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Motograter wrote:

Bossk_Hogg wrote:
They also need to stop pretending Warmachine and Hordes are different games.

Which if they were not registered as two different games they may well be. Alas they are different. As has been said by PP many times

I like that witchling stalker. Certainly better looking than the rest of the plastics

They share almost the entirely same ruleset, past the focus / fury mechanic. Past that one glaring difference, note that there are rules in one that directly affect the other (i.e. there are rules in WM that affect fury stat rules like transfering etc, and vice versa - Hordes rules that affect focus rules mechanics).

It would be a lot simpler if they just combined them into a single rule-set game, a sub-declension of which was the focus mechanic or fury mechanic.

-- Haight

 Forar wrote:
It'd be interesting if the list were just condensed down to the parent companies in general. Games Workshop, Privateer Press, 3, 4 and 5.

Also, I've seen similar lists around, but have heard the numbers are suspect, as in not necessarily based on hard numbers. Don't get me wrong, I'm not disputing that some flavour of Warhammer is the biggest game around, but that the companies in question don't release hard numbers for an exacting comparison or anything, so it's based off a smaller dataset (some distributors? Some shops? Gut feeling?).

That aside, I am curious to see how the community responds to 2.0. And I don't just mean the heated arguments on the forums, but in a 'voting with ones wallet' sense. How well the re-released crews sell, the new book, the decks of stat cards, etc.

GW releases pretty solid numbers on their sales due to them being a publicly traded company.

Lady Justice plastic boxed set photo:

Wow, pretty impressive looking. Still not wild about the middle jumping Death Marshal, but those are quite nice.

That is a nice looking crew!

Those look good even in a bad photo.

I think that with plastics like these Wyrd will do well.

Yeah, I agree. If they keep releasing kits that look as good as that one, then the strength of the new plastics will probably be enough to drive the game forward even if there are a lot of current players who don't like M2E.

EricJ also posted this on his twitter, which shows the witchling stalker and some Iron Zombies (as well as the aforementioned Lady J crew)




Edit: For what it's worth, the minis have never been a bad thing for me with the jump to M2E (except that I may have to rebuy my favorite masters >_< ), just the rules... Though Jazz Hands Death Marshal needs to take a long step-ball-change* off of a short pier

* - who knew I'd remember something from a high school musical I was a part of

The timeline I have heard is the following:
Prerelease of the main book on GenCon in August. Includes 3 masters each of 7 factions.
Downloadable rules a bit later (September, October?).
General official release is January in USA (and later for Europe). That's when normal people can buy the main rulebook plus plastic starters for all included masters (that would be 21 plastic starters, quite ambitious, I doubt they can pull that off).
January is also the month, when the new edition officially replaces the old one.

 Kroothawk wrote:
The timeline I have heard is the following:
Prerelease of the main book on GenCon in August. Includes 3 masters each of 7 factions.
Downloadable rules a bit later (September, October?).
General official release is January in USA (and later for Europe). That's when normal people can buy the main rulebook plus plastic starters for all included masters (that would be 21 plastic starters, quite ambitious, I doubt they can pull that off).
January is also the month, when the new edition officially replaces the old one.

Your timeline contradicts what's in the OP of the thread, and if you can provide solid information I'll be happy to update . From my knowledge it's the following:

Pre-release at GenCon (Wyrd's announcement for GenCon 2013 Releases says "Malifaux, 2nd Edition" and Minis )
Regular release in October. Though this might mean that Wyrd won't have it in their webstore until November as they always try to give it to the FLGS first.
All Events (those put on by Henchmen and those sponsored by Wyrd) will officially use M2E's rules starting in January (I believe it's like Jan 15th). Which is officially when 'replaces' the old which which supports your last point.

I don't see Wyrd releasing all of the plastic starters in a single month since that isn't how they've been operating over the past few years. It's most likely going to be something along these lines:

August Pre-release- W/e they decide + Rulebook
October 2013 through July 2014 - X number of starters (2 to 3?), Y Number of Blisters, replacing metal with plastic as it gets released.

But like I said, I'd be happy to update the OP if you can provide solid evidence of your timeline

Motograter wrote:

Bossk_Hogg wrote:
They also need to stop pretending Warmachine and Hordes are different games.

Which if they were not registered as two different games they may well be. Alas they are different. As has been said by PP many times

I like that witchling stalker. Certainly better looking than the rest of the plastics

You're grasping at semantics. They are played against each other in tournaments, they share models and rules. They're two sub groups of factions in the same game. Its like splitting off orcs and chaos from the rest of 40k because they have stupid random rules thrown in them.

