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This basically sums it up. I don't know how you can fix the psychic phase without figuring out what game you're playing first.

@Blackmoor: Wasn't the game Frankie played with the daemons more about the random cards?

 Crablezworth wrote:


@Blackmoor: Wasn't the game Frankie played with the daemons more about the random cards?

#1. I don't play demons.
#2. There was a lot of luck on both sides. Frankie got really lucky by not periling, and the amount of powers that he got off. His opponent got lucky with the cards that he drew.
#3. There is not much to be learned by the first game of 7th edition other than both players did not know what they are doing.
#4. There are a lot of people that point to that game to show how powerful the summoning demon army is, and I just find it ironic that they did not even win.
#5. Everyone talks about how broken demon summoning is, but we have yet to see that on the table top. If they can beat Eldar reliably, then we can start to have the conversation. Until that happens (and it won't) then there is no point in discussing it.

Thing is psychic daemons lack everything you need for a solid tournament army.

For a solid tournament army to consistantly place you need to limit variables as much as possible. The psychic daemon army is banking 100% basically on randomness to see it through. Not something I am worried about.

I'll toss out my opinions on the big contention points...


Unbound: Honestly, in competitive play mobile Objective Secured armies are going to manhandle Unbound Armies. I really don't think they will be winning many tournaments and most players will view them as a liability. Limiting to Battle Forged could be done and would be fine, but an unnecessary limitation isn't needed if Unbound armies okay out like I believe they will.

Battle Forged and the FOC: Dual Combined Arms detachments are just fine and required for Eldar/Iyanden, Tau/Farsight etc as you cannot ally with yourself. With the allies changes and extremely limited Battle Brothers choices outside of the Imperium we aren't going to see as much abuse as Taudar or Taurines, or Eldar/SM. Allowing Battle Forged as written is just fine.

Daemon Factory: It is too early to tell, but I do not believe that Daemon Factory is goi to be as destructive as our initial doom and gloom predictions made it out to be. There are many points of failure and it takes six dice to pull a 2/3 chance of successful casting on Summoning. Perils chances are there, Deny is a thing, albeit a rare thing, but there. A solid Daemon factory may bring fourth four units in a turn, it isn't hard to kill solo heralds or knock horrors down to limit warp charges. Going second especially against good Aloha strike lists can be absolutely brutal. Time will tell, and if we see Daemon factory dominate like Tau/Eldar or Eldar in 6th we will have a problem, but not an unbeatable one.

Limit Warp Per Turn: No. See above. The Physchic phase should govern itself and brings enough randomness to cost players tournaments. Relying on it may prove a bad strategy and be self limiting. Also, time limits will potentially limit excessive reliance on Daemon Factory. Last turn objective grabs by mobile Objective Secured opponents will cost Daemon Facotry players games.

Invisibility: Is broken. Losing the ability to target the unit with blasts, templates, and ignores Cover is huge and game breaking. Belakor getting it by default is the worst offender. A flat -2 to hit would have been appropriate, or making it WC3, or limiting to the Psycher and it's Unit, or revert to the 6th edition power.



In summary my only real complaint is Invisibility, I feel everything else will prove to be self limiting as this will not be the edition if Unbound Madness and Psychic Domination, but the edition of mobile, preferably mechanized, Objective Secured Scoring. We need more time and to view some tournament results before we can to any concrete conclusions about most of what is on the offenders list.

 Leth wrote:
Thing is psychic daemons lack everything you need for a solid tournament army.

For a solid tournament army to consistantly place you need to limit variables as much as possible. The psychic daemon army is banking 100% basically on randomness to see it through. Not something I am worried about.

