrote:


The Pacific War was hopeless for Japan from the get go. They were never going to win.

Tthe old man just told the only way Japan could have forced the Allies to accept a negotiated peace was to destroy both Pearl Harbor and the Panama Canal. He told me it was part of multiple simulations they studied in the PMA as to how Japan could have won the war.

Troll Post: I use a CCS-class Battlecruiser or a Forerunner Dreadnought and glass North America and Western Europe...the End.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
American carriers had wooden decks until the close of the war. It's why The Divine Wind enjoyed such a terrifying success against the American fleet. Not that advanced at all Fraz, they just made a lot of them quickly.

Advanced radar. Advanced fire control systems. Most importantly, really really damn big. Compare one to all the aircraft carried by all British carriers in WWII and its a fair fight (ok not fair, our planes would have blown your out of the sky in about 18 seconds-biplanes? Seriously???)
90- 100 aircraft each. The Big E alone averaged 85.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essex_class_aircraft_carrier

 Frazzled wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
American carriers had wooden decks until the close of the war. It's why The Divine Wind enjoyed such a terrifying success against the American fleet. Not that advanced at all Fraz, they just made a lot of them quickly.

Advanced radar. Advanced fire control systems. Most importantly, really really damn big. Compare one to all the aircraft carried by all British carriers in WWII and its a fair fight (ok not fair, our planes would have blown your out of the sky in about 18 seconds-biplanes? Seriously???)

The bi-planes confuse people...

 Tadashi wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:


The Pacific War was hopeless for Japan from the get go. They were never going to win.

Tthe old man just told the only way Japan could have forced the Allies to accept a negotiated peace was to destroy both Pearl Harbor and the Panama Canal. He told me it was part of multiple simulations they studied in the PMA as to how Japan could have won the war.

Troll Post: I use a CCS-class Battlecruiser or a Forerunner Dreadnought and glass North America and Western Europe...the End.

That would have just ticked us off more. It would have delayed the hurricane but made it more intense as the time delay would have given us time to build more nukes. Japan is eternally happy they didn't get that lucky.

 Tadashi wrote:
He told me it was part of multiple simulations they studied in the PMA as to how Japan could have won the war.

I'm guess they did that ages ago, cause I can tell you right now that 1 Japan would have never destroyed the Panama canal. it was too vital to their trade. 2 The US wouldn't have needed it anyway. San Diego was one of the biggest Naval dockyards in the world. 3 How would Japan even achieve that goal? The Panama canal is thousands of miles away! Their plan to attack Pearl Harbor was probably about 3/5 the distance and hit numerous problems. They probably didn't even have the oil to get there.

 purplefood wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
American carriers had wooden decks until the close of the war. It's why The Divine Wind enjoyed such a terrifying success against the American fleet. Not that advanced at all Fraz, they just made a lot of them quickly.

Advanced radar. Advanced fire control systems. Most importantly, really really damn big. Compare one to all the aircraft carried by all British carriers in WWII and its a fair fight (ok not fair, our planes would have blown your out of the sky in about 18 seconds-biplanes? Seriously???)

The bi-planes confuse people...

The Bismark's gunenrs were fuddled becase they thought they had gone into some sort of time warp.
Kapitan we are being attacked by...biplanes.
Er, Hanz you've been hitting the Schnapps again haven't you...
BOOM

 Frazzled wrote:

 purplefood wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
American carriers had wooden decks until the close of the war. It's why The Divine Wind enjoyed such a terrifying success against the American fleet. Not that advanced at all Fraz, they just made a lot of them quickly.

Advanced radar. Advanced fire control systems. Most importantly, really really damn big. Compare one to all the aircraft carried by all British carriers in WWII and its a fair fight (ok not fair, our planes would have blown your out of the sky in about 18 seconds-biplanes? Seriously???)

The bi-planes confuse people...

The Bismark's gunenrs were fuddled becase they thought they had gone into some sort of time warp.
Kapitan we are being attacked by...biplanes.
Er, Hanz you've been hitting the Schnapps again haven't you...
BOOM

Exactly as planned.

 LordofHats wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:
He told me it was part of multiple simulations they studied in the PMA as to how Japan could have won the war.