To bring it back on topic... WOW. Those new plastics look amazing. Except for the jazz hands death marshall. Someone's digital sculptor leveled up! I'd planned on picking up more metals when they inevitably hit clearance, but now I'm thinking that may end up being a waste of time to paint them if the plastics look this much better.

The thing that makes me happiest is the single piece witchling stalker.

The way the pieces were split up for the Guild Riflemen was simply bonkers. It was said on the forums that part of the issue was that they were letting the company/whomever that was producing the figures make the cut points, and they didn't care about ease of assembly, just ease of mold production, or something like that. After a few rounds of this they sorted the issue out and now we have vastly more reasonable figures.

 Absolutionis wrote:
Lady Justice plastic boxed set photo:

Dang, looks like I'm buying the new box set.

Models are so much better than the old...


Personally, I really like the upgrades system. Anything that moves a game more towards "your dudes" and away from the AEG-style metaplot infecting Warmahordes can only be a bonus.

The models are indeed amazing... but i'm afraid that is all it is going to take for Wyrd to keep making money, and thus not necessarily worry about being the best steward of their game.

As a local friend pointed out to me, Malifaux 2.0 lost me, my wife, a friend, and several other players, as it stands right now... BUT our store already has one or two guys who literally buy and paint every single Wyrd release. The money they make off of nutters mass buying anything new, sight unseen, will more than make up for the five/six players (out of maybe 20... so a massive percentage) that stop buying our few crews and stray extras.

It's a tough call to make. Obviously they think that they'll draw in more players and get some people who re-purchase a crew or faction or the whole line, but that's weighed against people who pass on the game entirely (or simply stick with 1.5 with the rules and figures they have).

I mean, they wouldn't be doing this if someone hadn't run the numbers and come up with a belief that between book sales and new/replacement box purchases, they weren't going to come out ahead, but we all know there'll be some collateral damage.

As expressed a few times now, my crew may be among those lost, which is unfortunate.

Yeah, I don't look forward to the idea of having to rebuy my entire crew. Sure the minis might look better, but I've already put the time and effort into assembly!

Ideally Wyrd would love (at minimum) 2 new players for every 1 player that leaves. In a realistic fashion, they'd probably want between 3 and 5, just enough to get a small community going and growing.

So is this a bad time to get into Malifaux?

And what's all this about re-buying your crews? Why do you have to do that?

You'd only have to rebuy your crew if you liked the new plastic version better, otherwise you can just play with your old models.

The rules in the rulebooks will all be invalid soon, so unless you're buying them just for the fluff, then I'd avoid picking them up.

If you know what crew you want to run you might want to hold off till you know if it will be out in plasic soon.

So, yes, not the best time to get into the game, but if you already know people who play, then you can get started, but know that the rules will be slightly changing in the near future.

 Forar wrote:

As expressed a few times now, my crew may be among those lost, which is unfortunate.

What do you mean, "lost"?

 Alfndrate wrote:
Yeah, I don't look forward to the idea of having to rebuy my entire crew.

Um, why would you need to do that? These are resculpts. GW, Privateer, and Corvus Belli have all done that, and it very seldom invalidates the originals for use in play. I think there's a grand total of two models that don't get their rules updated, non-master Misaki and non-master Hamelin, and in the first case, I can't imagine any problem with using old Misaki to represent master-level Misaki. Heck, you could probably use old Hamelin as master-Hamelin if you re-mount him on a smaller base.

 Elemental wrote:

 Forar wrote:

As expressed a few times now, my crew may be among those lost, which is unfortunate.

What do you mean, "lost"?

 Alfndrate wrote:
Yeah, I don't look forward to the idea of having to rebuy my entire crew.

Um, why would you need to do that? These are resculpts. GW, Privateer, and Corvus Belli have all done that, and it very seldom invalidates the originals for use in play. I think there's a grand total of two models that don't get their rules updated, non-master Misaki and non-master Hamelin, and in the first case, I can't imagine any problem with using old Misaki to represent master-level Misaki. Heck, you could probably use old Hamelin as master-Hamelin if you re-mount him on a smaller base.

please don't just grab the one sentence that makes me look like a douche, grab all the sentences that make me look like a douche. I clearly said what you quoted, and I also said, "Sure the minis might look better, but I've already put the time and effort... blah blah blah..."

Compare those plastic pictures of Stripper Heel Justice with this:



Those sculpts are very static, kind of boring, and are showing their age a little.

Stripper Heels up there has an awesome looking crew, that I'd want, but I don't want to rebuy her JUST because she looks better.