I have to 100% disagree with this statement. When Tau dropped a while back we coined a phrase, "There is a Tau for that!" Mainly because they could do just about anything you needed them to do. Now the new phrase, "There is a daemon for that!' However, anyone can coin that phrase because a good majority of the armies can run malefic. You can spawn screamers for armor, flamers for horde control, plaguebearers for objective camping, even greater daemons for that offensive flying threat. My biggest concern isnt so much the daemon summoning factory. Personally if the lore was reduced to daemons only it would be more tolerable. When I can play a heavy shooting army with cheap psyker support I could essentially summon/conjure whatever I need in the fight. Sure you still have to get the powers off and 66% of the perils results have you taking a wound no matter what but honestly its seriously worth the risk. Plus you dont mind the wound if you just turned your psyker into a GD. I payed 75pts for a lord of change . Also it needs FAQ'd what happens when you perils but turn into something else when you do. Does the wound carry over... do all wounds that have been previously suffered also carry over? There is no example for this.

The issue is sure you got a Lord of Change, with 2 powers? no Gifts, etc. FMCs are not that great this edition (MCs in General got worse). Changing your psyker into a lord of change unless he has no other good powers, simply isn't that great, otherwise turning your chaos sorcerer into a Daemon prince on the boon table would be awesome too. It isn't. Generally you end up with an MC with a 5+ save, sitting on the ground(can you deepstrike swooping?)....where it dies pretty quick.

Cap the psychic dice to 12
No duplicate powers in an army except primaris powers.
Summoned units cannot summon
Dont use tactical objectives/maelstrom of war

 Soteks Prophet wrote:
Cap the psychic dice to 12
No duplicate powers in an army except primaris powers.
Summoned units cannot summon
Dont use tactical objectives/maelstrom of war

So then we ban Daemons, just so we are clear on that.

The psycich phase just isn't reliable enough to warrant a cap (certainly not to 12 dice, at which point you are casting 2 or 3 powers a turn, really that should be the cap?)

 Soteks Prophet wrote:
Cap the psychic dice to 12
No duplicate powers in an army except primaris powers.

So in other words, " all Daemon players" just for choosing to play Daemons?

 Soteks Prophet wrote:
Cap the psychic dice to 12
No duplicate powers in an army except primaris powers.
Summoned units cannot summon
Dont use tactical objectives/maelstrom of war

You really shouldn't list requests to help form a Tournament standard without at least play testing and if you had you should add evidence to backup your input.

 Tomb King wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Thing is psychic daemons lack everything you need for a solid tournament army.

For a solid tournament army to consistantly place you need to limit variables as much as possible. The psychic daemon army is banking 100% basically on randomness to see it through. Not something I am worried about.

I have to 100% disagree with this statement. When Tau dropped a while back we coined a phrase, "There is a Tau for that!" Mainly because they could do just about anything you needed them to do. Now the new phrase, "There is a daemon for that!' However, anyone can coin that phrase because a good majority of the armies can run malefic. You can spawn screamers for armor, flamers for horde control, plaguebearers for objective camping, even greater daemons for that offensive flying threat. My biggest concern isnt so much the daemon summoning factory. Personally if the lore was reduced to daemons only it would be more tolerable. When I can play a heavy shooting army with cheap psyker support I could essentially summon/conjure whatever I need in the fight. Sure you still have to get the powers off and 66% of the perils results have you taking a wound no matter what but honestly its seriously worth the risk. Plus you dont mind the wound if you just turned your psyker into a GD. I payed 75pts for a lord of change . Also it needs FAQ'd what happens when you perils but turn into something else when you do. Does the wound carry over... do all wounds that have been previously suffered also carry over? There is no example for this.

And I could theoretically make 10 5+ saves in a row on one guy sitting on an objective. Just because it is POSSIBLE does not mean that is is probable nor a smart idea. Second you are assuming for some other army that you will have enough dice and rolls to reliably summon units which will just not be the case. What makes Daemons/Eldar scary is the large number of dice and large number of rolls on the tree that they will likely have multiples of each of the conjuring powers so they can reliably get them off.

We have not had enough time to know if it is going to be an actual problem instead of an imaginary one and what the actual mechanic that is the problem is, if there is one. Just because the check engine light is on doesn't mean that you need a new alternator. You need to investigate and find the exact problem. Which takes time, practice, and feedback from everyone else. We dont even know how all the little rules interactions in the edition will workout. Give people time to learn to play armies and play against armies before we decide to be some overlord like individuals taking away peoples ability to play with their toys because we say so.