I'm guess they did that ages ago, cause I can tell you right now that 1 Japan would have never destroyed the Panama canal. it was too vital to their trade. 2 The US wouldn't have needed it anyway. San Diego was one of the biggest Naval dockyards in the world. 3 How would Japan even achieve that goal? The Panama canal is thousands of miles away! Their plan to attack Pearl Harbor was probably about 3/5 the distance and hit numerous problems. They probably didn't even have the oil to get there.

Don't look at me for complete transcripts of those simulations - I asked, but they refused to get me any. I'm a material scientist in training, not a soldier - the closest I'm getting to a battlefield is to develop weapons to maximize the enemy's losses and to minimize friendly casualties.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:


The Pacific War was hopeless for Japan from the get go. They were never going to win.

Tthe old man just told the only way Japan could have forced the Allies to accept a negotiated peace was to destroy both Pearl Harbor and the Panama Canal. He told me it was part of multiple simulations they studied in the PMA as to how Japan could have won the war.

Troll Post: I use a CCS-class Battlecruiser or a Forerunner Dreadnought and glass North America and Western Europe...the End.

That would have just ticked us off more. It would have delayed the hurricane but made it more intense as the time delay would have given us time to build more nukes. Japan is eternally happy they didn't get that lucky.

If it was the simulations I have no idea...if its about the troll post, you would never get the chance, seeing as the entire continent has been reduced to a blasted hellscape.

 purplefood wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 purplefood wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
American carriers had wooden decks until the close of the war. It's why The Divine Wind enjoyed such a terrifying success against the American fleet. Not that advanced at all Fraz, they just made a lot of them quickly.

Advanced radar. Advanced fire control systems. Most importantly, really really damn big. Compare one to all the aircraft carried by all British carriers in WWII and its a fair fight (ok not fair, our planes would have blown your out of the sky in about 18 seconds-biplanes? Seriously???)

The bi-planes confuse people...

The Bismark's gunenrs were fuddled becase they thought they had gone into some sort of time warp.
Kapitan we are being attacked by...biplanes.
Er, Hanz you've been hitting the Schnapps again haven't you...
BOOM

Exactly as planned.

Its my understanding if that had failed, they had equipped the Third Queen's Lancers with little dingies and were going to charge Bismark in proper British fashion.
Britain keeping the world safe through manly facial hair for four centuries.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tadashi wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:
He told me it was part of multiple simulations they studied in the PMA as to how Japan could have won the war.

I'm guess they did that ages ago, cause I can tell you right now that 1 Japan would have never destroyed the Panama canal. it was too vital to their trade. 2 The US wouldn't have needed it anyway. San Diego was one of the biggest Naval dockyards in the world. 3 How would Japan even achieve that goal? The Panama canal is thousands of miles away! Their plan to attack Pearl Harbor was probably about 3/5 the distance and hit numerous problems. They probably didn't even have the oil to get there.

Don't look at me for complete transcripts of those simulations - I asked, but they refused to get me any. I'm a material scientist in training, not a soldier - the closest I'm getting to a battlefield is to develop weapons to maximize the enemy's losses and to minimize friendly casualties.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:


The Pacific War was hopeless for Japan from the get go. They were never going to win.

Tthe old man just told the only way Japan could have forced the Allies to accept a negotiated peace was to destroy both Pearl Harbor and the Panama Canal. He told me it was part of multiple simulations they studied in the PMA as to how Japan could have won the war.

Troll Post: I use a CCS-class Battlecruiser or a Forerunner Dreadnought and glass North America and Western Europe...the End.

That would have just ticked us off more. It would have delayed the hurricane but made it more intense as the time delay would have given us time to build more nukes. Japan is eternally happy they didn't get that lucky.

If it was the simulations I have no idea...if its about the troll post, you would never get the chance, seeing as the entire continent has been reduced to a blasted hellscape.

By what? Sushi? Dude they brought a sword to a nuke fight and got hammered. Are you alleging they would have some sort of prolonged 8th/Royal Air Force type bombing campaign from Japan to the West Coast? besides the whole, impossible distance thing have you seen the kill rates US fighters did to Japanese planes? ? ?

 Tadashi wrote:
@Frazzled Well, seeing as professional and career soldiers consider it as feasible, I'd say everything you said is moot.

What professionals? Name 1 that would put a nuclear sub in Japan's fleet pre-1950s, please.

While this is an interesting idea for a topic, you stating that a "professional and career" soldier considers anything I've seen you say as feasible turns this from something fun into something sad.

I'm out.