Also we have no clue how they're going to disemminate the new stat cards. They said they'd do it in the least painful way possible, they could mean least painful for them and force us to buy the new boxes for the cards . I doubt they'd do that, but ya never know

Edit: As to Forar's comment, his local play group hasn't been taking to M2E very well which is why he's lost them.

Edit the Second: As to the idea of using Minion Misaki and Hamelin, YOU HAVE to use the Master's model because there are different things about the model, and it's basically WYSIWYG for Malifaux. And Master Hamelin has been out since Book 2, and Master Misaki has been out since Book 4. I doubt she's getting a resculpt since her box is already plastic. Hamelin most likely is.

As Alf pointed out, of my regular players, most seem either indifferent or outright hostile to the new version. At best we may stick with 1.5, at worst we might abandon the game entirely (especially with over a grand in Robotech figures coming theoretically in October). There's no point in a couple of us dropping cash on the new rule book, stat cards and whatnot if the rare game we manage to get going is 1.5 anyway.

As expected with any edition change, there'll be some folks who just aren't interested in moving along, be it cost or attachment to the old version or whatever. D&D sees it, some video games see it, I know Warhammer sees it, etc. An edition change can be a good time to clean up the rules, freshen up the mechanics and try something new while hopefully retaining the spirit of the old, but at the same time it's also a financial venture, and it's not surprising that some people simply don't have the time, money or effort to commit to such changes. In the cold business math of the matter, the company presumably hopes that they see more people who join in (new, returning or staying) than leave.

As for the stat cards, the word I've heard is that there'll be a stat card pack available around Gencon, with the book and (some?) of the new plastic box re-releases. This deck is supposed to contain all of the book 1 figures and upgrades, to get people started. I believe the idea is that when book 2 is released along with the new versions of the remaining figures, there'll be Faction decks released that cover each of those. Now, whether they'll skip the book 1 cards this time, or just have it be a full faction, or what, is all unclear.

But no, you will not need to spend $30-40 per crew just to get stat cards. They haven't set a price point on the decks yet, but we've been told they are aiming to make it affordable.

Stat cards are something I wish they had of done from the beginning, as I like Malifaux miniatures, but not all of them. Being able to buy complete faction sets of cards would be really handy.

One problem I have with the move to plastic miniatures is that a lot of factions all come on one big sprue, making it pretty much impossible to buy a single figure off it. I would like a Jacob Lynch by himself to use as a different figure, but I don't want to have to buy a $40 set to get him.

As to the change to the system, it will be interesting to see what they do with it.

 Alfndrate wrote:

please don't just grab the one sentence that makes me look like a douche, grab all the sentences that make me look like a douche. I clearly said what you quoted, and I also said, "Sure the minis might look better, but I've already put the time and effort... blah blah blah..."

Sorry, I misunderstood you. I wasn't trying to make you look bad.

 Alfndrate wrote:
Edit the Second: As to the idea of using Minion Misaki and Hamelin, YOU HAVE to use the Master's model because there are different things about the model, and it's basically WYSIWYG for Malifaux. And Master Hamelin has been out since Book 2, and Master Misaki has been out since Book 4. I doubt she's getting a resculpt since her box is already plastic. Hamelin most likely is.

Huh, got a citation for that? I had a quick look on the Wyrd forums, and I can't see any "standard" rules for proxying in organised play, like Privateer have, it seems to be up to event organisers, and since there's only one version of both characters in the game now, it's not like anyone will confuse their non-Master model with something else.

Elemental, I'm pretty sure that Wyrd has stated that you can use the older versions of the models.

I believe in the official rules, you can use an altered figure as long as it's at least 75% Wyrd product.

... that said, I have no idea how that'd play with using, say, an Austringer as a Guild Guard. Like, I'm not certain about proxying with Wyrd miniatures directly.

But using the old Hamelin as the new? Assuming they're both similar sized figures on a 30mm base, I can't see the harm for casual, but for a tournament I'd speak to the organizer ahead of time. Preferably via email so you'd have something 'in writing'.

Elemental wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
Edit the Second: As to the idea of using Minion Misaki and Hamelin, YOU HAVE to use the Master's model because there are different things about the model, and it's basically WYSIWYG for Malifaux. And Master Hamelin has been out since Book 2, and Master Misaki has been out since Book 4. I doubt she's getting a resculpt since her box is already plastic. Hamelin most likely is.

