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 EVIL INC wrote:
IWhat I notice being ignored are the tactical ways that are being given to get around the problem.

Probably because this is YMDC, not the Tactics forum.

I just got back from GW and speak with veteran and GW staff, they both said same thing.

"Yes you can shoot at Gretchen and Gretchen CAN shoot over Aegis Defence Line include spinefist ripper and rating.

If they still refuse to accept what you said, show them page 8 rule book. Don't worry, game tournament organizer will agree with you"

So we are right and our arc-enemy are wrong.

The answer to this topic :- yes you can. Still in trouble, show them page 8 of rule book.

GW staff are not expert in interpreting rules or, uh, anything else. In their stores they can lay it down however they want to but they aren't subject matter experts, so to speak.

So warhammer world and game workshop HQ are not expert in warhammer 40k game?

You tell me.

 Ouze wrote:
GW staff are not expert in interpreting rules or, uh, anything else. In their stores they can lay it down however they want to but they aren't subject matter experts, so to speak.

This is true. If there is one thing I've learned from YMDC over the years, it is that NOBODY ever has final say over the interpretation of a rule. It doesn't matter if it's a TO, or GW staff, a codex author, or if the Emporer Himself appeared before you to tell you the rule is so.

Even Ward, Cruddence, and Kelley are but vile pretenders when it comes to discussing the correct interpretation of the rules they themselves wrote.

This forum only accepts the written laws of the almighty twin Gods, BRB and FAQ.

Murrdox wrote:
This is true. If there is one thing I've learned from YMDC over the years, it is that NOBODY ever has final say over the interpretation of a rule. It doesn't matter if it's a TO, or GW staff, a codex author, or if the Emporer Himself appeared before you to tell you the rule is so.

Even Ward, Cruddence, and Kelley are but vile pretenders when it comes to discussing the correct interpretation of the rules they themselves wrote.

This forum only accepts the written laws of the almighty twin Gods, BRB and FAQ.

I never said anything like that. I pointed out - correctly - that someone hired to run a cash register and stock shelves doesn't have any special insight into the mechanics of the game they sell, any more than a Toy R Us employee is somehow uniquely qualified to interpret the rules of Candyland or Monopoly.

Speaking only for myself, I'd take any of the game developer's remarks as gospel if there was a clear record of them.

What some dude at a GW store said doesn't matter as, go in next week and ask a different clerk, you're likely to get the opposite answer.

The same holds true of calling GW customer service directly. They're not intended to interpret rules for you, it seems, more just handle your issues with orders and answer general product inquiries.

Lastly, what "the guy at the store" said is an unverified, and unverifiable, statement. I could post that any given Codex author and I were hanging out at the pub (despite the fact that I live on the West Coast of the United States... stick with me here) and he told me all the ways that they intended the game to be played and I have it all written down on cocktail napkins....
... it's unverifiable. Without those authors putting that text in a publication that is available to other players, it's basically my word against theirs that what I say they said was actually said.

For me.. Play warhammer 40k since 1991...

I think I'll trust to dice god.

Solidcrash wrote:
I just got back from GW and speak with veteran and GW staff, they both said same thing.

"Yes you can shoot at Gretchen and Gretchen CAN shoot over Aegis Defence Line include spinefist ripper and rating.

If they still refuse to accept what you said, show them page 8 rule book. Don't worry, game tournament organizer will agree with you"

So we are right and our arc-enemy are wrong.

The answer to this topic :- yes you can. Still in trouble, show them page 8 of rule book.

See, this is a fake post. Why? Because your question and answer don't make any sense.

The grot in the picture Ouze posted CANNOT see over the ADL period. Did you ask:
*Can models which are too short can shoot even if they cannot see?
*Can I modify a grot to be taller to shoot and only taller models who have TOLS can shoot?
*Can I model an ADL to be shorter' to shoot and then TOSL applies?
*Can anyone touching the ADL shoto regardless of TLS?
*Do ADLs not block LOS so even if a grot is totally invisible behind an ADL he can be shot?

If they claim a grot can shoot over, are they applying an abstraction where all models regardless of TLOS can shoot? What rule are they saying allows OUZE's grot in the picture to shoot?

You ask wrong questions, you get worthless answers.

Solidcrash wrote:
The answer to this topic :- yes you can. Still in trouble, show them page 8 of rule book.

Page 8 of the rulebook detailing True Line of Sight?
That same TLoS that utterly contradicts the statement?

Yeah, useless. Thanks for playing.

