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2015/12/06 22:48:27
Subject: Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
Lol thanks for the insight. Please read the actual thread first. models cannot. there is no requirement for range for units to enter the shooting sequence, and thus shoot.
So units are not made out of models?...
Well thats new...
Again, you jump in at the end of a 70+ response discussion with a single line that has already been discussed. Read the thread first.
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2015/12/06 23:01:48
Subject: Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
Unit shooting = targeting another unit with your unit
You know repeating this over and over doesn't make it more true? In English merely targeting someone is not shooting them. So this must be a game definition, so please quote it as you have refused to do so through out this thread.
How about you start discussing the game rules and forget the English language here. It has no bearing in this as has been shown by many, you just keep ignoring everything.
Sure. Please define the following using rules:
Whenever
selects
any
resolving
use
firepower.
And remember, you cannot use English definitions.
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
2015/12/06 23:04:01
Subject: Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
Unit shooting = targeting another unit with your unit
You know repeating this over and over doesn't make it more true? In English merely targeting someone is not shooting them. So this must be a game definition, so please quote it as you have refused to do so through out this thread.
How about you start discussing the game rules and forget the English language here. It has no bearing in this as has been shown by many, you just keep ignoring everything.
Sure. Please define the following using rules:
Whenever
selects
any
resolving
use
firepower.
And remember, you cannot use English definitions.
Wow so funny. Thats not the point he was making. The other guy's only argument was "learn to use english".
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2015/12/06 23:04:04
Subject: Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
_ghost_ wrote:A unit counts a has shot when said unit went through the shooting attack seqcuence. thats all
Still waiting on a quote that says this. Because your misrepresentations of the following does not state anything to support your position.
BRB wrote:Repeat this process [steps 1-7] until you have selected and resolved attacks from all the weapons in the firing unit. If a unit has no differently named weapons, or if it chooses not to fire any of them, you can choose another of your units to make your next shooting attack, or proceed to the Assault phase.
As I can repeat this process (steps 1-7) without actually being in range for anything, I can make a shooting attack.
And the statement that attempting a Shooting Attack counts as Shooting is... where?
Charistoph wrote: Now, let's go over the uses of "shoot" in the rulebook, shall we?
OK, but I'm skipping to the important bits.
2. Choose a Target. The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see.
Notice the lack of any mention of range when you select a target unit.
And your point? Capacity to initiate, is not the same as doimg. As you will see later, this capacity is blocked when Range is considered.
In addition, the full explanation of this step does include range as a consideration.
3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot.
Notice how it is stated that models fire the weapons. It is the models that cannot target the enemy unit, not your unit.
And you are missing the point of the example. Weapons also listed as Shooting as well. The point was to define what "Shooting" is when used by the rulebook.
Check Range
All weapons have a maximum range, which is the furthest distance they can shoot. A weapon must be in range of the target unit to shoot.
Again note that it is models that are armed with a weapon, not units.
And units are armed with models. Again, this is about defining the term, "Shooting".
Any weapon that is found to be out of range of all visible enemy models in the target unit cannot shoot.
So a model that is out of line of sight cannot shoot. This has no effect on the unit as a whole.
Out of Range is also a consideration, and if out of range, no Shooting happens. No shooting, the unit did not shoot, either.
Any model that has line of sight to at least one enemy model in the target unit and is found to be in range of that model can shoot.
So any model that is found to be not in range cannot shoot. This has no effect on the unit as a whole.
And again, this is about defining "shooting". So from the use, "Shooting" is when a Weapon is used to generate a Shooting Attack and the equivalent of rolling To-Hit by the Weapon is the minimum level of interaction required to fulfill the definition.
So in this case, if a unit is out of range with all of its Weapons, it cannot shoot any more than if Line of Sight could not be established.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
2015/12/06 23:05:09
Subject: Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
_ghost_ wrote:A unit counts a has shot when said unit went through the shooting attack seqcuence. thats all
Still waiting on a quote that says this. Because your misrepresentations of the following does not state anything to support your position.
BRB wrote:Repeat this process [steps 1-7] until you have selected and resolved attacks from all the weapons in the firing unit. If a unit has no differently named weapons, or if it chooses not to fire any of them, you can choose another of your units to make your next shooting attack, or proceed to the Assault phase.
As I can repeat this process (steps 1-7) without actually being in range for anything, I can make a shooting attack.
And the statement that attempting a Shooting Attack counts as Shooting is... where?
Charistoph wrote: Now, let's go over the uses of "shoot" in the rulebook, shall we?
OK, but I'm skipping to the important bits.
2. Choose a Target. The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see.
Notice the lack of any mention of range when you select a target unit.
And your point? Capacity to initiate, is not the same as doimg. As you will see later, this capacity is blocked when Range is considered.
In addition, the full explanation of this step does include range as a consideration.
3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot.
Notice how it is stated that models fire the weapons. It is the models that cannot target the enemy unit, not your unit.
And you are missing the point of the example. Weapons also listed as Shooting as well. The point was to define what "Shooting" is when used by the rulebook.
Check Range
All weapons have a maximum range, which is the furthest distance they can shoot. A weapon must be in range of the target unit to shoot.
Again note that it is models that are armed with a weapon, not units.
And units are armed with models. Again, this is about defining the term, "Shooting".
Any weapon that is found to be out of range of all visible enemy models in the target unit cannot shoot.
So a model that is out of line of sight cannot shoot. This has no effect on the unit as a whole.
Out of Range is also a consideration, and if out of range, no Shooting happens. No shooting, the unit did not shoot, either.
Any model that has line of sight to at least one enemy model in the target unit and is found to be in range of that model can shoot.
So any model that is found to be not in range cannot shoot. This has no effect on the unit as a whole.