Huh, got a citation for that? I had a quick look on the Wyrd forums, and I can't see any "standard" rules for proxying in organised play, like Privateer have, it seems to be up to event organisers, and since there's only one version of both characters in the game now, it's not like anyone will confuse their non-Master model with something else.

It falls under the proxy rules from the old gaining grounds document that Proxies were not allowed, the current document says that Proxies are allowed in gaining grounds at TO's approval. Official Wyrd events, which use the Governor's Decree document however (like tournaments at a convention where Wyrd has an official presence, so like GenCon but not AdeptiCon) Proxies are not allowed. So you cannot use this model:


to represent this model:


And you most definitely cannot use this model:


to represent this model:


But that last one is mostly because Hamelin, the Rat catcher is on a 50mm base and Hamelin the Plagued is on a 30mm base. Those models (Misaki, Warmaiden and Hamelin, Rat catcher) are disappearing in M2E because they have masters already (Misaki, Mistress of the Ten Thunders and Hamelin, the Plagued) which is completely fine as it didn't make too much sense in the concept of the whole story when a model was both a master and a minion in the game, but had already ascended to Master status/has an avatar.

As a personal aside, I use the old Pandora, Avatar of Woe model seen here as a proxy for the regular version of Pandora. The AoW had to be dropped from a 40mm base to a 30mm, but she's on that tiny box, I'm not sure what the issue is .

spiralingcadaver wrote:Elemental, I'm pretty sure that Wyrd has stated that you can use the older versions of the models.

can or can't?

Forar wrote:I believe in the official rules, you can use an altered figure as long as it's at least 75% Wyrd product.

... that said, I have no idea how that'd play with using, say, an Austringer as a Guild Guard. Like, I'm not certain about proxying with Wyrd miniatures directly.

But using the old Hamelin as the new? Assuming they're both similar sized figures on a 30mm base, I can't see the harm for casual, but for a tournament I'd speak to the organizer ahead of time. Preferably via email so you'd have something 'in writing'.

Technically the conversion rules are 66% (as it states you can use up to 33% of other company's components...

Don't be silly, you can use minion Misaki as master Misaki, Mack even suggested that in a podcast. Also, it's not like Wyrd is going to come steal your models, you can use whatever you want.

I really get the feeling a lot of the negative reaction is based on knee-jerk, arm-chair developer mind sets. I've only played a few games so far, but 2.0 has been way superior to 1.5.

 Ozymandias wrote:
Don't be silly, you can use minion Misaki as master Misaki, Mack even suggested that in a podcast.

Nice, nothing like having a developer go against their official tournament rulings. For casual events, yeah it doesn't matter as long as you and your friend know wtf is going on. What podcast is this, so I can use minion Misaki as Master Misaki at GenCon, and offer that recording as proof . (Jk, I'm too busy at GenCon to play in a Wyrd tournament )

Also, it's not like Wyrd is going to come steal your models, you can use whatever you want.

That has never been the crux of the "rebuying your crews" argument. I know that I don't have to rebuy my crews, unless I like the looks of the new ones better.

I really get the feeling a lot of the negative reaction is based on knee-jerk, arm-chair developer mind sets. I've only played a few games so far, but 2.0 has been way superior to 1.5.

In probably 2/3rds of the cases, you're probably right, but there are people that don't like the new rules for a variety of reasons after playing "a few games" (technically that's 3 or more), and M2E just doesn't scratch them the way 1.5 did.

There is no buying a new crew argument. You don't "have" to buy the new plastic crews. If you like the look of them, you can "choose" to buy them, or you can keep using your metal models, the choice is yours. Honestly, this is the first time that I've ever seen a company redoing their models to make them better ever listed as a negative, it's blowing my mind.

As an example, for my Vampire Counts army in WHFB, I have 3 generations of skeletons. I have the really, really old ones from back in 4th ed, then the updated 5th or 6th ed ones (the ones still in use for Tomb Kings), and then the most current ones (7th ed?), that are awesome looking. Did I think each time that I "had" to upgrade my skeleton unit? No, I liked the look of the updated models so I choose to get the new ones.

 Alfndrate wrote:

But that last one is mostly because Hamelin, the Rat catcher is on a 50mm base and Hamelin the Plagued is on a 30mm base. Those models (Misaki, Warmaiden and Hamelin, Rat catcher) are disappearing in M2E because they have masters already (Misaki, Mistress of the Ten Thunders and Hamelin, the Plagued) which is completely fine as it didn't make too much sense in the concept of the whole story when a model was both a master and a minion in the game, but had already ascended to Master status/has an avatar.

Well, it's not like there's no precedent for a character in Malifaux fighting a duplicate of themselves.