You paid 75 points for a GD POTENTIALLY, I can also pay 5 points for a guardsman with a lasgun that causes a wound on your riptide drones and he runs off the board, what is your point? If you are saying that I can spend points to get something and it gives me more of a return than I spent. Well yea, that is the goal for most units. Also even if what you are saying is true and common place most FMC have been limited in useability.

As to the perils/wounds thing, the order of operations is clear on perils/wounds. Perils is completed before manifesting the power. As to the wounds it is 100% clear that the initial model is removed as a casualty and a new model is put on the table.

Breng77 wrote:
The issue is sure you got a Lord of Change, with 2 powers? no Gifts, etc. FMCs are not that great this edition (MCs in General got worse). Changing your psyker into a lord of change unless he has no other good powers, simply isn't that great, otherwise turning your chaos sorcerer into a Daemon prince on the boon table would be awesome too. It isn't. Generally you end up with an MC with a 5+ save, sitting on the ground(can you deepstrike swooping?)....where it dies pretty quick.

And we can't forget that a Summoned FMC arrives from reserves via deepstrike, cannot change movement modes or charge the turn it arrives, can only change movment modes the following turn, and cant actually charge anything until the second turn after it's summoned. Makes summoning a Bloodthirster kind of pointless. I think we need to get past the "OMG a Greater Daemon!" and really look at it.

Summon FMC T2, it can Charge T4.

IMO you are better off summoning a GUO or KOS because they can affect the board much more quickly and it isn't like your LOC is going to be casting Witchfires anyway, you need those dice for more Summoning.


I wrote Limitation to Know and Understand for Summoned Daemons to address many of these points.

 Leth wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Thing is psychic daemons lack everything you need for a solid tournament army.

For a solid tournament army to consistantly place you need to limit variables as much as possible. The psychic daemon army is banking 100% basically on randomness to see it through. Not something I am worried about.

I have to 100% disagree with this statement. When Tau dropped a while back we coined a phrase, "There is a Tau for that!" Mainly because they could do just about anything you needed them to do. Now the new phrase, "There is a daemon for that!' However, anyone can coin that phrase because a good majority of the armies can run malefic. You can spawn screamers for armor, flamers for horde control, plaguebearers for objective camping, even greater daemons for that offensive flying threat. My biggest concern isnt so much the daemon summoning factory. Personally if the lore was reduced to daemons only it would be more tolerable. When I can play a heavy shooting army with cheap psyker support I could essentially summon/conjure whatever I need in the fight. Sure you still have to get the powers off and 66% of the perils results have you taking a wound no matter what but honestly its seriously worth the risk. Plus you dont mind the wound if you just turned your psyker into a GD. I payed 75pts for a lord of change . Also it needs FAQ'd what happens when you perils but turn into something else when you do. Does the wound carry over... do all wounds that have been previously suffered also carry over? There is no example for this.

And I could theoretically make 10 5+ saves in a row on one guy sitting on an objective. Just because it is POSSIBLE does not mean that is is probable nor a smart idea. Second you are assuming for some other army that you will have enough dice and rolls to reliably summon units which will just not be the case. What makes Daemons/Eldar scary is the large number of dice and large number of rolls on the tree that they will likely have multiples of each of the conjuring powers so they can reliably get them off.

We have not had enough time to know if it is going to be an actual problem instead of an imaginary one and what the actual mechanic that is the problem is, if there is one. Just because the check engine light is on doesn't mean that you need a new alternator. You need to investigate and find the exact problem. Which takes time, practice, and feedback from everyone else. We dont even know how all the little rules interactions in the edition will workout. Give people time to learn to play armies and play against armies before we decide to be some overlord like individuals taking away peoples ability to play with their toys because we say so.

You paid 75 points for a GD POTENTIALLY, I can also pay 5 points for a guardsman with a lasgun that causes a wound on your riptide drones and he runs off the board, what is your point? If you are saying that I can spend points to get something and it gives me more of a return than I spent. Well yea, that is the goal for most units. Also even if what you are saying is true and common place most FMC have been limited in useability.