And again, this is about defining "shooting". So from the use, "Shooting" is when a Weapon is used to generate a Shooting Attack and the equivalent of rolling To-Hit by the Weapon is the minimum level of interaction required to fulfill the definition.
So in this case, if a unit is out of range with all of its Weapons, it cannot shoot any more than if Line of Sight could not be established.
I love how you keep skipping over the example provided about a unit getting a gets hot result that has been presented many times
"So according to your rationale, a unit of 1 soldier with a 'heavy 1 blast gets hot gun' that rolls a 'Gets Hot!' will not count as having shot in the shooting sequence and will get to shoot again or run and/or assault later on in that turn? Is this what you are espousing?
Per the rules, a unit shoots when it makes a legal shooting attack attempt and elects to go through the shooting process outlined in the shooting sequence. The only requirement is that the unit has line of sight with the target unit. The rules don't care whether or not any actual models fire a shot (those shots could never happen due to Gets Hot or players choice or some other reason like being out of range). The CF rules deal with units and not models.
The Gets Hot example proves that Fling's argument is wholly untenable."
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/06 23:05:49
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2015/12/06 23:05:48
Subject: Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
Slayer le boucher wrote:And don't start with the Units=/=Models bull[REDACTED], a unit is made out off models ffs.
To quote myself:
I wrote:Model is defined as:
The Citadel miniatures used to play games of Warhammer 40,000 are referred to as ‘models’ in the rules that follow.
We agree that the ork model cannot shoot. However the rules do of combined firepower do not refer to models, but to units shooting.
Units are first referred to as:
In Warhammer 40,000, we represent this by grouping models together into units. A unit usually consists of several models that have banded together, but a single, powerful model, such as a lone character, a tank, a war engine or a rampaging monster, is also considered to be a unit in its own right.
While this case is ambiguous and can really be used to argue either case (showing that GW really needs to rethink their rules), later cases do make cleat that there is a difference between models and units. For example in the leadership test:
At certain times, a model or unit might be called upon to take a Leadership test.
Here is is shown that there is a divide between what is a unit and what is a model. If units were only the models, then the rules would not specify the unit as a separate entity from the model.
Another example of this divide is in the removing casualties section:
When all of the models in a unit are removed as casualties, the unit is said to have been ‘completely destroyed’.
Here, it is not the models that count as completely destroyed, they count as casualties. It is the unit that counts as completely destroyed. These show that a unit is a separate entity from the models from which it is made as they have their own statuses, on of which is having made a shooting attack.
To use the second, more clear example. When an ork in my squad of slugga boyz loses its last wound or is otherwise removed, it counts as a casualty and is removed from the table. The unit of orks is still a unit of orks and does not have a status change. After all ork models in the unit have been removed as casualties, the models are still just casualties, but the unit counts as having been completely destroyed and is referred to as such at later points in the game. For instance:
BRB wrote:The first unit, of any kind, to be completely destroyed during the game is worth 1 Victory Point to the opposing player at the end of the game.
This rule clearly references a unit as an entity, not granting first blood for the first model that is removed as a casualty.
Still waiting for Godot.
2015/12/06 23:07:57
Subject: Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
Unit shooting = targeting another unit with your unit
You know repeating this over and over doesn't make it more true? In English merely targeting someone is not shooting them. So this must be a game definition, so please quote it as you have refused to do so through out this thread.
How about you start discussing the game rules and forget the English language here. It has no bearing in this as has been shown by many, you just keep ignoring everything.
Sure. Please define the following using rules:
Whenever
selects
any
resolving
use
firepower.
And remember, you cannot use English definitions.
Wow so funny. Thats not the point he was making. The other guy's only argument was "learn to use english".
"Shooting" is not defined in the rulebook. "Shooting Attack" is. If a rule requires a Shooting Attack, we look at the rulebook to see what it means. Since "Shooting" is not a defined term, we use the english definition.
Unless you can post a rule that defines "Shooting".
Which has not been done yet.
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
2015/12/06 23:17:56
Subject: Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
notredameguy10 wrote: I love how you keep skipping over the example provided about a unit getting a gets hot result that has been presented many times
I was focusing more on responses to me. How is this ignoring your response when they were not brought up there? And there were a lot of posts between my responses to work out.
"So according to your rationale, a unit of 1 soldier with a 'heavy 1 blast gets hot gun' that rolls a 'Gets Hot!' will not count as having shot in the shooting sequence and will get to shoot again or run and/or assault later on in that turn? Is this what you are espousing?
Hardly, if you even bothered paying attention to what I said. Don't accuse someone of not acknowledging what you say when you do not consider theirs.
Gets Hot! is part of the rolling To-Hit process and its templates equivalent, and not used at any other point. As I have pointed out, actual Shooting starts with the To-Hit process, not before.
Per the rules, a unit shoots when it makes a legal shooting attack attempt and elects to go through the shooting process outlined in the shooting sequence. The only requirement is that the unit has line of sight with the target unit. The rules don't care whether or not any actual models fire a shot (those shots could never happen due to Gets Hot or players choice or some other reason like being out of range). The CF rules deal with units and not models.
The Gets Hot example proves that Fling's argument is wholly untenable."
As already quoted, range is as much a part of generating a Shooting Attack as LoS. More importantly, Shooting cannot occur unless both LoS AND range considerations have been answered.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/06 23:18:36
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
2015/12/06 23:42:17
Subject: Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
_ghost_ wrote:A unit counts a has shot when said unit went through the shooting attack seqcuence. thats all
Still waiting on a quote that says this. Because your misrepresentations of the following does not state anything to support your position.
