Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Pyeatt wrote:
I brought my standard Space wolves list (previous codex). Played for 2 years, always a good fight for any army, only tabled a couple times, and its always on turn 5+ if it happens. Eldar come out, Wraithknight, dark reapers, wave serpants everywhere, and warp spiders just for fun.

Tabled early turn 3. Unable to kill a single freaking thing.

Your opponent had a good codex, a competitive list (except the dark reapers which are just below threshold but possibly great AA).

You had a bad codex (arguably so, the previous SW was unplayable), an average list (I guess, from what you express).

And you were tabled early turn 3 by an army that's known to table or be tabled.



My advice:

1. Get the new SW, it's good.
2. Use allies, that's what the IoM is good at.
3. Write a real competitive list.
4. Try again.


If you had been playing a decent codex and a competitive list and had lost five times in a row, then maybe it would be time to scream "OP" - your experience doesn't really call for it though.

To answer the question: They are fragile specialist army, in a manner that they have wave serpents which cost 110ish points less than a LR and: lose 2 AV
get: jink, semirending S6 guns, 4 TL shots that TL EVERY THING if they scorr ONLY one hit, AND a pinning 60inch ignores cover S7 D6+1, and if you choose not tho shoot the latter, all pens are glances on 2+ and they also have OS unlike the land raiders (apart from BT crudader squad with dedicated transport LRCs who can roll out 5 OS LRCs, which then get demolished by most other things, unlike the WS spam.)
Say 5 LRS WOULD WIN vs 8 serpents, but that is why you take say 4,5 of them and a wraithknight..
If you take spirit seer then you get fragile troops that are toughness 6 (plague marines, which with heldrake are only things keeping CSM dex from being utter poo, suddenly don't look so cool now)
Also jetbikes that are better marines with better stats
Balanced specialist glasshammer army indeed
<end sarcasm>
ALSO: i once watched a CSM VS Eldar game: CSM got tabled by turn 4 IIRC. Then the CSM PLAYER gets this idea to swap armies. The csm player wins eldar player once he got the eldar army (and no eldar player had no experience with csm and vice versa)

morgoth wrote:

 Pyeatt wrote:
I brought my standard Space wolves list (previous codex). Played for 2 years, always a good fight for any army, only tabled a couple times, and its always on turn 5+ if it happens. Eldar come out, Wraithknight, dark reapers, wave serpants everywhere, and warp spiders just for fun.

Tabled early turn 3. Unable to kill a single freaking thing.

Your opponent had a good codex, a competitive list (except the dark reapers which are just below threshold but possibly great AA).

You had a bad codex (arguably so, the previous SW was unplayable), an average list (I guess, from what you express).

When one codex makes most other codexes bad, it's called overpowered.

Yours sincirely CO.

 koooaei wrote:
When one codex makes most other codexes bad, it's called overpowered.

SW codex was bad against any army actually.
And Eldar codex was balanced against Necron, SM, Tau and Daemons at that time.

But do continue to strawman, it continues to show that there is zero valid argument behind the "Eldar OP" opinion.

morgoth wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
When one codex makes most other codexes bad, it's called overpowered.

SW codex was bad against any army actually.
And Eldar codex was balanced against Necron, SM, Tau and Daemons at that time.

But do continue to strawman, it continues to show that there is zero valid argument behind the "Eldar OP" opinion.

You're right. Eldar are completely fine in tournament min-max cheese meta. But don't bring your average eldar list to regular games pls.

 koooaei wrote:
You're right. Eldar are completely fine in tournament min-max cheese meta. But don't bring your average eldar list to regular games pls.

Average non-tournament Eldar lists are far from OP.

There is so much bad stuff in the codex I don't see how you could have problems with a true "average" list.

There is so much bad stuff in the codex I don't see how you could have problems with a true "average" list.

only those things are elite never taken , or they are bad , compering to other eldar units. I don't seem to see those milions of eldar armies runing banshees or vypers, play with no serpents and use night spiners as their only range support unit.

What actualy it looks like is this. dude doesnt have the cash or the stores supply of WS is limited, buys only 3 serpents , plays with 3 full units of warp siders and two units of war walkers instead.