As to the perils/wounds thing, the order of operations is clear on perils/wounds. Perils is completed before manifesting the power. As to the wounds it is 100% clear that the initial model is removed as a casualty and a new model is put on the table.

10 saves on a 5+ model has a probability of 00.17%
Have you played with the malefic powers yet? I sincerely recommend playing with them before throwing out further statistics. You will find it is easier then you think to summon these daemons. You dont care about perils of you can turn into a herald or a GD with your last cast. Throw enough dice at it and it will go off. As I said summon heavy deamons wont be the problem. A army tiered toward shooting auch as AM will be the main offenders. I can legally bring 12 WC from primaris psykers alone at 1500 points and still have plenty of shooty things to win the game. Even if you roll bad on malefic the primaris is the best power.

Im okay with leaving the psychic phase untouched though. So far only correction im going to suggest is WC 3 invisibility. However I would not ve surprised if tournaments limit malefic.

and I never said you were wrong. I am saying we don't have enough data yet to know A.What the main offending mechanic is:

Is it the powers themselves?
Is it the number of dice an army can get?
Is it the missions?

For all I know it could be the most busted brutal broken POS mechanic in the game. I am completely open to that possibility, but I am not going to declare the rules guilty until there is a significant burden of evidence.

Also as to summoning the greater daemon, since perils is 100% resolved before you actually start the power, if you cant complete a pre-requisite part of the power(remove the model as a causalty) then you cant place a daemon and it for all intents and purposes will fail.

Peronally I think santic is way more busted than malific, but that is just me. Like by focusing on the summoning aspect of daemonology you are completely missing other busted combos that might actually cause problems and are much more prevalent. Santic+Malific in the same daemon army is WAY more powerful than summoning

 Leth wrote:
and I never said you were wrong. I am saying we don't have enough data yet to know A.What the main offending mechanic is:

Is it the powers themselves?
Is it the number of dice an army can get?
Is it the missions?

For all I know it could be the most busted brutal broken POS mechanic in the game. I am completely open to that possibility, but I am not going to declare the rules guilty until there is a significant burden of evidence.

Also as to summoning the greater daemon, since perils is 100% resolved before you actually start the power, if you cant complete a pre-requisite part of the power(remove the model as a causalty) then you cant place a daemon and it for all intents and purposes will fail.

Peronally I think santic is way more busted than malific, but that is just me. Like by focusing on the summoning aspect of daemonology you are completely missing other busted combos that might actually cause problems and are much more prevalent. Santic+Malific in the same daemon army is WAY more powerful than summoning

Emphasis mine.

I have to agree with this.
We already have for example, the ability for the likes of Ahriman to take Santic and potentially fire off 3x "Vortex of Fun!" in a single turn.
- Or how about casting Sanctuary on a unit of Hammernators or Nurgle Oblits or GK Termies w/swords, or a CSM Tzeentch DP, etc... Then add-in an IG Preacher for added lolz where possible! (here go Marine players, you have the most busted re-rolled 2++ ability now - happy?!!)
- Or maybe a Rhino popping it's top hatch so those Purifyers/Libby can fire off a Cleansing Flame?
- Maybe Hammerhand on any kind of mini-star unit incorporation any model or ability that gives re-rolls to-hit?
- Gate of Infinity that unit out of a no-win position, or else drop a Deathstar/big nasty right in your opponent's face T1...

But apparently it's only Daemons who are naughty this edition!

Like why is no one talking about 2+ Invul terminators?

Or 2+ Invul tank commanders in a command squad with 2+ invuls and FNP? Or all of those things?

I am curious because there is a lot of other possibilities in the game so what EXACTLY is it about daemons summoning that is the problem?

How does one get a tank with a 2+ invul save just out of curiosity? I may be missing something, but I haven't come across that one.

2+ Invul termi's are a fair point of contention, though they're also much more expensive per model than something like a unit of Horrors are.

 Vaktathi wrote:
How does one get a tank with a 2+ invul save just out of curiosity? I may be missing something, but I haven't come across that one.