BRB wrote:Repeat this process [steps 1-7] until you have selected and resolved attacks from all the weapons in the firing unit. If a unit has no differently named weapons, or if it chooses not to fire any of them, you can choose another of your units to make your next shooting attack, or proceed to the Assault phase.
As I can repeat this process (steps 1-7) without actually being in range for anything, I can make a shooting attack.
And the statement that attempting a Shooting Attack counts as Shooting is... where?
If "make your next Shooting Attack" demonstrates that the previous actions were also a Shooting Attack.
Spoiler:
Charistoph wrote: Now, let's go over the uses of "shoot" in the rulebook, shall we?
OK, but I'm skipping to the important bits.
2. Choose a Target. The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see.
Notice the lack of any mention of range when you select a target unit.
And your point? Capacity to initiate, is not the same as doimg. As you will see later, this capacity is blocked when Range is considered.
In addition, the full explanation of this step does include range as a consideration.
I have initiated the attack. I am told that to initiate the attack:
BRB wrote:To do so, you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the enemy unit you are targeting.
However the actual requirements are:
To target an enemy unit, at least one model must have line of sight to at least one model in the target unit.
As I can meet these requirements while out of range, I have now targeted the unit
Spoiler:
3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot.
Notice how it is stated that models fire the weapons. It is the models that cannot target the enemy unit, not your unit.
And you are missing the point of the example. Weapons also listed as Shooting as well. The point was to define what "Shooting" is when used by the rulebook.
And you have defined that models cannot shoot if they are not in range.
Spoiler:
Check Range
All weapons have a maximum range, which is the furthest distance they can shoot. A weapon must be in range of the target unit to shoot.
Again note that it is models that are armed with a weapon, not units.
And units are armed with models. Again, this is about defining the term, "Shooting".
Units, as I have shown using leadership and casualties are separate entities than units. You are defining when a model can and cannot shoot, but the unit is still carrying out an (ineffective) shooting attack.
Spoiler:
Any weapon that is found to be out of range of all visible enemy models in the target unit cannot shoot.
So a model that is out of line of sight cannot shoot. This has no effect on the unit as a whole.
Out of Range is also a consideration, and if out of range, no Shooting happens. No shooting, the unit did not shoot, either.
A unit can be "Completely Destroyed" without any of its models having the status "Completely Destroyed" (they are casualties) as long as it meets certain requirements. Likewise a unit can have made its shooting attack with some or all of its models having failed to shoot as long as it meets the requirements outlined in step 7.
Repeat this process [steps 1-7] until you have selected and resolved attacks from all the weapons in the firing unit. If a unit has no differently named weapons, or if it chooses not to fire any of them, you can choose another of your units to make your next shooting attack, or proceed to the Assault phase.
Spoiler:
Any model that has line of sight to at least one enemy model in the target unit and is found to be in range of that model can shoot.
So any model that is found to be not in range cannot shoot. This has no effect on the unit as a whole.
And again, this is about defining "shooting". So from the use, "Shooting" is when a Weapon is used to generate a Shooting Attack and the equivalent of rolling To-Hit by the Weapon is the minimum level of interaction required to fulfill the definition.
So in this case, if a unit is out of range with all of its Weapons, it cannot shoot any more than if Line of Sight could not be established.
I found a better quote:
The shooting process can be summarised in seven steps, as described below.
The shooting process, which is the process by which you shoot, is defined as the seven steps of the shooting sequence. The seven steps of the shooting sequence allow a unit to shoot at another unit even if they are not in range.
Still waiting for Godot.
2015/12/07 00:18:47
Subject: Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
Slayer le boucher wrote:And don't start with the Units=/=Models bull[REDACTED], a unit is made out off models ffs.
To quote myself:
I wrote:Model is defined as:
The Citadel miniatures used to play games of Warhammer 40,000 are referred to as ‘models’ in the rules that follow.
We agree that the ork model cannot shoot. However the rules do of combined firepower do not refer to models, but to units shooting.
Units are first referred to as:
In Warhammer 40,000, we represent this by grouping models together into units. A unit usually consists of several models that have banded together, but a single, powerful model, such as a lone character, a tank, a war engine or a rampaging monster, is also considered to be a unit in its own right.
While this case is ambiguous and can really be used to argue either case (showing that GW really needs to rethink their rules), later cases do make cleat that there is a difference between models and units. For example in the leadership test:
At certain times, a model or unit might be called upon to take a Leadership test.
Here is is shown that there is a divide between what is a unit and what is a model. If units were only the models, then the rules would not specify the unit as a separate entity from the model.
Another example of this divide is in the removing casualties section:
When all of the models in a unit are removed as casualties, the unit is said to have been ‘completely destroyed’.
Here, it is not the models that count as completely destroyed, they count as casualties. It is the unit that counts as completely destroyed. These show that a unit is a separate entity from the models from which it is made as they have their own statuses, on of which is having made a shooting attack.
To use the second, more clear example. When an ork in my squad of slugga boyz loses its last wound or is otherwise removed, it counts as a casualty and is removed from the table. The unit of orks is still a unit of orks and does not have a status change. After all ork models in the unit have been removed as casualties, the models are still just casualties, but the unit counts as having been completely destroyed and is referred to as such at later points in the game. For instance:
BRB wrote:The first unit, of any kind, to be completely destroyed during the game is worth 1 Victory Point to the opposing player at the end of the game.
This rule clearly references a unit as an entity, not granting first blood for the first model that is removed as a casualty.
I see what you're explaining.
Still doesn't change that to be a unit, you need models, be it 1 model or more.
Doesn't change the fact that if a unit is completly out of range, and not only some of the models, its still out of range.
Now yeah, GW could have made it easy by so many ways, but like always it isn't, if they had written it to be like " units/models, out of LoS or range cannot shoot".