Random question., does the base have to be flat on the ground? We have already covered that not being able to shoot over it/ enemy not being able to see and thus shoot at you is actually an advantage for the ork player but for those unwilling to try any of the tactical ways to easily get around the issue... end rambling, the picture should above made me think, is it acceptable to put the end of the gun onto the wall? The might evevate him without MFA (eyeroll smiley) or using other artificial means. Is the ruling that all bases be flat on te ground? I've played a large variety of shops and never seen anyone coplain, edges hang in midair off of edges, some spots don't aow flat base for a lack of room and so on and so forth. never seen an official ruling on that but figured it would either be a flat yes or a flat no (pn intended).

The gun leaning up on the wall would mean he could look up in the air - but his eyes would still be below the edge of the ADL. You'd have to life him vertically in the air to see over it.

 EVIL INC wrote:
We have already covered that not being able to shoot over it/ enemy not being able to see and thus shoot at you is actually an advantage for the ork player...

I'm not sure that you making that claim and nobody else bothering to discuss it actually counts as 'We alreadsy covered...'

... is it acceptable to put the end of the gun onto the wall? .

Whether ot is or not, it's not going to be particularly useful, since LOS is drawn from his eyes, not from the gun.

I was asking because I don't think that aspect was covered yet and raising the front MAY (don't know, I don't have grots) bring the head up enough so the eyes could see over.

I know, it was a stupid question, Seeing the visual of that particular model standing next to the wall made me think about it and my disability caused me to not be able to get that out of my mind without some sort of clarification even though it will never affect any of my games most likely.

 insaniak wrote:

 EVIL INC wrote:
... is it acceptable to put the end of the gun onto the wall? .

Whether ot is or not, it's not going to be particularly useful, since LOS is drawn from his eyes, not from the gun.

The particular image with the particular grot ouze has shown would allow that grot to shoot the marines on the upper level of the ruins if his gun was propped up on the wall, so the question does become valid in this case.

Can we lean the ADL forward a bit using another piece of the ADL as the holder, stagger them so one is always holding up the next. It would be high enough to give 25% and he could then see over.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
The particular image with the particular grot ouze has shown would allow that grot to shoot the marines on the upper level of the ruins if his gun was propped up on the wall, so the question does become valid in this case.

He could do that anyway, without being propped up on the wall.

Stormbreed wrote:
Can we lean the ADL forward a bit using another piece of the ADL as the holder, stagger them so one is always holding up the next. It would be high enough to give 25% and he could then see over.

I believe the bases have to be together. I've seen them not touch perfectly because of the terrain having grooves and bumps and never seen anyone complain. Some might take offence to that though.

Solidcrash wrote:
For me.. Play warhammer 40k since 1991...

I think I'll trust to dice god.

Solidcrash - no, WHW staff - or any GW retail staff - are no more expert or an authority on the rules than anyone else. Often retail staff know less - believe it or not they often have less time to actually play the hobby than you think. I know this based on my partner being ex staff, and abotu 15 of my friends either still being staff or also being ex staff.

Its why the tenets of the forum (in the sticky at the top of this forum) only say to discuss those printed answers found in FAQs, the BRB etc - anything is unverifiable.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Solidcrash wrote:
For me.. Play warhammer 40k since 1991...

I think I'll trust to dice god.

Solidcrash - no, WHW staff - or any GW retail staff - are no more expert or an authority on the rules than anyone else. Often retail staff know less - believe it or not they often have less time to actually play the hobby than you think. I know this based on my partner being ex staff, and abotu 15 of my friends either still being staff or also being ex staff.

Its why the tenets of the forum (in the sticky at the top of this forum) only say to discuss those printed answers found in FAQs, the BRB etc - anything is unverifiable.

Yeah they really need add this in FAQ so we all can shut up about it... Hopefully new book called strongpoint come out and sort this out once and all.

nkelsch wrote:

Solidcrash wrote:
I just got back from GW and ..... show them page 8 of rule book.

See, this is a fake post. Why? Because your question and answer don't make any sense.

The grot in the picture Ouze posted CANNOT see over the ADL period. Did you ask:

Yeh I can see that picture. Don't forgot about dynamic pose. This is not model for advance because this model do have capabilities pose.

nkelsch wrote:

*Can models which are too short can shoot even if they cannot see?

Similar to that.. I just said

Aegis defence line -
Rule - some one said my space marine who are kneel can't shoot and use cover save.

[show GW my space marine base to base with aegis line ]

It can shoot through? Can you explain why so I can show this to him.

GW said : use spirit of the game in page 8. They can stand up and have same capabilities .

What about Gretchen? Halfing? Spinfist Ripper?
[show GW my 5th edition Gretchen with aegis]

GW said : Can shoot and line of sight. Take cover save and causal from them. They do have capabilities and dynamic pose.


I just shut up and chat about something else...
In 2009 I remember I play with veteran and have this very similar problem. Within 10 second we just unsure what going on, he just tell me to roll off to see who was correct. I lose and he won, and carry on have a great time and we are tie.

nkelsch wrote:

*Can I modify a grot to be taller to shoot and only taller models who have TOLS can shoot?