2+ Invul termi's are a fair point of contention, though they're also much more expensive per model than something like a unit of Horrors are.

Only way i see it happening is forewarning and then two separate +1 to invuls..?

For the record a 2+ invul isnt bad. Sure it sucks but its no better then a 2+ armor if I am using dakka to bring them down. It is the re-roll that give the 2++ that broken edge. Santic has some good powers but if you roll bad then your hosed. The primaris only affects daemons.

I guess that would work, though it's not something I'd guess would be terribly common. Hadn't thought of that.

Personally I'm still very much horrified by 2+ invul saves in general, much less rerollable 2+ saves, I don't think anything should have a 5/6 chance of blocking even the most fearsome weaponry in the game, it makes investments in such weapons a joke, though that's a matter for another thread.

Sorry when I said tank commander I meant for Space marines with the storm shield/shield eternal.

I need to change the terminology now....

My point is that in regards to Invisibility I can see many more potential combinations where the goal is to actually win the game rather than frustrate your opponent. Invisibility is FRUSTRATING, but it is not game breaking IMO. In the old rulebook missions 2+ re-rolls were game breaking. How ever in this edition with objective secured as well as other things they are simply frustrating at best.

Honestly objective secured alone solves like 90% of the problem with deathstar units.

 Tomb King wrote:

 Leth wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Thing is psychic daemons lack everything you need for a solid tournament army.

For a solid tournament army to consistantly place you need to limit variables as much as possible. The psychic daemon army is banking 100% basically on randomness to see it through. Not something I am worried about.

I have to 100% disagree with this statement. When Tau dropped a while back we coined a phrase, "There is a Tau for that!" Mainly because they could do just about anything you needed them to do. Now the new phrase, "There is a daemon for that!' However, anyone can coin that phrase because a good majority of the armies can run malefic. You can spawn screamers for armor, flamers for horde control, plaguebearers for objective camping, even greater daemons for that offensive flying threat. My biggest concern isnt so much the daemon summoning factory. Personally if the lore was reduced to daemons only it would be more tolerable. When I can play a heavy shooting army with cheap psyker support I could essentially summon/conjure whatever I need in the fight. Sure you still have to get the powers off and 66% of the perils results have you taking a wound no matter what but honestly its seriously worth the risk. Plus you dont mind the wound if you just turned your psyker into a GD. I payed 75pts for a lord of change . Also it needs FAQ'd what happens when you perils but turn into something else when you do. Does the wound carry over... do all wounds that have been previously suffered also carry over? There is no example for this.

And I could theoretically make 10 5+ saves in a row on one guy sitting on an objective. Just because it is POSSIBLE does not mean that is is probable nor a smart idea. Second you are assuming for some other army that you will have enough dice and rolls to reliably summon units which will just not be the case. What makes Daemons/Eldar scary is the large number of dice and large number of rolls on the tree that they will likely have multiples of each of the conjuring powers so they can reliably get them off.

We have not had enough time to know if it is going to be an actual problem instead of an imaginary one and what the actual mechanic that is the problem is, if there is one. Just because the check engine light is on doesn't mean that you need a new alternator. You need to investigate and find the exact problem. Which takes time, practice, and feedback from everyone else. We dont even know how all the little rules interactions in the edition will workout. Give people time to learn to play armies and play against armies before we decide to be some overlord like individuals taking away peoples ability to play with their toys because we say so.

You paid 75 points for a GD POTENTIALLY, I can also pay 5 points for a guardsman with a lasgun that causes a wound on your riptide drones and he runs off the board, what is your point? If you are saying that I can spend points to get something and it gives me more of a return than I spent. Well yea, that is the goal for most units. Also even if what you are saying is true and common place most FMC have been limited in useability.

As to the perils/wounds thing, the order of operations is clear on perils/wounds. Perils is completed before manifesting the power. As to the wounds it is 100% clear that the initial model is removed as a casualty and a new model is put on the table.

