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It's nice to go to the Odd Tournament and see Ork Deff Dreads or Storm-Eagles etc etc.

Deff Dreads are in the Ork Codex.

Guessing maybe this is why people laugh when people say "It's because you cannot identify the stuff from forgeworld!" When people barely know whats in each others codex's.

 RiTides wrote:
Been lurking this thread, and it's disappointing how some (not the TOs) continue to demand near universal acceptance of FW, as if it were the Tau codex.

Variety in events is good. Enjoy the events that allow FW, but don't demand that all match your view. It's up to the TO... and many have posted why they allow it.

There are reasons not to, and both sides have been exhausted by now... the conversation is starting to go in circles. Live and let live!

/goes to browse absurdly priced, but beautiful, Horus Heresy FW pics

I was thinking the same thing. I dont see this discussion going anywhere further. The pro FW people will likely never have an arguement that the anti FW people will accept and vice versa. As long as tournaments are ran by independant 3rd parties, FW will NEVER be 100% allowed. Even if GW makes FW completely 100% legal in all games no matter what, a TO will still be able to disallow FW units.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

It's nice to go to the Odd Tournament and see Ork Deff Dreads or Storm-Eagles etc etc.

Deff Dreads are in the Ork Codex.

Guessing maybe this is why people laugh when people say "It's because you cannot identify the stuff from forgeworld!" When people barely know whats in each others codex's.

Sorry I meant MEGA DREAD. mea culpa.

WAAC players make up a good portion of Tourney Play,

I think this is a misconception about "tournament" and "competive" play.

The reality, from my experiences is most the people are just looking at a tourney as an opportunity to get a lot of games in on a weekend, hang out with people they don't see all that often and scratch that hobby itch that for whatever reason doesn't get scratched near as often anymore. Be it work or family obligations.

That is the majority and just like your local gaming group or 40k league at your LGS .. you got about the same mix of guys at these events.

The difference is think about your own local gaming group ... if you have 1 very vocal competitive player out of 10 at your LGS he is less of issue because you all know him and while he might come off as a jerk or an over competitive prick you know the real guy and he's ok. because he's your over competitive jerk.... at AdeptiCon .. you may get 180 of that guy and you don't know them all that well because in reality just like the one at your store ... they are not that bad of guys ...: ) What can get overlooked is the other 1600+ players as those 180 like to make alot of noise.

Anyways .. best a topic discussed in another thread .. : )

It's hard to look at what Forgeworld is doing .. and not want to see it on the table. But it is clear that it's up to the TO's and up to those that want to support FW use to attend events and formats that allow it.

Competitive doesn't mean WAAC. Win at Any Cost is the type of person who bends the rules all the time, trys to force the issue of being silly and then trying to be concilliatory by saying things like "Well lets roll for it, 4+ I'm right" even though their contention is utter nonsense.

I'm a fair player, I like competitive play, but some people try to claim silly things for an advantage and if you don't have a Very good knowledge of the rules and all the Codexes you may not have the confidence or even the time to call them out on it.

This is what WAAC players prey on, 50% of the time they get slapped down, 50% of the time they get away with it. Competitive is not the same as WAAC. A good example was a player who forgot to roll for reserves but moved a unit. I was pretty straight with him, saying he had made a mistake and I gave him a chance to put the unit back and start his turn again, he looked confused didn't see what I was driving at and then just continued with a 2nd unit move. When he realised his mistake he then said "I'm going to roll for Reserves now", er no. He got really crappy about it, I had already given him an out, he failed to take it, then tried to get the tournament organisers involved and then proceeded to sulk throughtout the game and had the audacity to blame me for him being 6th in the results and not higher.

Agreed WAAC does not equal competitive. My point was they are small percentage of the field in my experience.

Muwhe- Really agreed with your above post!

And when I said I was disappointed, it's because the TOs posting here aren't pushing for every event to allow FW, just the ones that want to. No matter how reasonable the reasons are for its inclusion, or the counters to arguments against it, it is still opponent (i.e. TO!) permission required.

To keep saying that it is like not allowing the Tau codex and ignoring reality there a bit is what I thought was disappointing.

As I said earlier- pro-FW inclusion folks saying anti-FW ones are scared, inexperienced, etc just leads to the opposite label being thrown: that pro-FW folks are WAAC. Neither is necessarily true, as muwhe says!! Labels don't help anything.

What is true is that, unlike the Tau codex, an opponent (or TO) must allow FW to be used in an event. That's why we had this thread. But to use labels (on either side) does not advance the discussion. Again, highly agree with muwhe's post above!