Frazzled you got to chill. This is based off of a show written by (if a previous poster is right) a very pro-Japanese fella who probably wished that they had access to this stuff, that they had won.

I'm sure there are Yanks who have written shows/books about the South having won, for example. Its just fantasy

 Frazzled wrote:


By what? Sushi? Dude they brought a sword to a nuke fight and got hammered. Are you alleging they would have some sort of prolonged 8th/Royal Air Force type bombing campaign from Japan to the West Coast? besides the whole, impossible distance thing have you seen the kill rates US fighters did to Japanese planes? ? ?

I have no idea regarding the simulations, as I said, I don't have the transcripts. And my troll post involved a CCS-class Battlecruiser/Forerunner Dreadnought - let's see how primitive carriers handle a plasma bombardment from orbit.

 kronk wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:
@Frazzled Well, seeing as professional and career soldiers consider it as feasible, I'd say everything you said is moot.

What professionals? Name 1 that would put a nuclear sub in Japan's fleet pre-1950s, please.

While this is an interesting idea for a topic, you stating that a "professional and career" soldier considers anything I've seen you say as feasible turns this from something fun into something sad.

I'm out.

They didn't...they said Japan could have won, but in a different manner than presented.

 Tadashi wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:


And my troll post involved a CCS-class Battlecruiser/Forerunner Dreadnought - let's see how your primitive carriers handle a plasma bombardment from orbit.

A what?

Thats ok. Superman would take care fo the situation. He don't cotton to no plasma bombardments on Hawaii. No sirree not on his watch.

 Tadashi wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:


By what? Sushi? Dude they brought a sword to a nuke fight and got hammered. Are you alleging they would have some sort of prolonged 8th/Royal Air Force type bombing campaign from Japan to the West Coast? besides the whole, impossible distance thing have you seen the kill rates US fighters did to Japanese planes? ? ?

I have no idea regarding the simulations, as I said, I don't have the transcripts. And my troll post involved a CCS-class Battlecruiser/Forerunner Dreadnought - let's see how primitive carriers handle a plasma bombardment from orbit.

Well know this is just silly...

 Frazzled wrote:


A what?

Thats ok. Superman would take care fo the situation. He don't cotton to no plasma bombardments on Hawaii. No sirree not on his watch.

Slipspace prison...

 purplefood wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:


By what? Sushi? Dude they brought a sword to a nuke fight and got hammered. Are you alleging they would have some sort of prolonged 8th/Royal Air Force type bombing campaign from Japan to the West Coast? besides the whole, impossible distance thing have you seen the kill rates US fighters did to Japanese planes? ? ?

I have no idea regarding the simulations, as I said, I don't have the transcripts. And my troll post involved a CCS-class Battlecruiser/Forerunner Dreadnought - let's see how primitive carriers handle a plasma bombardment from orbit.

Well know this is just silly...

Britain is prepared.
Deep under Picaddily circus, is a bunker. In that bunker is a weapon btoh ancient and terrifying. Its so terrifying that when Churchill first learned of it, he vetoed its use against even the hated Nazis. It was...

The Haggis Missile.

 Tadashi wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:


By what? Sushi? Dude they brought a sword to a nuke fight and got hammered. Are you alleging they would have some sort of prolonged 8th/Royal Air Force type bombing campaign from Japan to the West Coast? besides the whole, impossible distance thing have you seen the kill rates US fighters did to Japanese planes? ? ?

I have no idea regarding the simulations, as I said, I don't have the transcripts. And my troll post involved a CCS-class Battlecruiser/Forerunner Dreadnought - let's see how primitive carriers handle a plasma bombardment from orbit.

 kronk wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:
@Frazzled Well, seeing as professional and career soldiers consider it as feasible, I'd say everything you said is moot.

What professionals? Name 1 that would put a nuclear sub in Japan's fleet pre-1950s, please.

While this is an interesting idea for a topic, you stating that a "professional and career" soldier considers anything I've seen you say as feasible turns this from something fun into something sad.

I'm out.

They didn't...they said Japan could have won, but in a different manner than presented.

Who's this they? "Professional Soldiers"?

What is this silliness?

I don't even need to debate how ridiculously impossible this is. Honestly, you and your friends have an equal chance discovering immortality as Japan did winning that war. Especially WITHOUT the nazis...which doesn't seem to be what this thread is actually about at all.

