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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
but they at least are marginally cheaper and have marginally more firepower per point...

Seeing just how much they loose, for so few points… not worth it.

Akiasura wrote:
To be fair, their codex is very old, relatively speaking, isn't it?

No. It was released October 2013. That is not really old by GW standards. For reference, Dark Eldar had to wait for 12 years.

I wouldn't call what they got a codex, but considering the rapid release date, a year old is old nowadays.
I did think it was back in 2012 though.
I'm well aware of their old release schedule.

Quick reminder - Rule #1 here is NOT optional.

Thanks!

I personally think the bolter is what it is. Basic. It isn't really any weaker than most other "basic" weapons. S4 AP5 is more or less middle of the road. No one else gets that big of an advantage over Tac Marines weapon wise when you compare what other equipment they carry. With the complaint being that marines can't take out vehicles or MCs from shooting, I have to say I agree they can't; however, they CAN take them out in CC. What about Krak grenades? S6 AP4 right? Can't those be used against MCs and vehicles (admittedly in CC while lobbing one in on the charge). I'm not saying it will by pass armour saves, or cause an explodes result on the damage chart, but it will make a dent. I've had chaos space marines nuke a riptide in CC with krak grenades before. Remember the points for a marine are being payed for more than just the bolter. Look at all their gear as well, not just the one that stands out the most. Just my two cents.

Noc

My humble grey hunters think otherwise, after they took down a fresh, on flying, daemon prince, a complete squad of bloodletters and a complete squad of pink horrors, prove the effectiveness of the bolter (they where only 7 grey hunters, they lose 2 plasma hunters and the wg with the combiplasma)
My sternguard (with only one heavy flamer and iron hands CT) show their value too, killing a squad of 5 khorne hounds, one squad of daemonettes and other squad of bloodletters.
I was figthing a daemon factory, practically the rapid fire bolters keep on the knees the daemon army (i was running a combination of thunderwolve calvary and SM allies with sternguards and sniper scouts).
My calvary took down the ugly things (one soulgrinder and several squads of pink horrors and a bloodthisters) and my infantry took down everything else.
So, i would say: bolter for the win

Nocturus wrote:
I personally think the bolter is what it is. Basic. It isn't really any weaker than most other "basic" weapons. S4 AP5 is more or less middle of the road. No one else gets that big of an advantage over Tac Marines weapon wise when you compare what other equipment they carry. With the complaint being that marines can't take out vehicles or MCs from shooting, I have to say I agree they can't; however, they CAN take them out in CC. What about Krak grenades? S6 AP4 right? Can't those be used against MCs and vehicles (admittedly in CC while lobbing one in on the charge). I'm not saying it will by pass armour saves, or cause an explodes result on the damage chart, but it will make a dent. I've had chaos space marines nuke a riptide in CC with krak grenades before. Remember the points for a marine are being payed for more than just the bolter. Look at all their gear as well, not just the one that stands out the most. Just my two cents.

Noc

They're not the only troops with Kraks, mind you.

I agree they are not the only troop to carry krak grenades. Ok, lets do a comparison using the codexes I have available to me right now on just basic troops no upgrades. All modifications will be based upon the Tac marine itself since most people know its points and stats:

Fire Warrior: -2WS -1BS -1S -1T -2I -1Ld +1Sv / Basic Weapon: Pulse Rifle +1S +6" range / No assault Grenades, no krak grenades, +defensive grenades / Special rules: +Supporting Fire, -ATSKNF, -Chapter Tactics, - Combat Squads / Point cost -5

Ork Boy: -2BS -1S -2I +1A -2Ld +3Sv / Basic Weapon: Slugga +1 AP -12" Range, Gains free CC weapon / No assault Grenades, no krak grenades / Special rules: +'Ere We GO!, +Furious Charge, +Mob Rule, -ATSKNF, -Chapter Tactics, - Combat Squads / Point Cost -8

Tempestus Scion: -1WS -1S -1T -1I - 1Ld +1Sv / Basic Weapon: Hot-Shot Lasgun -1S -2AP -6" Range / Special rules: +Deep Strike, +Move Through Cover, -ATSKNF, -Chapter Tactics, - Combat Squads / Point Cost -2