Even the part about wanting to see Some FW in more tournaments . But as kronk said earlier, it bothers me when people demand all events do this, instead of rightfully leaving it up to the TO. Remember, variety in events is a good thing!

 Vaktathi wrote:
Except their books are published at GW headquarters, their copyright and publisher is not "Forgeworld" but very specifically "Games Workshop". When you buy a Forgeworld model, it's copyright symbol says Games Workshop, not Forgeworld. The distinction you are making here is one based on GW's internal corporate structure, not one based on the the rules or the company's intent.

I'd like to know what the company's real "intent" is then, because the whole reason this argument keeps coming up is because they refuse to be clear about it. Even that little blurb that everyone's quoting as hard evidence that GW intend for players to force FW on their unsuspecting opponents consider FW rules "official", it still says to discuss it with your opponent before the game, indicating that playing with FW rules could cause issues and that it's good to make sure your opponent is happy to play against them first...basically you're still asking for "permission", because I highly doubt they really want you to make people play with FW rules if they aren't happy to play against them.

If they really "intended" for it to be treated no differently from any regular codex then they've failed, because that's exactly what they're doing, and what they've kinda done from the start. There shouldn't be a blurb at all if that's the case, and if there is, it should explicitly state that they're no different from codices and that they're all tournament legal.

Until then, this argument is never gonna stop, it's just going to be the same people saying the same thing over and over. GW probably likes watching us argue over this gak, because they could very easily end this debate once and for all by being a little more decisive, but they deliberately choose not to. It's always "FW is official, but...", and that's what causes problems. If that's what they really want then why not say so?

Mobile double post

Variety in events is a good thing, but why are you attaching whether or not Forgeworld is allowed to that concept of variety? If the only variety you have between events is what units are allowed, well that's pretty crappy variety and certainly not a selling point of those events.

You started out in this thread actually arguing points, but once those were rebutted you've resorted to lurking in and making outlandish claims like "it's good some events don't allow Forgeworld, that's variety!" and then insulting the pro-FW crowd by saying that you're disappointed they don't agree with you.

It doesn't really matter though, this thread is starting to get circular. Any point each side actually wants to make is probably already out there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KingCracker wrote:
I dont think hes coming off like that at all. Hes simply saying, let the tournys that allow FW allow them, and the ones that dont, dont. I agree with that. I mostly play for fun of the game, and seeing my horde on the table. I wouldnt however, like to play in a tourny that allows some incredibly over priced FW unit, that in many opinions, is undercosted, kick my pants off because I cant/dont want to afford the FW counter that also costs a boat load of money. So if all tournys allowed this, I most definitely wouldnt want to play in a tourny ever. Simply because again, I wouldnt have fun getting my face kicked in by what I previously mentioned

Can you actually name such a unit?

And by your logic you should be incredibly annoyed with the Necron Air Force list and other three cheese lists from the past. Are you refusing to play against those as well?

zephoid wrote:
Dred drop pods are pretty silly when you consider that BA can get them and they are so cheap. The new pred infernus with the magna melta is pretty OP with a multimelta large blast weapon for 120. The Vulture with its TL punisher cannon (20 shots S5 Bs4 TL), strafing run, vector thrusting, hover mode for 150 points is just silly.

Codex units are build around the concept that Force org conflicts will often limit the number of units you can take from that slot. See Tyranid's Elite slot with hive guard, zoans, and ymargls , guard HS slot with mants and medusa, tau HS with broadsides, SW HS or elite with longfangs and Lone Wolves, or GK HS with DK and Psydreds. FW models are put out without that consideration and, most times, without intense playtesting that codexes go through. 30% of FW models are just overcosted, another 65% are balanced, and just a few slip by and are undercosted. Removing or limiting the undercosted units to 1/army means you are left with a change of pace without effecting the overall power level of the game, which should be what FW are for.

zephoid wrote:
. Dred drop pods are pretty silly when you consider that BA can get them and they are so cheap.

If you are referring to the lucius pattern drop pod, BA are most certainly not allowed them. The allowable codecies are listed in Imperial Armor Apocalypse Second Edition.

This seems to continue to go around in a circle as RiTides pointed out.

To address whoever it was that said my OP was railing against progress that is not correct. As I have asserted several times, and so has RiTides, I will and do play in events that allow FW. What I am railing against is the idea that all tournaments should allow FW. There is no need to have all tournaments allow FW.

The constant comparison between disallowing FW being the same as disallowing an actual codex is ridiculous. The two aren't even close to comparable. A codex is put out by Games Workshop to be used with the current rules for Warhammer 40,000. Imperial Armor books are put out by Forgeworld to be used with the current Warhammer 40,000 rule set. They are not the same.