Also you reference the Victory point for a destroyed unit, you're right, if there is still models in it even 1, the unit isn't destroyed, doesn't have anything to do with the fact that its out of range.
if a unit of 10 models has 4 of them in range, i agree that then CF works as intendend, but if the 10 models are out of range, so the unit as a whole is out of range, so i don't see why they should count has shooting.
Then yes you can argue that CF says that 3+ units that shoot at the same target count as one, i empashis the Count as, because it doesn't mean that they are really ONE unit, or else then you don't have 3+ units shooting, wich is kind of a loop.
So even though their rolls and wound pool is made Vs the same target at the same time they are still considered 3 separate units, since its the requirement, so why make a distenction here and not when one of them is out of range?
And i don't see where the problem is really, its just basic logic that if the guy wants to use his CF rule he must check that he is in range and have loS, if he isn't he move one of his units, or he choose another unit, since there is no limitation in the range at wich Tau units must be one from another to use it.
A guy will simply go ahead, measure, see their not in range, and choose another unit, there isn't even the beginning of an argument.
Because then by that logic, if one model in my unit as split fire for some reason, but only a flamer or something else, he can then still target another unit then his guys, and choose to assault that unit, despite the fact he din't made any rolls?
Still doesn't change that to be a unit, you need models, be it 1 model or more.
Doesn't change the fact that if a unit is completly out of range, and not only some of the models, its still out of range.
Now yeah, GW could have made it easy by so many ways, but like always it isn't, if they had written it to be like " units/models, out of LoS or range cannot shoot".
When GW starts clearing up the rules and clarifying some of their concepts, such as the mythical unit, then we shall all dance a happy jig.
For the purposes of selecting a target, the unit does not have any restrictions on whether its weapons are in range, only that it has line of sight. I think it is intended to be such that you can not do this, but due to the poor state of the rules, you can target units out of range.
Also you reference the Victory point for a destroyed unit, you're right, if there is still models in it even 1, the unit isn't destroyed, doesn't have anything to do with the fact that its out of range.
This analogy was meant to illustrate how a unit can have shot while none of the models have fired a weapon. The unit performed the necessary requirements, none of which are actually firing a weapon.
if a unit of 10 models has 4 of them in range, i agree that then CF works as intendend, but if the 10 models are out of range, so the unit as a whole is out of range, so i don't see why they should count has shooting.
They still count as shooting and CF works as the designer did not intend. They now either need to errata or FAQ this, or just go with it.
Then yes you can argue that CF says that 3+ units that shoot at the same target count as one, i empashis the Count as, because it doesn't mean that they are really ONE unit, or else then you don't have 3+ units shooting, wich is kind of a loop.
We are saved by the "as" without that, your entire army firing at one target would be a single unit with no BS bonus. Praise the "as"!
So even though their rolls and wound pool is made Vs the same target at the same time they are still considered 3 separate units, since its the requirement, so why make a distenction here and not when one of them is out of range?
I'm afraid I am confused by this point. When one of the units is out of range, it resolves its hits (None) and wounds (0) separately from the other units.
And i don't see where the problem is really, its just basic logic that if the guy wants to use his CF rule he must check that he is in range and have loS, if he isn't he move one of his units, or he choose another unit, since there is no limitation in the range at wich Tau units must be one from another to use it.
This would come up in situations where there are a limited number of units left on the board or where large terrain feature block other units from seeing the target. In these situations where only three units can see the target, it may be that one of them does not have the necessary range to hit it, but it can still use it coordinated fire.
A guy will simply go ahead, measure, see their not in range, and choose another unit, there isn't even the beginning of an argument.
This however is not about what would be logical to do. A person really wants to shoot pistols across the table, regardless of whether they can hit anything. Currently RAW, they can choose to do so, and gain benefits for doing so if they are part of this formation? detachment? (Where is this rule from?)
Because then by that logic, if one model in my unit as split fire for some reason, but only a flamer or something else, he can then still target another unit then his guys, and choose to assault that unit, despite the fact he din't made any rolls?
Let's check:
BRB wrote:When a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule [Splitfire] shoots, one model in the unit can shoot at a different target to the rest of his unit. Once this shooting attack has been resolved, resolve the shooting attacks made by the rest of the unit. These must be at a different target, which cannot be a unit forced to disembark as a result of the Split Firing unit’s initial shooting attack.
Can I shoot a flamer at the squad? Yes I can as long as I draw line of sight. Moving to the Assault Phase:
In addition to the above, a unit that fired in the Shooting phase can only charge the unit that it targeted during that turn’s Shooting phase.
I targeted the unit with a flamer template, so that is another check.
A unit can never declare a charge against a unit that it cannot reach, nor can it declare a charge against a unit that it cannot see, though it is allowed to charge an enemy unit it is impossible for it to harm. This means that a charge can usually only be declared on a unit up to 12" away (the maximum charge range for most models, as we’ll discover later).
As a flamer template is between 7" and 8" long, if you can find a unit in the 7" to 12" range that you really want to charge. RAW, you can split fire your flamer at them.
Still waiting for Godot.
2015/12/07 02:21:51
Subject: Re:Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
I'm afraid I am confused by this point. When one of the units is out of range, it resolves its hits (None) and wounds (0) separately from the other units.
And thats here thats confusing for me, no where in the book can you intentionally do 0 hits and 0 wounds.
It can happen once you've made the rolls, if you're extremly unlucky, but you still need to be in range as per page 31, see what i'm saying?
For the purposes of selecting a target, the unit does not have any restrictions on whether its weapons are in range, only that it has line of sight. I think it is intended to be such that you can not do this, but due to the poor state of the rules, you can target units out of range.
Excepte page 31 where it says that it needs LoS AND be in Range.