10 saves on a 5+ model has a probability of 00.17%
Have you played with the malefic powers yet? I sincerely recommend playing with them before throwing out further statistics. You will find it is easier then you think to summon these daemons. You dont care about perils of you can turn into a herald or a GD with your last cast. Throw enough dice at it and it will go off. As I said summon heavy deamons wont be the problem. A army tiered toward shooting auch as AM will be the main offenders. I can legally bring 12 WC from primaris psykers alone at 1500 points and still have plenty of shooty things to win the game. Even if you roll bad on malefic the primaris is the best power.

Im okay with leaving the psychic phase untouched though. So far only correction im going to suggest is WC 3 invisibility. However I would not ve surprised if tournaments limit malefic.

Wait, wait, wait. WC3 Invis? If that happens, I better see WC3 Fortune too. They are equally broken. Invisibility can be curbed by armies that have a lot of twin-linking, especially non psychic TL. I think if you start increasing costs of powers, you're going to start a slippery slope. There are a bunch of powers you could argue are undercosted (Ignores Cover, the 4++), just as there are a lot of units and random abilities/units that are undercosted (Buffmander, Serpents).



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:
How does one get a tank with a 2+ invul save just out of curiosity? I may be missing something, but I haven't come across that one.

2+ Invul termi's are a fair point of contention, though they're also much more expensive per model than something like a unit of Horrors are.

Draigo + Sanctuary (or whatever the +1 invuln power on sanctic is).

2++ tank for you.

 Tomb King wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
How does one get a tank with a 2+ invul save just out of curiosity? I may be missing something, but I haven't come across that one.

2+ Invul termi's are a fair point of contention, though they're also much more expensive per model than something like a unit of Horrors are.

Only way i see it happening is forewarning and then two separate +1 to invuls..?

For the record a 2+ invul isnt bad. Sure it sucks but its no better then a 2+ armor if I am using dakka to bring them down. It is the re-roll that give the 2++ that broken edge. Santic has some good powers but if you roll bad then your hosed. The primaris only affects daemons.

There's only a single combination in the entire game that I'm aware of where that works:
1. Psyker w/Forewarning from the Divination tree
2. Psyker w/Sanctuary from the Santic Daemonology tree
3. Psyker w/Cursed Earth from the Malefic Daemonology tree

And that combo will only work on a Daemonic model. (Forewarning to 4++, Cursed Earth to 3++, Sanctuary to 2++)
And due to the nature of how IC's cannot join a unit with the Daemonic Instability rule, you're limiting that combo to just the daemonic units from the CSM codex.

Mostly you'll just say feth-it and put Sanctuary on a unit that already has a 4++ or better yet a 3++ save, since you can't stack the same Blessing for repeated bonuses. Or else cast one of the above powers and then slap a Daemonic unit with The Good Book in the case of Chaos players.

It always cracks me to see what people suggest how to make the game better and more balanced. WC2 is actually pretty stiff now in my opinion.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It always cracks me to see what people suggest how to make the game better and more balanced. WC2 is actually pretty stiff now in my opinion.

I know. The amount of times "simple and elegant solution" appears after some ill-considered change that has massive secondary effects is depressing and comical at the same time.

When you think about it the TOs were not able to reign in BeaStar, JCS or ScreamerStar in 6th edition and we all know what paves the way to Hell.

TOs are not the government though. They are not imposing their will through force.

They are more like the board at your local country club, if you want to play you play by that country clubs rules.

What tournaments have been played or play testing on whatever scale to suggest a nerf of warp charges or daemons is needed?

I am hoping ATC lets us play raw 40k... we will all be able to draw some good conclusions.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I am hoping ATC lets us play raw 40k... we will all be able to draw some good conclusions.

I concur

Dozer Blades wrote:I am hoping ATC lets us play raw 40k... we will all be able to draw some good conclusions.

Tsilber wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I am hoping ATC lets us play raw 40k... we will all be able to draw some good conclusions.

I concur

FROM ATC PAGE:



I ask the people please stop pretending that this is the only location where this movement towards balance is happening. Its happening across the country with a lot of the same changes being implented. However, I am not sure if its happening overseas or not.