Again I am not saying FW should be banned from all tournaments. I am saying there are legitimate reasons on both sides and that TOs should give ample thought, and ask their constituency what they think, prior to allowing or not allowing FW at their events. My post on here and C&C was a response to what Reecius wrote on BoLS the only intent of which was to bring the opposing view point out as well.

Unfortunately it seems there is no room for compromise in some minds, on both sides, and so we continue to go in circles. I would like to point out however that the number of mistakes made by posters in regards to FW rules, and what is or is not a FW unit is anecdotal evidence showing that the FW rules are not well known and can be slightly confusing.

Anyway, unless the cyclical nature of the conversation breaks I will probably join RiTides and Reecius in the lurker category of this thread.

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
This seems to continue to go around in a circle as RiTides pointed out.

A codex is put out by Games Workshop to be used with the current rules for Warhammer 40,000. Imperial Armor books are put out by Games Workshops Forgeworld division to be used with the current Warhammer 40,000 rule set. They are the same.

Fixed it for you!

Amaya- Some TOs made great points that made me change my position after a bit of thought...

Variety is good- who said anything about that being only FW? We talked about mission and objective selection varying, too.

Perhaps "disappointed" was unnecessarily inflammatory language to use on my part... Sorry about that.

As Overwatch says, I just don't want to see people pressure full FW acceptance in all events. They're optional, and this thread has shown me fantastic reasons to allow them And go to events that do.

But they are not the Tau codex. No TO is claiming they are. And that got my back up... So, sorry for sounding condescending... I really like to think I'm not a jerk

But the fact that I've been convinced to modify my stance should show these threads are not all in vain

 RiTides wrote:
Amaya- Actually, some TOs made great points that made me reconsider my position. Variety is good- who said anything about that being only FW? We talked about mission and objective selection varying, too.

Perhaps "disappointed" was unnecessarily inflammatory language to use on my part... Sorry about that.

As Overwatch says, I just don't want to see people pressure full FW acceptance in all events. They're optional, and this thread has shown me fantastic reasons to allow them / go to events that do.

But they are not the Tau codex. No TO is claiming they are. And that got my back up... So, sorry for sounding condescending... I really like to think I'm not a jerk

We had a long discussion in our club preceding the decision to allow Forgeworld into our tournaments. In the end it came down to this:

Pros:
1) We had all the books available
2) People wanted to be able to play with their toys
3) It adds variety to the game
4) It breaks up the meta
5) It allows for some awesome and fun armies you never see otherwise

Cons:
1) Not everyone was familiar with the rules for forgeworld units
2) Not everyone had access to Forgeworld models

We now have a pool to create FW orders. You pay into it for what you want +5% and tell the person placing the order a list of things you want. Once we reach the minimum for free shipping, we place the order.

This has allowed us as a club to get more familiar with FW models and greatly driven up its acceptance in casual games. After that it was not much of a leap to allow it in tournaments. There have been no complaints of broken units, but only positive feedback saying that people were happy to be able to play with cool units.

I think that's great . You beat my edit. This thread has made me change my stance.

But it hasn't made me think everyone must allow FW, or that it's equivalent to a codex. I think yours, and similar solutions for tournies instead of clubs, is fantastic.

Yours in particular was a gradual solution, and personally I think that's best. I loved a single FW allowance at Adepticon... Maybe I'll brave a full FW event next! We'll see

 RiTides wrote:
I think that's great . You beat my edit. This thread has made me change my stance.

But it hasn't made me think everyone must allow FW, or that it's equivalent to a codex. I think yours, and similar solutions for tournies instead of clubs, is fantastic.

We don't have a blanket house rule saying "Though Shall Allow Forgeworld In Causal Games", and we generally tell our playing partners before the game. It generally is not a game stopping issue though. I know from experience, because my Nurgle Demons use Blight Drones, Decimators and a Plague Hulk. We don't allow Experimental units into tournaments though.

Beat my edit again (no change to the gist)

 kronk wrote:

zephoid wrote:
. Dred drop pods are pretty silly when you consider that BA can get them and they are so cheap.

If you are referring to the lucius pattern drop pod, BA are most certainly not allowed them. The allowable codecies are listed in Imperial Armor Apocalypse Second Edition.

A Dreadnought Drop Pod is a dedicated transport choice for any type of Space Marine Dreadnought in Space Marine, Dark Angel, Black
Templar, Space Wolf and Blood Angels Armies, please refer to the appropriate codex

Source: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/i/IA2update28AUG.pdf

zephoid wrote:

 kronk wrote:

zephoid wrote:
. Dred drop pods are pretty silly when you consider that BA can get them and they are so cheap.