So is answer is to spend the money to buy another codex, buy another army to use as allies and then maybe some other SW dudes to make it more competitive. (How much money?)

All that just for a chance to win against an average Eldar army. Totally not OP.

 MWHistorian wrote:
So is answer is to spend the money to buy another codex, buy another army to use as allies and then maybe some other SW dudes to make it more competitive. (How much money?)

All that just for a chance to win against an average Eldar army. Totally not OP.

Correction. All for the chance to win against an average tournament Eldar army.

morgoth wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
When one codex makes most other codexes bad, it's called overpowered.

SW codex was bad against any army actually.
And Eldar codex was balanced against Necron, SM, Tau and Daemons at that time.

Well technically SM still sucked at the time until they got their update, but that's besides the point...

Also, just to be a devil's advocate, I actually managed to beat Eldar twice with my 6th ed Wolves, but that was mainly due to crazy luck and bad generalship on my opponent's part. The first time, it was his first game with the new Codex so he hadn't quite figured out Serpent Spam yet, and was more interested in jetbikes. It was a game of the Relic, but somehow I actually managed to get ahold of it and won by a single VP. I think he just kept making silly mistakes like letting me assault his bikes, but it was a pretty surprising win on my part.

The second game was a Kill Point mission, and by then he had figured out Serpent Spam. He was cheesing it up for 4 turns, annihilating me while I struggled to even get a single VP. However, he then made the idiotic mistake of assaulting my Wolf Priest plasma-star (WP with Stealth, Infiltrated, 2+ save, Plasma Pistol and Legendary Fighter I think, 10x Grey Hunters with 2 Plasma Guns and a TDA Wolf Guard with Combi-plasma) with his Farseer Jetbike squad, with a couple attached Warlocks. I ended up sweeping the squad an got 6 or 7 VPs in one blow and won in a come from behind shocker.

...but yeah, every game I've played vs Eldar, even with my other armies, has been brutal. My only chances have been through bad generalship on my opponents' part, and even then I struggle.

The problem is, discussing things like are-DAvengers-OP always comes back to 'but Serpent OP', so its hard to figure out what is and isn't op.

I was playing a footdar list the other day, and lost half my army to the top-of-1 alpha from my opponent (Ultramarines descendants). Things just kept going wrong for me, but when I finally got into assault on bottom of 2, some guy walks by and starts bitching about how I'm fielding 'Exarch Spam', and of course I was going to win, because my Banshees (only one left, after a tac squad shot it on t1) were OP, as they had battlefocus *and* shuriken pistols (everything else cept for my Rangers that had both had died).

I'm not about to stop taking the Banshees to casual games, because I know they're not broken. But between the Serpent and Banshees, there is a very wide spectrum, and I wish the Serpent would stop preempting any such conversation.

(Side note - our s6 powerfist dude is about to 50 pts, t3w1 no invuln. And not an IC.)

Makumba wrote:

There is so much bad stuff in the codex I don't see how you could have problems with a true "average" list.

only those things are elite never taken , or they are bad , compering to other eldar units. I don't seem to see those milions of eldar armies runing banshees or vypers, play with no serpents and use night spiners as their only range support unit.

What actualy it looks like is this. dude doesnt have the cash or the stores supply of WS is limited, buys only 3 serpents , plays with 3 full units of warp siders and two units of war walkers instead.

Which means you are once more comparing a rather competitive list with a badly written list, and your problem has nothing to do with the codex or the army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
...but yeah, every game I've played vs Eldar, even with my other armies, has been brutal. My only chances have been through bad generalship on my opponents' part, and even then I struggle.

Thanks for your honesty.

Will you please list your armies, so that everyone may realize that all of them were in a bad position for the bigger part of v6, not just against Eldar.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
The problem is, discussing things like are-DAvengers-OP always comes back to 'but Serpent OP', so its hard to figure out what is and isn't op.