This would come up in situations where there are a limited number of units left on the board or where large terrain feature block other units from seeing the target. In these situations where only three units can see the target, it may be that one of them does not have the necessary range to hit it, but it can still use it coordinated fire.
Just like anyone who has special rules that gets debunked during the game, because something essential to it died/isn't in range/can't see gak, its a consequence, Your Apotichary dies, you loose FnP, your Librarian/Psyker dies, you loose his Powers and Warp charges, its not a reason to try to shenanigan the hell out of it just because its inconvinient, gak happens, thats our lot for us all.
This however is not about what would be logical to do. A person really wants to shoot pistols across the table, regardless of whether they can hit anything. Currently RAW, they can choose to do so, and gain benefits for doing so if they are part of this formation? detachment? (Where is this rule from?)
Now i'm a straigth forward guy, but if my Pistols has a range of 12" i won't try and declare that i shoot a unit thats 20" away..., since i cannot hit it.
Once this shooting attack has been resolved
Maybe i'm wrong here but for a shooting attack to be resolved, you need to be 1) in range, 2) roll to hit, 3) roll to wound, so if my flamer template is 1" away from any model how can i resolve the shooting attack?...
When GW starts clearing up the rules and clarifying some of their concepts, such as the mythical unit, then we shall all dance a happy jig.
_ghost_ wrote:A unit counts a has shot when said unit went through the shooting attack seqcuence. thats all
Still waiting on a quote that says this. Because your misrepresentations of the following does not state anything to support your position.
BRB wrote:Repeat this process [steps 1-7] until you have selected and resolved attacks from all the weapons in the firing unit. If a unit has no differently named weapons, or if it chooses not to fire any of them, you can choose another of your units to make your next shooting attack, or proceed to the Assault phase.
As I can repeat this process (steps 1-7) without actually being in range for anything, I can make a shooting attack.
And the statement that attempting a Shooting Attack counts as Shooting is... where?
If "make your next Shooting Attack" demonstrates that the previous actions were also a Shooting Attack.
And that is in no way actually answering the question. A Shooting Attack contains shooting. However, that does not mean that the two are interchangeable. A Shooting Attack may not contain Shooting if no Shooting occurs. When does no shooting occur in a Shooting Atack? When a target is out of range of every chosen weapon available to the unit. It is stupid and a waste, but it is how the rulebook uses the actual words.
The problem here is that many people are considering the terms "shooting" and "shooting attack" to be equal and synonymous, where the rulebook does not actually equate them. It treat shooting as part of a shooting attack, but not the other way around.
Charistoph wrote: Now, let's go over the uses of "shoot" in the rulebook, shall we?
OK, but I'm skipping to the important bits.
2. Choose a Target. The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see.
Notice the lack of any mention of range when you select a target unit.
And your point? Capacity to initiate, is not the same as doimg. As you will see later, this capacity is blocked when Range is considered.
In addition, the full explanation of this step does include range as a consideration.
I have initiated the attack. I am told that to initiate the attack:
BRB wrote:To do so, you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the enemy unit you are targeting.
However the actual requirements are:
To target an enemy unit, at least one model must have line of sight to at least one model in the target unit.
As I can meet these requirements while out of range, I have now targeted the unit
Again, initiating the shooting attack step is not the same as shooting, as I have already shown. In order for something to shoot, it must check off the Line of Sight question AND check off the Range question. If either of these fail, literally no shooting occurs. The rulebook establishes this point specifically when asking the question of "Who Can Fire?"
3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot.
Notice how it is stated that models fire the weapons. It is the models that cannot target the enemy unit, not your unit.
And you are missing the point of the example. Weapons also listed as Shooting as well. The point was to define what "Shooting" is when used by the rulebook.
And you have defined that models cannot shoot if they are not in range.
And Weapons, too. And if the Weapons and Models do not shoot, can you establish in writing that the Unit still shoots, not initiate a Shooting Attack, actually "shoot"?
Check Range
All weapons have a maximum range, which is the furthest distance they can shoot. A weapon must be in range of the target unit to shoot.
Again note that it is models that are armed with a weapon, not units.
And units are armed with models. Again, this is about defining the term, "Shooting".
Units, as I have shown using leadership and casualties are separate entities than units. You are defining when a model can and cannot shoot, but the unit is still carrying out an (ineffective) shooting attack.
And again, "shooting" and "shooting attack" are not the same thing as established by the use of the terms in the rulebook. In order to shoot, the target must establish a form of Line of Sight, and must be in range of the weapon used. There has been nothing presented to provide another requisites of shooting.
Any weapon that is found to be out of range of all visible enemy models in the target unit cannot shoot.
So a model that is out of line of sight cannot shoot. This has no effect on the unit as a whole.
Out of Range is also a consideration, and if out of range, no Shooting happens. No shooting, the unit did not shoot, either.
A unit can be "Completely Destroyed" without any of its models having the status "Completely Destroyed" (they are casualties) as long as it meets certain requirements. Likewise a unit can have made its shooting attack with some or all of its models having failed to shoot as long as it meets the requirements outlined in step 7.
Repeat this process [steps 1-7] until you have selected and resolved attacks from all the weapons in the firing unit. If a unit has no differently named weapons, or if it chooses not to fire any of them, you can choose another of your units to make your next shooting attack, or proceed to the Assault phase.
Again, attempting to use the confusion of terms as reasons for ignoring it. Shooting does not involve Steps 1-7, it only involves 1-4, and only actually occurs when the equivalent of the To-Hit rolls start processing. If no single Weapon can establish LOS or Range, literally no shooting occurs. Nothing presented so far has properly challenged this definition.
Any model that has line of sight to at least one enemy model in the target unit and is found to be in range of that model can shoot.