Nope I haven't. But in their word made me think I can change pose with capabilities. So this Gretchen can stand up straight. Should be able to see over from eyeliner.. Tiptoe may be legal!
And no, I won't ask because it would be silly.

nkelsch wrote:

*Can I model an ADL to be shorter' to shoot and then TOSL applies?

nope I haven't ask.. I can ask if ya want.

nkelsch wrote:

*Can anyone touching the ADL shoto regardless of TLS?

Similar but not this question.

nkelsch wrote:

*Do ADLs not block LOS so even if a grot is totally invisible behind an ADL he can be shot?

Yes I have, they said this aegis defence line give model a cover save nothing more. Aegis defence line are part of item just like barbwire, tank block and barrier.

nkelsch wrote:

If they claim a grot can shoot over, are they applying an abstraction where all models regardless of TLOS can shoot? What rule are they saying allows OUZE's grot in the picture to shoot?

You ask wrong questions, you get worthless answers.

And this.

Aegis defence line and bastion if lascannon or quad gun have line of sight on enemy but not model who manual it.. Can it still shoot?

GW: Yes they can. Camera on top of it and you have monitor beside the gunner tower.

I already have bastion strongpoint set.

Solidcrash wrote:


GW said : Can shoot and line of sight. Take cover save and causal from them. They do have capabilities and dynamic pose.

But in their word made me think I can change pose with capabilities. So this Gretchen can stand up straight. Should be able to see over from eyeliner.. Tiptoe may be legal

This is not a rule anywhere. This causes the game to shut down because it is impossible to enforce. So now anyone can have a telescoping design built in to the model and claim 'dynamic pose' and totally void TLOS?


Shenanigans and lies.

And asking them is wasting your breath as your answers have zero validity regardless what they say. We are all just pointing out the futility of your questions along with the invalidity of how you ask them to get an answer which answers nothing.

Then what the hell is "spirit of the games" in page 8 rulebook for? It was in rulebook.

I do remember that someone said "don't to be Nancy" in this very topic. Nobody read his post?

And many more person have said that model are not static. So yes there are someone said that "spirit of the games"

In my gut telling me that I can use this spirit of games until house rule and tournament organizer said otherwise. If they did in middle of game I will simple accept them.

Solidcrash wrote:
Then what the hell is "spirit of the games" in page 8 rulebook for? It was in rulebook.

I do remember that someone said "don't to be Nancy" in this very topic. Nobody read his post?

And many more person have said that model are not static. So yes there are someone said that "spirit of the games"

In my gut telling me that I can use this spirit of games until house rule and tournament organizer said otherwise. If they did in middle of game I will simple accept them.

So 'Page 8' covers all ignoring of the rules or doing whatever you want? One person's cheating is another persons 'spirit of the game'

Where is the 'models are dynamic' in the rulebook?

So your gut says 'I can knowingly cheat until someone calls me on it, then I will bully them by claiming spirit of the game and only stop cheating when a TO rule against me, totally disrespecting my opponents or trying to have a fair game. '

Nice.

What? I don't said let bend the rule.... I am said that any model can kneel, stand, 7-1, dog style, star jump, wave, t-pose, hop on one leg and many more pose.. That was not cheat...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/562617-Adl%2C%20Gretchen%2C%20Gretchin%2C%20Grots.html

That Grot is standing as tall as he will likely get (and still be able to shoot with anything near accuracy) and is still far from seeing over the wall. So yes, saying he can see over is cheating.

Has anyone actually encountered these sort of WAAC players that feel like TLOS is more of a guideline than an actual rule or is this whole thread just an exercise in futility?

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Has anyone actually encountered these sort of WAAC players that feel like TLOS is more of a guideline than an actual rule or is this whole thread just an exercise in futility?

I have encountered the MFA people who feel like they can model grots on top of 1" tall rocks to see over an ADL as well as make Custom ADLs with grot-level holes... But those players agree that TLOS work and has no allowance for 'dynamic models' concept to pretend a model can be standing in any way it feels like regardless of the actual model.

So modifying your model to a dynamic pose to gain height and pretending it can have a dynamic pose to gain height are two different camps. One is MFA and one is making up rules.

That was dynamic base which Gretchen stand on it. Anyone can yell it was model for advance if they try gain for advance. I am agree with them.

No idea if making hole on aegis defence line... Don't ask me... I am rather making ork theme defence line than make hole in aegis.

I am not war games develop. If I am odd out then you can win.

Solid - your posts are a little hard to follow, please try to make them a little more coherent

The grot is simply not tall enough,and cannot be, to gain true line of sight. If you try to call it spirit, why is it not ok for me to call it spirit - AND THE RULES - to state you can't see? Why is your spirit, which breaks the immensely clear rules, taking precedence over mine?