Battle Sister: -1WS -1S -1T -1I / Basic Weapon: Bolter / Special Rules: +Act of Faith, +Shield of Faith, -ATSKNF, -Chapter Tactics, - Combat Squads / Point Cost -2

Kroot: -1BS -1S -1T -1I -1Ld / Basic Weapon: Kroot Rifle -1AP / No Grenades / Special Rules: +Infiltrate, +Move Through Cover, +Stealth (Forests), -ATSKNF, -Chapter Tactics, - Combat Squads / Point Cost -8

Chaos Space Marine: Identical Except - Special Rules: -ATSKNF, -Chapter Tactics, - Combat Squads / Point Cost -1

Chaos Cultist: -1WS -1BS -1S -1T -1I -1Ld +3Sv / Basic Weapon: Autopistol -1S NO AP, Gains Free CC weapon / No Grenades / Special Rules: -ATSKNF, -Chapter Tactics, - Combat Squads / Point Cost -10

Now using those as some basic examples. How does the Tac Marine compare to them? His stats are better than all of them with the exception of the CSM, who is only 1 point cheaper and loses all of the special abilities. This is why I don't see a problem with the bolter. Yes, it is basic, but the delivery system is elite. So if we say the Tac marine is priced wrong based upon the bolter alone, then all of these are wrong, in which case, there isn't any reason to complain because we're all in the same boat!

Noc

The Scion will match the SM on wound inflicted to on another, but its 2 pts cheap, just saying


Although he's just bad agaisnt everything else, with the price he pays for AP 3...

 Bobthehero wrote:
The Scion will match the SM on wound inflicted to on another, but its 2 pts cheap, just saying


Although he's just bad agaisnt everything else, with the price he pays for AP 3...

I can see that. I'm not a math hammer guy, so please enlighten us using two scenarios. One with SM going first one with the scions going first, both starting 24 inches apart. 4 regular un upgraded guys +sergeant for both. Who wins? I'm curious how the numbers crunch out.

Noc

24 inches? More like 9 inches always, the Scions gets the drop on the SM purely becasue they come with deep strike built in.

And I've said wounds for wounds, they'll both have the same chance to a wound to one another. The one that goes first wins.

 Bobthehero wrote:
The Scion will match the SM on wound inflicted to on another, but its 2 pts cheap, just saying


Although he's just bad agaisnt everything else, with the price he pays for AP 3...

Scions are also flimsier and have less range, although yes with their large number of special weapons and other such thigns they're very very good at killing MEQs. but they're no where near as flexable as a tac marine.

That requires some luck in rolling, and takes into account special rules. The argument I'm trying to get in here is, in a vacuum with the two dumbest players both rolling perfectly average. Who wins the fight? That is how you justify their points. A gutsy player who deep strikes into the middle of his opponents backfield or who uses terrain to his advantage negates the point differences based upon his or her play style. Also remember that tau fire warrior doesn't take into account the supporting marker lights I paid for in my army either, but they do affect the fight. So once again my scenario, bob and bubba steal their little brothers plastic toys and use their third grade (or as they call it, high school) education to figure out the rules and discover those little white square things can be used to represent numbers. They both deploy on the empty kitchen table 24" apart because they wanna see some action! If bubba picked the space marines and bob chose the one he can't pronounce, who wins the fight? (With the plastic guys and dice, the physical argument that results due to the outcome can be discussed in another topic)

Noc

PS I'm from the south so I get to use this example

Range doesn't matter much with deepstrike and move through cover.

 Bobthehero wrote:
24 inches? More like 9 inches always, the Scions gets the drop on the SM purely becasue they come with deep strike built in.

And I've said wounds for wounds, they'll both have the same chance to a wound to one another. The one that goes first wins.

Assuming no cover is involved, and the Scions don't scatter unfortunately (read: at all).

Aside from that, they still stand a good chance of the surviving ~half squad of marines simply charging the poor scions in their MEQ players turn and killing off the Scions that way even after the alpha strike.

I want them to be good so bad, but they're only ever "trading even" under the most optimal of circumstances for a relatively tiny points discount.

It's even worse for the poor DKoK Grenadiers, with no DS and more expensive Chimeras

stripeydave wrote:
My IG infantry would kill for bolters... But they have lasguns, so they can't.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHHA!!!!