I was playing a footdar list the other day, and lost half my army to the top-of-1 alpha from my opponent (Ultramarines descendants). Things just kept going wrong for me, but when I finally got into assault on bottom of 2, some guy walks by and starts bitching about how I'm fielding 'Exarch Spam', and of course I was going to win, because my Banshees (only one left, after a tac squad shot it on t1) were OP, as they had battlefocus *and* shuriken pistols (everything else cept for my Rangers that had both had died).

I'm not about to stop taking the Banshees to casual games, because I know they're not broken. But between the Serpent and Banshees, there is a very wide spectrum, and I wish the Serpent would stop preempting any such conversation.

(Side note - our s6 powerfist dude is about to 50 pts, t3w1 no invuln. And not an IC.)

That's really the thing that I find the most shocking.
People don't even think, compare or read the codex, it's just Eldar OP.
They have no idea how many of our units are far worse than average units in an IoM codex, etc.

They have no idea how many of our units are far worse than average units in an IoM codex, etc.

And? Does that matter when no one really takes them?

Yes some codex's have horrible internal balance, but it doesn't matter when the outward showing outright is a game breaker.

 Nivoglibina wrote:

60" twin-linked d6+1 s7 ignore cover, pinning is just over the top good.

How are you twin linking it at 60"?

That mentality right there is why people hate it. They THINK it can do everything at once, but it can't. Every gun on that thing has a different range so you are wasting shots if you use the longest range. It does not fire 14 60" twin linked bright lances that ignore cover, no matter how many 6's you think the other guy can roll.

The twinlinked 60" argument gets trotted out every time. If it's 60" there's exactly 1 gun firing and its AP-. If the serpent has a scatter laser then it is all but useless against AV13 and utterly useless against AV14. My vindi's and preds don't expose side armour, so go ahead and ignore my obscured out of arc +1 cover save on AV13 front. If you want to hit rear armour, feel free to come into tactical objective holding krak grenade assault range. I'll trade my cheaper tank for your if you want to not shoot to do your 12+18" (not 30" in one go) move on your 7" long hull.

I expect a crystal target 1 shot matrix guy to pop up now - please include the price of that in every "Wah WS OP" thread you use in the future if you assume it has it here. :p







Automatically Appended Next Post:

ThatSwellFella wrote:
To answer the question: They are fragile specialist army, in a manner that they have wave serpents which cost 110ish points less than a LR and: lose 2 AV
get: jink, semirending S6 guns, 4 TL shots that TL EVERY THING if they scorr ONLY one hit, AND a pinning 60inch ignores cover S7 D6+1, and if you choose not tho shoot the latter, all pens are glances on 2+ and they also have OS unlike the land raiders (apart from BT crudader squad with dedicated transport LRCs who can roll out 5 OS LRCs, which then get demolished by most other things, unlike the WS spam.)
Say 5 LRS WOULD WIN vs 8 serpents, but that is why you take say 4,5 of them and a wraithknight..
If you take spirit seer then you get fragile troops that are toughness 6 (plague marines, which with heldrake are only things keeping CSM dex from being utter poo, suddenly don't look so cool now)
Also jetbikes that are better marines with better stats
Balanced specialist glasshammer army indeed
<end sarcasm>
ALSO: i once watched a CSM VS Eldar game: CSM got tabled by turn 4 IIRC. Then the CSM PLAYER gets this idea to swap armies. The csm player wins eldar player once he got the eldar army (and no eldar player had no experience with csm and vice versa)

If the typical serpent was 110 that would be OP. The SL/SC/HF/movethroughcover ones I face cost 165 or so, on top of the 110 points of 10 guardians, 1 lanceand T3 5+ or 65 points for 5 DA T3 4+

DA can take 5 landraider, move them in lockstep and have a 4++ invuln the whole time with the PFG. If you can't kill a single WK your list if F-ed and nothing else in the list you mentioned will touch them. Not your fault your book is PFG based, but don't pretend you don't have an option.

As for the army swap, why should bad list beat a good list, when both players are unfamiliar with it? If I face you with an unbound all banshee army, do you expect to beat me with your list? If I then beat you, does that mean banshees are OP too?

/strawman.

As for the army swap, why should bad list beat a good list, when both players are unfamiliar with it?

