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 krodarklorr wrote:
Omg guys, while on the Morgoth topic, I just saw a post in another thread (yes, this is relevant to what you just said) giving someone advice for a Necron list (Ghost Ark can apparently add on more warriors, so start with min squads and save points), and when people argued with him, he said you better go check the codex. Like, best night ever.

Apparently the guy who pointed it to me read it wrong, and I read it wrong afterwards.
My bad.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:

 Pyeatt wrote:
My biggest problem with Morgoth is he has no clue what balance is. He also apparently never played during 5th edition where everyone cried about space wolves being OP using that same codex he called bad.

I have enough Space Wolves (over 10000pts now) to field anything I want short of .. land raider spam I guess? If I have to buy a completely different army to compete, even with my wolverine dread and santa sleigh of doom... then there's something wrong with your army, now isn't there?

Morgoth: It doesn't matter how bad 1 or 2 particular units are, if no one takes them. That's my point earlier that flew over your head like a Necron croissant.

Morgoth doesn't have a clue on how the game is played. He thinks the Death Ray hits flyers. He somehow argues that his wave serpents should get jinks, even when his not eligible to declare them. He thought vehicles exploded on 5+ with AP2 weapons on 7th edition. He constantly talks about how bad his Wave Serpent is, because somehow, his mysterious friend has these long fangs that keeps blowing up his 1 Wave Serpent and if he Jinks, that Wave Serpent is useless and essentially a waste of points. So in Morgoth logic 1 Jinking Wave Serpent = All other Wave Serpents are also somehow useless and in conclussion, the Wave Serpent is balanced... I guess?

Omg guys, while on the Morgoth topic, I just saw a post in another thread (yes, this is relevant to what you just said) giving someone advice for a Necron list (Ghost Ark can apparently add on more warriors, so start with min squads and save points), and when people argued with him, he said you better go check the codex. Like, best night ever.

can we start a specific thread listing Morgorths errors - or is that against the forum rules He has set his system tp ignore several of us as it is.....

I've felt as though I'll get punished for talking about him as I have, but starting a whole thread would be bad. And if he can't talk to us, good riddance imo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

morgoth wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Omg guys, while on the Morgoth topic, I just saw a post in another thread (yes, this is relevant to what you just said) giving someone advice for a Necron list (Ghost Ark can apparently add on more warriors, so start with min squads and save points), and when people argued with him, he said you better go check the codex. Like, best night ever.

Not my fault Necron players don't even read the Necron FAQ.

How can you even pretend your opinion on the rules is worth a cent if you don't even read them.

Dude, it's in the codex. It doesn't work like that. I've read the codex through and through numerous times, heck I don't even look at it when I play anymore. The FAQ just cleared up some wording issues and made sure it worked how it was intended to work. Which, was not by adding more to a unit beyond it's starting size.

I have often wondered how Morgoth can even look at the forums. It's like, 2/3 of them must be on ignore.

Makumba wrote:

There is so much bad stuff in the codex I don't see how you could have problems with a true "average" list.

only those things are elite never taken , or they are bad , compering to other eldar units. I don't seem to see those milions of eldar armies runing banshees or vypers, play with no serpents and use night spiners as their only range support unit.

What actualy it looks like is this. dude doesnt have the cash or the stores supply of WS is limited, buys only 3 serpents , plays with 3 full units of warp siders and two units of war walkers instead.

So your complaint is that power gamers were attracted to Eldar because Seerstar and Beaststar were godlike before ?

I'm sure it would be so much better if they were attracted to another army.

morgoth wrote:

Makumba wrote:

There is so much bad stuff in the codex I don't see how you could have problems with a true "average" list.

only those things are elite never taken , or they are bad , compering to other eldar units. I don't seem to see those milions of eldar armies runing banshees or vypers, play with no serpents and use night spiners as their only range support unit.

What actualy it looks like is this. dude doesnt have the cash or the stores supply of WS is limited, buys only 3 serpents , plays with 3 full units of warp siders and two units of war walkers instead.