Hell so far we're mostly focusing on their Navy, which was by all rights pretty good (maybe best in the world in 1936), but their army was... So, so bad. Woefully under equipped, poorly trained, an asinine battle doctrine, and wholley incapable of waging a modern war at the time.

Even their navy had a lot of problems, namely that they relied far too much of precisely timed operations that were just infeasible in actual battle conditions.

Most of this wasn't really considered until the 1970's, so maybe, just maybe, some random military think tank might have had some outlandish scenario ages ago and thought it might have worked. But today we know better.

Again I think the best way for Japan to win is to not play. If Japan either
1) seizes Dutch and British assets without attacking the US; or
2) withdraws from China and thus gets the oil embargo lifted.

The interesting question is, without a direct Japanese attack, would the US have declared war on Japan? I think not baby puppy. if they and Japan then beat us in several engagements without Germany declaring war we might have negotiated something.

We would have. We were extremely suspicious of Japanese expansion in the 30's. Taking Dutch East India would have been seen as a direct threat to the Phillipines (and indeed, Japan did not believe they could control South East Asia so long as the US controlled those islands). Once Japan attacked into the South Pacific, we would have declared war, especially with FDR just looking for a reason to get into WWII.

 LordofHats wrote:
We would have. We were extremely suspicious of Japanese expansion in the 30's. Taking Dutch East India would have been seen as a direct threat to the Phillipines (and indeed, Japan did not believe they could control South East Asia so long as the US controlled those islands). Once Japan attacked into the South Pacific, we would have declared war, especially with FDR just looking for a reason to get into WWII.

I disagree strongly. FDR wanted a shooting war with Germany. He didn't want one with Japan. Even after Pearl Harbor he treated it as a horrific sideshow to 'the real fight.' If Germany didn't declare war, what support would he get in a highly isolationist USA, of whom 2/3 probably couldn't pin Japan on a map?

Alternate History thread...and you want World War 2 without nazis...

Anyone up for command and conquer?

 Jihadin wrote:
Read up on Harry Turtledove

I just got my copy of Guns of the South SIGNED by the man himself at A-Kon 23 this summer. I had a fanboy moment I admit.

My favorite alternate history scenarios usually stem from singular moments we know could have changed history completely. For example, a British Tommy in WW1 has a young Adolf Hitler dead to rights and let him live. The world would have changed pretty significantly. There still most likely would have been a second major war in Europe but the potential for how that might be changed is phenomenal.

I think historically the Nazis were in India and Mongolia as part of Himmler's obsession with proof of the myth of the aryan ubermensch/Lost Ark/relics in general. That type of Nazi raiding went on for their entire span of power.

I would also question the credentials of any military officer who hails from a counrty who's big military claim to fame is being curb stomped by one John J. Pershing....perhaps ya heard of him?

If I may star with Japan's aircraft....the Zero started the war without a sealed fuel tank. This means that when it got into a fight with us forces, it was out climbed and out dived, its only advantage was speed and maneuverability. Much of imperial japans air forces was like this....then we introduced some of the best fighters ever, the corsair, hell cats, and lightnings.


The only way I can conceive of The IJN winning in the pacific is that the Kamikazis were successful AND their plan was to disable a us ship enough that japanese marines could board and take over the disabled vessels....even then, this has to be beyond imaginably successful to win a war by stealing the weapons of your enemies enough times to give yourself the advantage.

Zero had no armor.....

Interestingly enough, even the Japanese Commanders at the time knew they'd never have a hope in hell of beating/invading the US and said so. America is simply too big.

Their goal was essentially to unleash a lightning attack on all available US forces, and cripple any ability to fight back/launch a counter-attack locally, whilst occupying and fortifying as many islands and as much land as possible. It was hoped then that by looking big and scary, and making it plain the Americans would take tremendous losses, the US would simply write off the whole affair as too much bother, and come to an appropriate peace treaty.

Which actually, judging from a historical perspective, wasn't such an outlandish idea as it might be today. America was just one big boy in a world of big boys (The British Empire, the Nazi's, the Soviets, etc), and bar WW1, most conflicts to date then had ended by one side gaining an obvious advantage, and the other side conceding.

What they didn't count on was;
a) not succeeding in wiping out the American fleet at pearl harbour, and
b) just how bloodyminded and patriotic Americans are, and
c) how small the odds were of the British allowing Hitler's ally to have free run of that part of the world once he was gone.