Because that demonstrates the point: It's the list. Not the general. If Good General with Bad List can beat Bad General with Good List, then the armies involved are not OP, as it comes down to player skill. If Bad General with Bad List loses to Bad General with Good List... it's the list, not the Generals, because the Generals are balanced.

I don't think you know what a strawman argument is.

 Psienesis wrote:

As for the army swap, why should bad list beat a good list, when both players are unfamiliar with it?

Because that demonstrates the point: It's the list. Not the general. If Good General with Bad List can beat Bad General with Good List, then the armies involved are not OP, as it comes down to player skill. If Bad General with Bad List loses to Bad General with Good List... it's the list, not the Generals, because the Generals are balanced.

I don't think you know what a strawman argument is.

Ok, so I'll put you down for a "yes" on banshee's being OP. That or you don't know the difference between a list and a codex.

I will say that the wave serpent is much more forgiving of bad generalship and deployment, but that's something that a good general accounts for anyway. A bad general with forgiving units (side av 11+,*3+ armor, etc) is punished a lot less or deploying without cover or LoS consideration that a T3 5+ army doing the same. A genuinely good player will account for that though so it doesn't make the army OP anymore than a 3+ save does on troop units.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

As for the army swap, why should bad list beat a good list, when both players are unfamiliar with it?

Because that demonstrates the point: It's the list. Not the general. If Good General with Bad List can beat Bad General with Good List, then the armies involved are not OP, as it comes down to player skill. If Bad General with Bad List loses to Bad General with Good List... it's the list, not the Generals, because the Generals are balanced.

I don't think you know what a strawman argument is.

Ok, so I'll put you down for a "yes" on banshee's being OP. That or you don't know the difference between a list and a codex.

I will say that the wave serpent is much more forgiving of bad generalship and deployment, but that's something that a good general accounts for anyway. A bad general with forgiving units (side av 11+,*3+ armor, etc) is punished a lot less or deploying without cover or LoS consideration that a T3 5+ army doing the same. A genuinely good player will account for that though so it doesn't make the army OP anymore than a 3+ save does on troop units.

Howling Banshees are horribly bad - having played with them at the weekend! - Wave Serpents are horribly OP - I will not use them and as we allow Falcons as DT in our games I use them.

Sadly they are the two extremes of the Spectrum that needed to be addressed - but there is zero interest from GW in doing this and whilst most people agree WS are broken, a few other people who are mostly fellow Eldar players I note, scream in pain when this is mentioned....................then complain that everyone else is whining about their fair and balanced units............despite the mass of evidence against this view.

bad general with forgiving units (side av 11+,*3+ armor, etc) is punished a lot less or deploying without cover or LoS consideration that a T3 5+ army doing the same

you mean a T3, 4+ army in AV 12 side armour right?

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

As for the army swap, why should bad list beat a good list, when both players are unfamiliar with it?

Because that demonstrates the point: It's the list. Not the general. If Good General with Bad List can beat Bad General with Good List, then the armies involved are not OP, as it comes down to player skill. If Bad General with Bad List loses to Bad General with Good List... it's the list, not the Generals, because the Generals are balanced.

I don't think you know what a strawman argument is.

Ok, so I'll put you down for a "yes" on banshee's being OP. That or you don't know the difference between a list and a codex.

I will say that the wave serpent is much more forgiving of bad generalship and deployment, but that's something that a good general accounts for anyway. A bad general with forgiving units (side av 11+,*3+ armor, etc) is punished a lot less or deploying without cover or LoS consideration that a T3 5+ army doing the same. A genuinely good player will account for that though so it doesn't make the army OP anymore than a 3+ save does on troop units.

Notice that they also pay quite a bit more for those 3+ armour saves compared to those T3 5+ units... in a way, you could say that having greater numbers is far more forgiving. Also, in cover versus AP3 weapons, a Marine is only slightly better off than a Guardian.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

As for the army swap, why should bad list beat a good list, when both players are unfamiliar with it?