If you are referring to the lucius pattern drop pod, BA are most certainly not allowed them. The allowable codecies are listed in Imperial Armor Apocalypse Second Edition.

A Dreadnought Drop Pod is a dedicated transport choice for any type of Space Marine Dreadnought in Space Marine, Dark Angel, Black
Templar, Space Wolf and Blood Angels Armies, please refer to the appropriate codex

Source: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/i/IA2update28AUG.pdf

And, as I just told you, that is out of date per the more recently released Imperial Armour Apocalypse Second Edition.

The cost went up, it not takes up a force org slot, there are rules about assaulting out of it (doesn't work 1/6th of the time) and BA CANNOT take them.

Always use the most recent book.

It looks like that got changed when they rolled it over to 6E maybe? it used to not be available to Blood Angels.

Nope. That is the old PDF for Imperial Armor Apocalypse 2, which is not Imperial Armor Apocalypse Second Edition.

That PDF came out in August of 2009.

The lastest rules for the Lucious Pattern Dreadnought Drop Pod are in IA Apocalypse Second Edtion, which came out in October 2011.

That would explain it, I could have sworn it was explicitely removed after the BA codex came out.

and that pdf is no longer referenced on the Forgeworld download site. BA can no longer take them in standard games of 40K.

Yep. If you want to run Imperial Armor in your tournaments, you REALLY need to know what is the most recent IA entry for the model/unit in question. Otherwise, confusion like this can happen.
The fact that there exists a book called Imperial Armor Apocalypse 2 and then then went and released Imperial Armor Apocalypse Second edition REALLY irks me.

It would have been far less confusing to call it 3, I think.

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
This seems to continue to go around in a circle as RiTides pointed out.

To address whoever it was that said my OP was railing against progress that is not correct. As I have asserted several times, and so has RiTides, I will and do play in events that allow FW. What I am railing against is the idea that all tournaments should allow FW. There is no need to have all tournaments allow FW.

The constant comparison between disallowing FW being the same as disallowing an actual codex is ridiculous. The two aren't even close to comparable. A codex is put out by Games Workshop to be used with the current rules for Warhammer 40,000. Imperial Armor books are put out by Forgeworld to be used with the current Warhammer 40,000 rule set. They are not the same.

Again I am not saying FW should be banned from all tournaments. I am saying there are legitimate reasons on both sides and that TOs should give ample thought, and ask their constituency what they think, prior to allowing or not allowing FW at their events. My post on here and C&C was a response to what Reecius wrote on BoLS the only intent of which was to bring the opposing view point out as well.

Unfortunately it seems there is no room for compromise in some minds, on both sides, and so we continue to go in circles. I would like to point out however that the number of mistakes made by posters in regards to FW rules, and what is or is not a FW unit is anecdotal evidence showing that the FW rules are not well known and can be slightly confusing.

Anyway, unless the cyclical nature of the conversation breaks I will probably join RiTides and Reecius in the lurker category of this thread.

I am not so much as saying that you are standing in the way of progress, but that is where the game appears to be trending after all these years. FW is becoming more and more accepted and it is just a matter of time that accepting FW will be the norm for all tournaments. Playing a tournament without FW will be akin to people that insist on playing 3rd edition Warhammer 40k. They will become the minority versus the number that will accept FW.

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

 White Ninja wrote:
Reading the rules over and over again will not give you a true understanding of a Units ability until you see it used to great effect. Unless you some kind of genius there is no way you can read through the rules for unit and think up of every singe method of exploiting it.

This was my main point. It introduces an element into the tournament where the "gotcha" factor becomes the primary element by which the player is winning the game. The only way to truly understand a unit is to use it or see it used, outside of the tournament format seeing FW is pretty rare.

This is no different than playing against a new codex. Or playing against someone who uses a unit in a clever way that you didn't think of. Sometimes you are going to be "gotcha'd". But if a FW unit turns out to be super good, then you will see it on the tabletop and you will learn how to play against it the same way you learn to play against these other things. With experience!
The mitigating factor here is that you can practice against a new codex with proxies, but what would be stopping you from doing the same with FW units? There is definitely too much fear mongering going on here about the unknown. The units will prove themselves or they will die out. It's part of an evolving metagame and I for one welcome our new resin overlords!

Grimtooth, I disagree that full FW allowance in all tournies is inevitable. Who knows what the future will bring!

 RiTides wrote:
Grimtooth, I disagree that full FW allowance in all tournies is inevitable. Who knows what the future will bring!

True, but it will probably end up being more common then not.