So any model that is found to be not in range cannot shoot. This has no effect on the unit as a whole.
And again, this is about defining "shooting". So from the use, "Shooting" is when a Weapon is used to generate a Shooting Attack and the equivalent of rolling To-Hit by the Weapon is the minimum level of interaction required to fulfill the definition.
So in this case, if a unit is out of range with all of its Weapons, it cannot shoot any more than if Line of Sight could not be established.
I found a better quote:
The shooting process can be summarised in seven steps, as described below.
The shooting process, which is the process by which you shoot, is defined as the seven steps of the shooting sequence. The seven steps of the shooting sequence allow a unit to shoot at another unit even if they are not in range.
And still ignoring the simple fact listed in Step 3: if a model/weapon are out of range, they do not shoot. Steps 1-7 are still the process, but if you never reach Step 4, no actual shooting has occurred as established by the rulebook's use.
Try to argue with me all you want, I'm just using the rulebook's definition.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
2015/12/07 04:59:45
Subject: Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
The shooting process can be summarised in seven steps, as described below.
The shooting process, which is the process by which you shoot, is defined as the seven steps of the shooting sequence. The seven steps of the shooting sequence allow a unit to shoot at another unit even if they are not in range.
And still ignoring the simple fact listed in Step 3: if a model/weapon are out of range, they do not shoot. Steps 1-7 are still the process, but if you never reach Step 4, no actual shooting has occurred as established by the rulebook's use.
Try to argue with me all you want, I'm just using the rulebook's definition.
Even if you do not get to take steps 4-6 (you do, but I won't bother to argue this because I'm in a lecture), you still get to take step 7. If I have my unit of boyz shooting at a target at 15" range and I declare the slugga boyz models (range 12") want to try and shoot first. They resolve this be generating 0 shots. My shooting phase with the unit does not suddenly end because I generated no hit, instead I then move on to step 7 of the shooting sequence where I have the option to nominate the shoota nob model (range 24") to try and shoot. I still take step 7 of this sequence which has the rule:
If a unit has no differently named weapons, or if it chooses not to fire any of them, you can choose another of your units to make your next shooting attack, or proceed to the Assault phase.
Here is the bit that says that the previous actions constitute a shooting attack.
As for the interchangeability of the terms:
The shooting process can be summarised in seven steps, as described below.
This defines shooting as a process that follows the shooting sequence
make your next shooting attack,
This instance now refers to the shooting sequence, which it calls a shooting attack. To shoot is to make a shooting attack in Warhammer 40k.
I do not see where it defines "shooting" as having hit the enemy unit.
Still waiting for Godot.
2015/12/07 06:16:35
Subject: Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
The shooting process can be summarised in seven steps, as described below.
The shooting process, which is the process by which you shoot, is defined as the seven steps of the shooting sequence. The seven steps of the shooting sequence allow a unit to shoot at another unit even if they are not in range.
And still ignoring the simple fact listed in Step 3: if a model/weapon are out of range, they do not shoot. Steps 1-7 are still the process, but if you never reach Step 4, no actual shooting has occurred as established by the rulebook's use.
Try to argue with me all you want, I'm just using the rulebook's definition.
Even if you do not get to take steps 4-6 (you do, but I won't bother to argue this because I'm in a lecture), you still get to take step 7. If I have my unit of boyz shooting at a target at 15" range and I declare the slugga boyz models (range 12") want to try and shoot first. They resolve this be generating 0 shots. My shooting phase with the unit does not suddenly end because I generated no hit, instead I then move on to step 7 of the shooting sequence where I have the option to nominate the shoota nob model (range 24") to try and shoot. I still take step 7 of this sequence which has the rule:
If a unit has no differently named weapons, or if it chooses not to fire any of them, you can choose another of your units to make your next shooting attack, or proceed to the Assault phase.
Here is the bit that says that the previous actions constitute a shooting attack.
Again ignoring the simple facts. Even going to Step 7 by skipping over Steps 4-6, still Shooting has not occurred according to the use of "shooting" by the rulebook in question. The action in question never occurs. It never actually happens. If the weapon is out of range, it does not shoot, period. No matter how you try to disguise the situation, this does not change. Simply initiating a Shooting Attack is insufficient to actually be considered shooting. You must establish a form of Line of Sight, and the weapon being used must be in Range to actually shoot. These are the base limits established when determining "Who Can Fire". There are some others, but those are reliant on the specific Weapon Types and not needed for the basic concepts we are discussing.
The shooting process can be summarised in seven steps, as described below.
This defines shooting as a process that follows the shooting sequence.
make your next shooting attack,
This instance now refers to the shooting sequence, which it calls a shooting attack. To shoot is to make a shooting attack in Warhammer 40k.
It is the process, but the actual act of shooting can be stopped as pointed out in determining Who Can Fire. Anything before attempting To Hit is just the start up to shooting and establishing the parameters to start the process. If the requirements are not fulfilled, shooting does not occur, as I have already pointed out. Ignoring the rules set up in Who Can Fire is the same as ignoring everything else.
the Signless wrote: I do not see where it defines "shooting" as having hit the enemy unit.
Did I say anything about hitting the enemy unit? No, simply the attempt To Hit must be initiated. If Out of Range or Line of Sight cannot be established (or in the case of some weapons, ignored), shooting literally does not occur and no attempt To-Hit is made.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/07 06:16:56
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
2015/12/07 07:05:54
Subject: Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
Charistoph wrote: Again ignoring the simple facts. Even going to Step 7 by skipping over Steps 4-6, still Shooting has not occurred according to the use of "shooting" by the rulebook in question. The action in question never occurs. It never actually happens. If the weapon is out of range, it does not shoot, period. No matter how you try to disguise the situation, this does not change. Simply initiating a Shooting Attack is insufficient to actually be considered shooting. You must establish a form of Line of Sight, and the weapon being used must be in Range to actually shoot. These are the base limits established when determining "Who Can Fire". There are some others, but those are reliant on the specific Weapon Types and not needed for the basic concepts we are discussing.