Because that demonstrates the point: It's the list. Not the general. If Good General with Bad List can beat Bad General with Good List, then the armies involved are not OP, as it comes down to player skill. If Bad General with Bad List loses to Bad General with Good List... it's the list, not the Generals, because the Generals are balanced.

I don't think you know what a strawman argument is.

Ok, so I'll put you down for a "yes" on banshee's being OP. That or you don't know the difference between a list and a codex.

I will say that the wave serpent is much more forgiving of bad generalship and deployment, but that's something that a good general accounts for anyway. A bad general with forgiving units (side av 11+,*3+ armor, etc) is punished a lot less or deploying without cover or LoS consideration that a T3 5+ army doing the same. A genuinely good player will account for that though so it doesn't make the army OP anymore than a 3+ save does on troop units.

Can't speak to Banshees specifically, as I don't play Eldar (and never see anyone fielding them these days), but the overall concept remains true.

If you cherry-pick the bad units out of a Codex, the units that no one outside of fluff-specific, campaign-centered lists (such as someone playing 40K the RPG Wargame) then, sure, it's easy to say "the Codex isn't OP!"... but you're ignoring all of the auto-include units in the rest of the Codex that make the Codex OP. If the units that are taken in the vast majority of TAC lists are the same units that show up in the top-contending Tournament lists... there's a problem with the Codex as a whole. It's been written for a certain style of play in mind (tournaments, specifically winning them), whereas other Codices have not.

While 1 bad apple can spoil a bunch, 1 good apple in a bushel of bad ones does not redeem the whole lot. Banshees being under-powered does not, in any way, make the rest of the Codex not-OP. Especially since, if they vanished out of the Codex tomorrow, no one would really care.

Is this still going?

Yes Wave Serpent apologists keep saying because they have Howling Banshees it balances out the Wave Serpent.

eh...

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
/strawman.

Why do you keep using that word? I don't think it means what you think it means.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Previous to all the skyfire ruled units...


Necrons have flayed ones which suck, so we're not OP. Enjoy my flying circus filled with absolutely no flayed ones.

ThatSwellFella wrote:

 Weazel wrote:
Wave Serpents, Warp Spiders, Wraithknights. Avoid using those (at least in any spammy fashion) and you probably won't end up being TFG. Oh and a jetbike farseer/autarch with a mantle is a pain in the butt. 2++ rerollables are something that should not exist in this game.

it is rerollable 2+ COVER save, someone was cheating hard... all it takes is 3 legion of the damned meltas and what mantleseer?

Yes, let me go grab all of that Ignores Cover that my Necrons have.

My biggest problem with Morgoth is he has no clue what balance is. He also apparently never played during 5th edition where everyone cried about space wolves being OP using that same codex he called bad.

I have enough Space Wolves (over 10000pts now) to field anything I want short of .. land raider spam I guess? If I have to buy a completely different army to compete, even with my wolverine dread and santa sleigh of doom... then there's something wrong with your army, now isn't there?

Morgoth: It doesn't matter how bad 1 or 2 particular units are, if no one takes them. That's my point earlier that flew over your head like a Necron croissant.

 Pyeatt wrote:

Morgoth: It doesn't matter how bad 1 or 2 particular units are, if no one takes them. That's my point earlier that flew over your head like a Necron croissant.

Le giggle.

I second this, obviously.

 Pyeatt wrote:
My biggest problem with Morgoth is he has no clue what balance is. He also apparently never played during 5th edition where everyone cried about space wolves being OP using that same codex he called bad.

I have enough Space Wolves (over 10000pts now) to field anything I want short of .. land raider spam I guess? If I have to buy a completely different army to compete, even with my wolverine dread and santa sleigh of doom... then there's something wrong with your army, now isn't there?

Morgoth: It doesn't matter how bad 1 or 2 particular units are, if no one takes them. That's my point earlier that flew over your head like a Necron croissant.

Remember that Morgorth ignores anyone and everyone who has a coherent argument against his massively unblanced world view just like his beloved Serpents ignore cover.

 Pyeatt wrote:
My biggest problem with Morgoth is he has no clue what balance is. He also apparently never played during 5th edition where everyone cried about space wolves being OP using that same codex he called bad.