Good one!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
The issue isn't bolters per se, but bolters on Marines. Marines are expensive units that can't be made any cheaper really, that are no better at shooting than Sisters of Battle.

There needs to be something for Marines, and only Marines (including Chaos), using bolt pistols/bolters/storm bolters that makes them slightly better than non-Marine units with bolters.

Why should marines be better at shooting bolters than Sisters?
Okay, give them a rule to make them better at shooting bolter, do not forget to add 5/10 point to the cost of every marine to make up for it.

Do you hear the sound of the world's smallest violin playing?

Sisters have a lot more problems than just their bolter shooting, not least the fact that GW has no idea what to do with them, and that from their inception they were intended more as an ally army than a stand-alone army.

Space Marines were better at shooting than Sisters in 2nd edition, and since that's the edition I measure everything against they should be better at shooting now.

I have suggested one specific benefit, an extra shot, balanced by a significant impediment, the unit must remain stationary to benefit from it. All they're doing is shooting bolters, so that's far from an overpowering option.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
24 inches? More like 9 inches always, the Scions gets the drop on the SM purely becasue they come with deep strike built in.

And I've said wounds for wounds, they'll both have the same chance to a wound to one another. The one that goes first wins.

Assuming no cover is involved, and the Scions don't scatter unfortunately (read: at all).

Aside from that, they still stand a good chance of the surviving ~half squad of marines simply charging the poor scions in their MEQ players turn and killing off the Scions that way even after the alpha strike.

I want them to be good so bad, but they're only ever "trading even" under the most optimal of circumstances for a relatively tiny points discount.

It's even worse for the poor DKoK Grenadiers, with no DS and more expensive Chimeras

I feel ya, Grenadiers were my first purchase, my favorite models and my favorite unit in general, but they're bad. Now if you could attach them to a drill they'd be a tiny bit better...

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
The issue isn't bolters per se, but bolters on Marines. Marines are expensive units that can't be made any cheaper really, that are no better at shooting than Sisters of Battle.

There needs to be something for Marines, and only Marines (including Chaos), using bolt pistols/bolters/storm bolters that makes them slightly better than non-Marine units with bolters.

Why should marines be better at shooting bolters than Sisters?
Okay, give them a rule to make them better at shooting bolter, do not forget to add 5/10 point to the cost of every marine to make up for it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Don't sisters get a 6+ invulnerable, meaning that they have a slight chance to survive AP3 / AP2 / AP1 weaponry?

That can be very useful on tanks, but on basic sisters, it is extremely anecdotal.

aren't sisters only BS3? if so then Marines ARE better with bolters then they are

BrianDavion wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
The issue isn't bolters per se, but bolters on Marines. Marines are expensive units that can't be made any cheaper really, that are no better at shooting than Sisters of Battle.

There needs to be something for Marines, and only Marines (including Chaos), using bolt pistols/bolters/storm bolters that makes them slightly better than non-Marine units with bolters.

Why should marines be better at shooting bolters than Sisters?
Okay, give them a rule to make them better at shooting bolter, do not forget to add 5/10 point to the cost of every marine to make up for it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Don't sisters get a 6+ invulnerable, meaning that they have a slight chance to survive AP3 / AP2 / AP1 weaponry?

That can be very useful on tanks, but on basic sisters, it is extremely anecdotal.

aren't sisters only BS3? if so then Marines ARE better with bolters then they are

Nah, Sisters are BS4 WS3. They are basically stormtroopers with bolters and great looking power armor.
I love gothic and baroque designs. I really hope they keep them.

Sisters are WS3?

Well I guess it makes Scions being only WS3 more bearable.

i think they should be s4/ap5 ,salvo2/4,rending

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
Do you hear the sound of the world's smallest violin playing?

No, I hear someone complaining that Marines are not better than everyone else at shooting bolters .

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
Space Marines were better at shooting than Sisters in 2nd edition, and since that's the edition I measure everything against they should be better at shooting now.

So you do also believe Canoness must be stronger and tougher than a marine, right?

But your option for making the supposedly flexible tactical even more focused on shooting rather than assaulting does not seem that good to me, sorry. I have a better solution for you. Use the Fist chapter trait. Bang, you are better at shooting bolters now!