As I have state before, there are differences between the model performing an action and the unit performing an action. The unit is considered to have made a shooting attack even if there are no hits. This is also seen in cases like how it is the unit that is "Completely Destroyed" while the models are "casualties, except in this case the unit has performed a "shooting attack" even if no model has fired.
Charistoph wrote: It is the process, but the actual act of shooting can be stopped as pointed out in determining Who Can Fire. Anything before attempting To Hit is just the start up to shooting and establishing the parameters to start the process. If the requirements are not fulfilled, shooting does not occur, as I have already pointed out. Ignoring the rules set up in Who Can Fire is the same as ignoring everything else.
Why is everything before this point not important? The unit is already making a shooting attack as demonstrated in step 7, a term which I have shown that the rules use interchangeably with shoot. The ability of any one model to actually hit the target does not affect the ability of the unit.
Charistoph wrote: Did I say anything about hitting the enemy unit? No, simply the attempt To Hit must be initiated. If Out of Range or Line of Sight cannot be established (or in the case of some weapons, ignored), shooting literally does not occur and no attempt To-Hit is made.
Okay, thank you for the clarification. Where does the rule book say that to hit rolls must be made for the unit to count as shooting at the enemy unit? Looking through the to hit section, I see no such section where it declares "Now the units counts as having shot" or "this is the shooting part of the shooting attack". If you can provide a quote from a rule book showing where this divide between attempting a shooting attack and shooting occurs, then I will be happy to reconsider the evidence.
Still waiting for Godot.
2015/12/07 07:47:16
Subject: Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
_ghost_ wrote:A unit counts a has shot when said unit went through the shooting attack seqcuence. thats all
Still waiting on a quote that says this. Because your misrepresentations of the following does not state anything to support your position.
BRB wrote:Repeat this process [steps 1-7] until you have selected and resolved attacks from all the weapons in the firing unit. If a unit has no differently named weapons, or if it chooses not to fire any of them, you can choose another of your units to make your next shooting attack, or proceed to the Assault phase.
As I can repeat this process (steps 1-7) without actually being in range for anything, I can make a shooting attack.
And the statement that attempting a Shooting Attack counts as Shooting is... where?
Pg 30 in BRB (at least my version) defines the shooting process. There are 7 steps in sequence and the BRB says: The shooting process can be summarised in seven steps, as described below. Each step is explained in greater detail later in this section.Once you've completed this shooting sequence with one of your units, select another and repeat the sequence.
That is pretty clear, isn't it? The only way to complete a shooting attack with a unit is to go throuhg the whole shooting sequence. The individual steps were discussed many times with rules quotes, but let's go at it one more time below.
Charistoph wrote:3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot.
the Signless wrote:Notice how it is stated that models fire the weapons. It is the models that cannot target the enemy unit, not your unit.
Charistoph wrote:And you are missing the point of the example. Weapons also listed as Shooting as well. The point was to define what "Shooting" is when used by the rulebook.
I thought we have many times? See my quote above. Where is your definition of the unit having shot as per the rulebook?
Charistoph wrote:Any weapon that is found to be out of range of all visible enemy models in the target unit cannot shoot.
the Signless wrote:So a model that is out of line of sight cannot shoot. This has no effect on the unit as a whole.
Charistoph wrote:Out of Range is also a consideration, and if out of range, no Shooting happens. No shooting, the unit did not shoot, either.
Pg 30 in the BRB, check it out. By completing the shooting sequence the unit has shot. We have given a couple of examples where you, FlingitNow and some others try to break the shooting sequence:
Example A: A unit of five Tacticals (step 1) with a plasma cannon select a target for shooting (step 2). Plasma cannon is chosen and Range is checked (step 3), just the one weapon in the weapon group is fired. Roll to hit (step 4) causes Gets hot result. I refuse to process any more weapons and don't finish the shooting sequence.
By your reading the unit is now free to i) run, ii) shoot again, even with the plasma cannon, iii) charge an enemy.
Example B: I have three units of Crisis suits. For an argument's sake let's say they are in range with target unit with all of their weapons. Unit A (step 1) with 3 dual missile pods selects a target (step 2), CF is triggered and units B (2x3 plasma rifles) and C (2x3 fusion blaster) join the shooting as per pg 71 of Codex: Tau: resolving their shots as if they were a single unit. Now we have 9 models with 3 different weapons behaving as a single unit. Then I choose weapon group and select missile pods and check the range, all are in range, excellent (step 3). I move to the next step in the shooting sequence and roll to hit (step 4) with +1BS and 6 missile pods, scoring multiple hits. I move to the next step and roll to wound (step 5), causing 10 wounds to the target unit. Then we move to allocating wounds and removing casualties (step 6), either wiping out the unit or leaving one or two models alive, doesn't matter with the example. Next step tells us to select another weapon (step 7) but as I am allowed not to fier any weapons if I don't want to, I stop there.
By your reading as the now separate units B and C have not shot at all, they are free to i) run, ii) go through the shooting sequence again and select new targets, iii) join another CF to ensure destruction
Have fun with the way you don't follow the written rule. In the 2nd example we could even have some nice signature systems in the unit for multiple uses. Care to review your own misreading of the rule finally?