I have enough Space Wolves (over 10000pts now) to field anything I want short of .. land raider spam I guess? If I have to buy a completely different army to compete, even with my wolverine dread and santa sleigh of doom... then there's something wrong with your army, now isn't there?

Morgoth: It doesn't matter how bad 1 or 2 particular units are, if no one takes them. That's my point earlier that flew over your head like a Necron croissant.

Morgoth doesn't have a clue on how the game is played. He thinks the Death Ray hits flyers. He somehow argues that his wave serpents should get jinks, even when his not eligible to declare them. He thought vehicles exploded on 5+ with AP2 weapons on 7th edition. He constantly talks about how bad his Wave Serpent is, because somehow, his mysterious friend has these long fangs that keeps blowing up his 1 Wave Serpent and if he Jinks, that Wave Serpent is useless and essentially a waste of points. So in Morgoth logic 1 Jinking Wave Serpent = All other Wave Serpents are also somehow useless and in conclussion, the Wave Serpent is balanced... I guess?

 Zewrath wrote:

 Pyeatt wrote:
My biggest problem with Morgoth is he has no clue what balance is. He also apparently never played during 5th edition where everyone cried about space wolves being OP using that same codex he called bad.

I have enough Space Wolves (over 10000pts now) to field anything I want short of .. land raider spam I guess? If I have to buy a completely different army to compete, even with my wolverine dread and santa sleigh of doom... then there's something wrong with your army, now isn't there?

Morgoth: It doesn't matter how bad 1 or 2 particular units are, if no one takes them. That's my point earlier that flew over your head like a Necron croissant.

Morgoth doesn't have a clue on how the game is played. He thinks the Death Ray hits flyers. He somehow argues that his wave serpents should get jinks, even when his not eligible to declare them. He thought vehicles exploded on 5+ with AP2 weapons on 7th edition. He constantly talks about how bad his Wave Serpent is, because somehow, his mysterious friend has these long fangs that keeps blowing up his 1 Wave Serpent and if he Jinks, that Wave Serpent is useless and essentially a waste of points. So in Morgoth logic 1 Jinking Wave Serpent = All other Wave Serpents are also somehow useless and in conclussion, the Wave Serpent is balanced... I guess?

Omg guys, while on the Morgoth topic, I just saw a post in another thread (yes, this is relevant to what you just said) giving someone advice for a Necron list (Ghost Ark can apparently add on more warriors, so start with min squads and save points), and when people argued with him, he said you better go check the codex. Like, best night ever.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:

 Pyeatt wrote:
My biggest problem with Morgoth is he has no clue what balance is. He also apparently never played during 5th edition where everyone cried about space wolves being OP using that same codex he called bad.

I have enough Space Wolves (over 10000pts now) to field anything I want short of .. land raider spam I guess? If I have to buy a completely different army to compete, even with my wolverine dread and santa sleigh of doom... then there's something wrong with your army, now isn't there?

Morgoth: It doesn't matter how bad 1 or 2 particular units are, if no one takes them. That's my point earlier that flew over your head like a Necron croissant.

Morgoth doesn't have a clue on how the game is played. He thinks the Death Ray hits flyers. He somehow argues that his wave serpents should get jinks, even when his not eligible to declare them. He thought vehicles exploded on 5+ with AP2 weapons on 7th edition. He constantly talks about how bad his Wave Serpent is, because somehow, his mysterious friend has these long fangs that keeps blowing up his 1 Wave Serpent and if he Jinks, that Wave Serpent is useless and essentially a waste of points. So in Morgoth logic 1 Jinking Wave Serpent = All other Wave Serpents are also somehow useless and in conclussion, the Wave Serpent is balanced... I guess?

Omg guys, while on the Morgoth topic, I just saw a post in another thread (yes, this is relevant to what you just said) giving someone advice for a Necron list (Ghost Ark can apparently add on more warriors, so start with min squads and save points), and when people argued with him, he said you better go check the codex. Like, best night ever.

can we start a specific thread listing Morgorths errors - or is that against the forum rules He has set his system tp ignore several of us as it is.....