So your complaint is that power gamers were attracted to Eldar because Seerstar and Beaststar were godlike before ?

I'm sure it would be so much better if they were attracted to another army.

Are those really, like legit, the only things you think make/made Eldar OP? I mean, in all seriousness here....

 Pyeatt wrote:
My biggest problem with Morgoth is he has no clue what balance is. He also apparently never played during 5th edition where everyone cried about space wolves being OP using that same codex he called bad.

I have enough Space Wolves (over 10000pts now) to field anything I want short of .. land raider spam I guess? If I have to buy a completely different army to compete, even with my wolverine dread and santa sleigh of doom... then there's something wrong with your army, now isn't there?

Morgoth: It doesn't matter how bad 1 or 2 particular units are, if no one takes them. That's my point earlier that flew over your head like a Necron croissant.

We're in v7 now you know. with a new codex. which lets you compete with your Santa Sleigh of Doom.
What are you complaining about again ?

When people say "Eldar OP" and "The Eldar codex is full of amazing units", it's a good time to remind them how bad half of the units in that "insanely good codex" are.
You can pretend it's just one or two units, you can pretend nobody plays them, it doesn't change the fact that this codex you like to call OP also has horrible choices.
Choices that make Flayed Ones look good.

morgoth wrote:

When people say "Eldar OP" and "The Eldar codex is full of amazing units", it's a good time to remind them how bad half of the units in that "insanely good codex" are.
You can pretend it's just one or two units, you can pretend nobody plays them, it doesn't change the fact that this codex you like to call OP also has horrible choices.

Howling Banshees is the main one I've heard. Other than that, what else is there that's bad? Even if it's not "competitive", I'm sure you can take the non-competitive choices out of any other codex, and Eldar's would still be better. That's one of my main complaints about them. Most of your codex, is far from bad. There's a difference between bad and not competitive.

 krodarklorr wrote:

morgoth wrote:

When people say "Eldar OP" and "The Eldar codex is full of amazing units", it's a good time to remind them how bad half of the units in that "insanely good codex" are.
You can pretend it's just one or two units, you can pretend nobody plays them, it doesn't change the fact that this codex you like to call OP also has horrible choices.

Howling Banshees is the main one I've heard. Other than that, what else is there that's bad? Even if it's not "competitive", I'm sure you can take the non-competitive choices out of any other codex, and Eldar's would still be better. That's one of my main complaints about them. Most of your codex, is far from bad. There's a difference between bad and not competitive.

Agreed - OUR Eldar codex has a great range of units with lots of interesting options and opportunities - which is a shame that it so often ends up being Cheese Serpent spam ;(

I fielded my recently purchased Serpent for the first time on my weekly Wednesday game and put Scorpions in it. My mate who plays Chaos wasn't looking forward to it coming in but he played two Hell Brutes with Cultist meat shield and that seemed to worked really well against it and the Lord I also fielded. Like I have seem some people mention in here Bladestorm was the main problem for him.

Before the game I was worried that the Eldar might be a little over powered but at the end of the game he had more models in play than I did but I took the points to win, just. He didn't seem to have too much trouble taking down my big stuff.

Franko wrote:
I fielded my recently purchased Serpent for the first time on my weekly Wednesday game and put Scorpions in it. My mate who plays Chaos wasn't looking forward to it coming in but he played two Hell Brutes with Cultist meat shield and that seemed to worked really well against it and the Lord I also fielded. Like I have seem some people mention in here Bladestorm was the main problem for him.

Before the game I was worried that the Eldar might be a little over powered but at the end of the game he had more models in play than I did but I took the points to win, just. He didn't seem to have too much trouble taking down my big stuff.

I don't see how the meat shield of Cultists would have been an issue, especially if it's the formation where the Helbrute gets a 3+ cover save. You know, cover, that one mechanic WS don't give two craps about. I see that Helbrute living maybe one turn.