BrianDavion wrote:
aren't sisters only BS3? if so then Marines ARE better with bolters then they are

Sisters are ALL BS4, except the Canoness which is BS5, and Saint Celestine which is BS7.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Sisters are WS3?

Well I guess it makes Scions being only WS3 more bearable.

They are also about 12pts each, iirc.
Which is a bit high. Tac marines are 14 points right? And they get +1 WS, +1T, +1S, ATSKNF and squad tactics.

And Chapters tactics too.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
And Chapters tactics too.

Yeah, that too. That's a lot of goodies for 2 points.
Sisters do get a 6+ invul, but that still doesn't really cover the gap.

It is only used when not in cover, against AP3- weapons. And even then, it is just one chance out of six.
We also have Adamantium Will, which is not really useful either since we have no psyker and will just suffer in the psychic phase anyway.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

But your option for making the supposedly flexible tactical even more focused on shooting rather than assaulting does not seem that good to me, sorry. I have a better solution for you. Use the Fist chapter trait. Bang, you are better at shooting bolters now!

I said Marines. Who gives a darn about Tactical marines? I've never used them, I have no intention of every using them. If it's not riding a bike, wearing terminator armour, or wrapped in Space Wolves grey I simply don't care.

I advocate for Chaos getting a better themed army list, even though I don't play them. I'd happily advocate for Sisters of Battle getting a better list and rules. At the moment I'm advocating for bolter Marines being worth taking.

How about Bolters at S5 AP4.

AP 4 vs AP 5 is basically irrelevant as almost nothing has a 4+ save. Units tend to either get 5+ or 3+ saves. The only faction that's really going to suffer from that are the Tau and as much as I like Tau, they're asking for it.

Then S5 is clearly a boost and generally works out as +1 to wound.

I think I'd rather have a 15 or 16 point marine with a S5 AP 4 than a 14 point marine with S4 AP 5. Assuming it needs to be adjusted at all. Plus at S5 you can put the fear of the Omnissiah in more vehicles.

Plus it'll help the Sisters of Battle trifecta. Meltas against annoying vehicles. Flamers against annoying cover. Bolters against everything else.

No, the few units that pay for 4+ would be even more irrelevant and overpriced.

 Col. Tartleton wrote:
How about Bolters at S5 AP4.

AP 4 vs AP 5 is basically irrelevant as almost nothing has a 4+ save. Units tend to either get 5+ or 3+ saves. The only faction that's really going to suffer from that are the Tau and as much as I like Tau, they're asking for it.

Then S5 is clearly a boost and generally works out as +1 to wound.

I think I'd rather have a 15 or 16 point marine with a S5 AP 4 than a 14 point marine with S4 AP 5. Assuming it needs to be adjusted at all. Plus at S5 you can put the fear of the Omnissiah in more vehicles.

Plus it'll help the Sisters of Battle trifecta. Meltas against annoying vehicles. Flamers against annoying cover. Bolters against everything else.

S5 AP4 bolters exist already. They are called Heavy Bolters. And yes, there are a large number of units that do have 4+ saves that would suffer from this. Tau firewarriors, Scions, AM Vets, and Eldar Guardians just for example.

Noc

Nocturus wrote:

 Col. Tartleton wrote:
How about Bolters at S5 AP4.

AP 4 vs AP 5 is basically irrelevant as almost nothing has a 4+ save. Units tend to either get 5+ or 3+ saves. The only faction that's really going to suffer from that are the Tau and as much as I like Tau, they're asking for it.

Then S5 is clearly a boost and generally works out as +1 to wound.

I think I'd rather have a 15 or 16 point marine with a S5 AP 4 than a 14 point marine with S4 AP 5. Assuming it needs to be adjusted at all. Plus at S5 you can put the fear of the Omnissiah in more vehicles.

Plus it'll help the Sisters of Battle trifecta. Meltas against annoying vehicles. Flamers against annoying cover. Bolters against everything else.

S5 AP4 bolters exist already. They are called Heavy Bolters. And yes, there are a large number of units that do have 4+ saves that would suffer from this. Tau firewarriors, Scions, AM Vets, and Eldar Guardians just for example.

Noc

Eldar Aspect Warriors, I think you mean. Guardians are only 5+.

But yes, AP4 bolters would pose problems for units that pay for a save against bolters.