Franko wrote:
I fielded my recently purchased Serpent for the first time on my weekly Wednesday game and put Scorpions in it. My mate who plays Chaos wasn't looking forward to it coming in but he played two Hell Brutes with Cultist meat shield and that seemed to worked really well against it and the Lord I also fielded. Like I have seem some people mention in here Bladestorm was the main problem for him.

Before the game I was worried that the Eldar might be a little over powered but at the end of the game he had more models in play than I did but I took the points to win, just. He didn't seem to have too much trouble taking down my big stuff.

Sounds like fun

Although usually the WS is transporting missile troops - So F Dragons, Dire Avengers and the like a the Scorpions can't assault out of it.....

As mentioned the Shield gun ignores cover so you can shoot past the cultists.

One WS (although its still too good) can often be handeled but multiples are to coin a phrase the hard counter to fun

I didn't deactivate the shield though as he had at least two anti-armour weapons in range and I took advantage of the 2+ glance ability while transporting my Scorpions to their target area. I will admit that at the time I didn't think about the ignore cover ability until after the game but even so I still think I'd have left the shield up, more for the safety of the chaps inside.

Franko wrote:
I didn't deactivate the shield though as he had at least two anti-armour weapons in range and I took advantage of the 2+ glance ability while transporting my Scorpions to their target area. I will admit that at the time I didn't think about the ignore cover ability until after the game but even so I still think I'd have left the shield up, more for the safety of the chaps inside.

Interesting - did the Scorpions work as they could not assault - did you use them for objective capture?

This article pretty adequately sums up the problem with Wave Serpents:

http://www.3plusplus.net/2013/07/game-changers-the-wave-serpent/



Other DTs (and most heavy support options) don't even come close to approximating the thing's firepower.

I fielded a 10-man DA unit inside an EML Serpent without a Cannon. Used it to protect my DAs until late game, where they were able to really lock down the center (where the Relic still was). Using it as the flying FU to gunlines, as a transport not a gunship, it performed great, but didn't really feel OP.

Only shot the shield once, to remove something granting shrouding to just about everything. And the EML I think only did one wound all game. But it allowed me to keep my troops ready for action. It did die to a bunch of s8 ignores cover followed up by a 10" assault though. Won me the game.

Point being, Serpents can be reasonable. But look at most batreps and all you see tends to be Davu.

Bharring wrote:
I fielded a 10-man DA unit inside an EML Serpent without a Cannon. Used it to protect my DAs until late game, where they were able to really lock down the center (where the Relic still was). Using it as the flying FU to gunlines, as a transport not a gunship, it performed great, but didn't really feel OP.

Only shot the shield once, to remove something granting shrouding to just about everything. And the EML I think only did one wound all game. But it allowed me to keep my troops ready for action. It did die to a bunch of s8 ignores cover followed up by a 10" assault though. Won me the game.

Point being, Serpents can be reasonable. But look at most batreps and all you see tends to be Davu.

Indeed, they can be reasonable. Depends on how many you're running and how you're using them though... and even then, they have the potential to get pretty crazy. As with many things though, they get exponentially better the more you take.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Franko wrote:
I didn't deactivate the shield though as he had at least two anti-armour weapons in range and I took advantage of the 2+ glance ability while transporting my Scorpions to their target area. I will admit that at the time I didn't think about the ignore cover ability until after the game but even so I still think I'd have left the shield up, more for the safety of the chaps inside.

Interesting - did the Scorpions work as they could not assault - did you use them for objective capture?

Yeah, I unloaded them to grab the objective in the 5th turn to sneak the points ahead for the win. That objective just happened to be in his deployment zone too
As it was a late start we both decided at the start of the game to finish at the end of the 5th without seeing if it would continue.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:

I will say that the wave serpent is much more forgiving of bad generalship and deployment, but that's something that a good general accounts for anyway. A bad general with forgiving units (side av 11+,*3+ armor, etc) is punished a lot less or deploying without cover or LoS consideration that a T3 5+ army doing the same. A genuinely good player will account for that though so it doesn't make the army OP anymore than a 3+ save does on troop units.

Notice that they also pay quite a bit more for those 3+ armour saves compared to those T3 5+ units... in a way, you could say that having greater numbers is far more forgiving. Also, in cover versus AP3 weapons, a Marine is only slightly better off than a Guardian.

... And Krak grenades. And ATSKNF. Few people think that last one alone should only be 1pt (SM vs CSM). Seems like CSM is the better point of comparison, to me.

18".

Yeah suddenly battle tactics aren't a thing and they can't dance out of rapid fire range are firing.

DA have mulched my CSM's armor save's.

So if you let the Eldar player decide what you do, you might lose?

CSMs win if they can get into rapid fire range, if they can stay out of 18" (either using terrain or just about any heavy weapon), if they assault, or if they coordinate to ensure the first volley is strong enough to tip the scales via force concentration.

Eldar win only if you just let them duck in and out of your rapid-fire threat range. Do something about it

They might rend your armor a couple times, but they are only 4+. If they're that big a problem, take a Heavy Bolter even. Or cut off their retreat.

Regardless, you certainly get first salvo.

DAs can be scary used right, but that's a good thing. They shouldn't lose to CSM in *every* setup.

Bharring wrote:
DAs can be scary used right, but that's a good thing. They shouldn't lose to CSM in *every* setup.

But if the Eldar can ever potentially win a match up, ever, then they are obviously OP, because Eldar. It's not like Chaos has AP4 S8 Hades autocannons mounted on walkers that can march up and smash face... Oh wait, they do. That means the Eldar player has fire dragons to melta those vehicles. Unless you have cultist bubble wrap in which case they naturally have guardian spam or night spinners with those fire dragons. Or Wraith scythes. What's that? Land raiders and bubble wrap cultists? The Eldar player obviously would have brought their Wraith Knight and bright lance war walker list that day...


Edit: Wow. I thought the facepalm would be a big enough indicator of sarcasm, but the hate here is strong.
My comment on the Autocannon was me trying to underscore Bahr's point that Dire Avengers shouldn't lose (or win) in EVERY matchup. Hell even banshee's can do OK as a counter charge unit...

My mocking was directed at the Schrodinger's lists people hate on, where the Eldar list morphs mid game into whatever is the optimal unit for that match up. Wah wha eldar Holofields and bright lances. Which the Nova winner had 0 in his list.

Chaos got hit hard by the nerf to the helldrake which was the main thing keeping them competitive at the end of 6th. The hell drake was scary with 360 torrent, but so long as you strictly stuck to LoS and angles (including vertical) it was at least manageable when limited to 3 due to reserves.

Eldar players saying chaos is op?
Chaos!?
Bro, do you even 40k?

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:

Bharring wrote:
DAs can be scary used right, but that's a good thing. They shouldn't lose to CSM in *every* setup.

But if the Eldar can ever potentially win a match up, ever, then they are obviously OP, because Eldar. It's not like Chaos has AP4 S8 Hades autocannons mounted on walkers that can march up and smash face... Oh wait, they do. That means the Eldar player has fire dragons to melta those vehicles. Unless you have cultist bubble wrap in which case they naturally have guardian spam or night spinners with those fire dragons. Or Wraith scythes. What's that? Land raiders and bubble wrap cultists? The Eldar player obviously would have brought their Wraith Knight and bright lance war walker list that day...

March up and smash..Are you saying the WS3/A2/I3/S6 Forgefiends are actually going to do well in melee combat? That they are OP with their AV12/HP3 BS3 firing selves?

Also for bubble wrapping: They are Daemons, they already have a 5++, it doesn't help them as much as you think

Land raiders and bubble wrapping: So you are saying to simply keep them back and fire? Or are you going to desperately try to march 6" D6 every turn in a coherent formation while the land raiders payload settles down inside it for X turns because you can't speed forward since you need that list.

All I see Eldar take is Wave Serpents, Warwalkers, and Wraith Knights, it's all they really need, heck now they can take a WWP firedragon with pin perfect accuracy for melting said land raider as well.

Eldar Players saying Chaos is OP, you guys are deflecting so hard that your shield's cracked.

CSMs win if they can get into rapid fire range, if they can stay out of 18" (either using terrain or just about any heavy weapon), if they assault, or if they coordinate to ensure the first volley is strong enough to tip the scales via force concentration.

Eldar win only if you just let them duck in and out of your rapid-fire threat range. Do something about it

They might rend your armor a couple times, but they are only 4+. If they're that big a problem, take a Heavy Bolter even. Or cut off their retreat.

Regardless, you certainly get first salvo.

How would you get the first salvo? Rhinos vs Wave Serpents = DA is getting the drop, and so how are they getting into rapid fire range if they stay out of 18"? Assaulting I'll give you is one of the main measures of dealing with DA, but I've had so many failed charges because of bad dice while the Fleet footed Eldar Kite around.

Also heavy bolters on CSM are rather a waste since they are mostly mid-field specialists. Though I stopped using my CSM after a while and stuck with gunline noise marines, or NM with Melee/Siren for general mid-field.

To clarify once again, Eldar are OP, and their dex pretty much outclasses the CSM dex easily.

That being said, I was trying to just compare DAs vs Marines. And chose CSMs, because they cost the same. The Serpent just hands the matchup to Eldar on its own. But on foot, there is no reason DAs should get first volley. Battlefocus helps for d6 (refillable), but with an 18:24 disadvantage, the Marines would have to basically give them first salvo.

As for the heavy bolter, any heavy weapon works for the point. Avengers are very focused in what they do. Punish them for their limitations.

As for getting into rapid fire range, force them to battle focus towards you to shoot, or corner them, or pull them through difficult terrain. Or even disengage and go for something else. If you try to run them down in the open, you're playing their game.

The thing to remember is that, in this matchup, you're not the super-elite troop. Each one of them is worth just as much as each one of you. I'm outnumbered by CSM all the time when I play Swordwind.

When it comes to killing footdar, t3 is huge. The boltgun is a scary deadly weapon to footdar.

. But on foot, there is no reason DAs should get first volley.

The problem is that assumes an unrealistic standard, there might be footslogging DA, but it's just odd to assume down in a vacuum to begin with.

As for the heavy bolter, any heavy weapon works for the point. Avengers are very focused in what they do. Punish them for their limitations.

If one could tailor midmatch yes, but the problem is your lists (assuming TAC to begin with) will be decided before one enters the field, and your CSM most likely won't be toting one singular heavy weapon, it would be an ineffective waste of points with 10+ units to do so.

As for getting into rapid fire range, force them to battle focus towards you to shoot, or corner them, or pull them through difficult terrain. Or even disengage and go for something else. If you try to run them down in the open, you're playing their game.

The first has been good, cornering them/difficult is far more difficult with their fleet, they'll run through DT better then you do, and disengaging is not always an answer

When it comes to killing footdar, t3 is huge. The boltgun is a scary deadly weapon to footdar.

Never played footdar (Eldar players have usually been WAAC around my area), but if boltguns scare footdar I'm pretty sure every single thing would considering every army in the game packs good shooting equivalents to that.

DA could probably be a few points less, but then one has to remember that no codex is a vacuum and they still have excellent psyker support with their abilities and other elements of the army.

Akiasura wrote:
Eldar players saying chaos is op?
Chaos!?
Bro, do you even 40k?

Ignore him, he has posted Eldar deflection posts all day with Morgoth-level of denial.

Chaos are OP.
Okay, I've now heard everything. I have seen the end of the internets.

Is it more that Eldar players are WAAC players now, or that WAAC players are playing Eldar now?

The 2nd of course. Some people conflate it otherwise though, hence why we get all these people saying "why won't anyone play against my Eldar, I only have 2 Wave Serpents!"