2015/12/07 08:11:45
Subject: Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
Naw wrote: Example B: I have three units of Crisis suits. For an argument's sake let's say they are in range with target unit with all of their weapons. Unit A (step 1) with 3 dual missile pods selects a target (step 2), CF is triggered and units B (2x3 plasma rifles) and C (2x3 fusion blaster) join the shooting as per pg 71 of Codex: Tau: resolving their shots as if they were a single unit. Now we have 9 models with 3 different weapons behaving as a single unit. Then I choose weapon group and select missile pods and check the range, all are in range, excellent (step 3). I move to the next step in the shooting sequence and roll to hit (step 4) with +1BS and 6 missile pods, scoring multiple hits. I move to the next step and roll to wound (step 5), causing 10 wounds to the target unit. Then we move to allocating wounds and removing casualties (step 6), either wiping out the unit or leaving one or two models alive, doesn't matter with the example. Next step tells us to select another weapon (step 7) but as I am allowed not to fier any weapons if I don't want to, I stop there.
By your reading as the now separate units B and C have not shot at all, they are free to i) run, ii) go through the shooting sequence again and select new targets, iii) join another CF to ensure destruction
This is a pretty good example, but it's missing one detail: you don't get the +1 BS bonus with the missile pods. Because you have not yet rolled to hit with models from 3+ units you have not "fired" and have not met the requirement of 3+ units adding their "firepower".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/07 08:11:56
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2015/12/07 08:13:57
Subject: Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
Charistoph wrote: Again ignoring the simple facts. Even going to Step 7 by skipping over Steps 4-6, still Shooting has not occurred according to the use of "shooting" by the rulebook in question. The action in question never occurs.
That is your own misinterpretation of the events. By nominating a unit to shoot, we have started the shooting attack. At the end of the process it doesn't matter if we have not fired a single weapon, not killed anyone, not rolled any rolls to hit (flamers anyone?) etc. It isn't a requirement. It's only your opinion that it should be so.
Simply initiating a Shooting Attack is insufficient to actually be considered shooting.
I'm so happy about these rules quotes. How did I miss that in my copy of the rulebook! [/sarcasm]
You must establish a form of Line of Sight, and the weapon being used must be in Range to actually shoot
Yes, as has been laid out in the shooting sequence, this is step 3. However we are also told that we do not have to fire a single weapon if we don't want to and still go through the shooting sequence to step 7 where we are told to choose another weapon if we want to and go through steps 3-6 again.
These are the base limits established when determining "Who Can Fire".
Certainly you can read through the whole shooting sequence steps to understand the process of shooting? I hope you understand the terminology there, what a process means?
Charistoph wrote:
the Signless wrote:I do not see where it defines "shooting" as having hit the enemy unit.
Did I say anything about hitting the enemy unit? No, simply the attempt To Hit must be initiated.
I'm quite sure my rulebook does not say "attempt To Hit must be initiated".
Pg 30 The Shooting Sequence: 3. Roll To Hit. Roll a D6 for each shot fired. A model's Ballistic Skill determines what it must roll in order to hit the target. Pg 30 Select a Weapon: All models in the unit that are equipped with the selected weapon can now shoot at the target unit with that weapon. Pg 31 under same heading: A player can choose not to fire with certain models if he prefers. Pg 31 Check Range: A weapon must be in range of the target unit to shoot. Pg 32 Roll To Hit: Nah, nothing like what you describe above.
If Out of Range or Line of Sight cannot be established (or in the case of some weapons, ignored), shooting literally does not occur and no attempt To-Hit is made.
That is incorrect. It is not written anywhere in the rules. If you think it does, can you please show the rule? You cannot, because it is not there. I gave a couple of examples to which I expect entertaining answers from you and some other posters.
Naw wrote: Example B: I have three units of Crisis suits. For an argument's sake let's say they are in range with target unit with all of their weapons. Unit A (step 1) with 3 dual missile pods selects a target (step 2), CF is triggered and units B (2x3 plasma rifles) and C (2x3 fusion blaster) join the shooting as per pg 71 of Codex: Tau: resolving their shots as if they were a single unit. Now we have 9 models with 3 different weapons behaving as a single unit. Then I choose weapon group and select missile pods and check the range, all are in range, excellent (step 3). I move to the next step in the shooting sequence and roll to hit (step 4) with +1BS and 6 missile pods, scoring multiple hits. I move to the next step and roll to wound (step 5), causing 10 wounds to the target unit. Then we move to allocating wounds and removing casualties (step 6), either wiping out the unit or leaving one or two models alive, doesn't matter with the example. Next step tells us to select another weapon (step 7) but as I am allowed not to fier any weapons if I don't want to, I stop there.
By your reading as the now separate units B and C have not shot at all, they are free to i) run, ii) go through the shooting sequence again and select new targets, iii) join another CF to ensure destruction
This is a pretty good example, but it's missing one detail: you don't get the +1 BS bonus with the missile pods. Because you have not yet rolled to hit with models from 3+ units you have not "fired" and have not met the requirement of 3+ units adding their "firepower".
I'll give you that, the rule is not very obvious. However didn't you also argue that the +1BS is gained the moment three or more units combine their firepower. I read it to say that the moment I declare that 3+ units combine, CF triggers and also the +1BS to all who shoot as there are enough units participating. Due to the weapon groups I cannot say if all of them get to shoot. If we consider that the only requirement is for 3+ units to be said to Coordinate their firepower, then the rule works in all situations.
In any case, I'd like to get some feedback from FlingitNow, Happyjew, Charistoph & others on these examples.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/07 08:18:31
2015/12/07 08:24:18
Subject: Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
Naw wrote: I'll give you that, the rule is not very obvious. However didn't you also argue that the +1BS is gained the moment three or more units combine their firepower. I read it to say that the moment I declare that 3+ units combine, CF triggers and also the +1BS to all who shoot as there are enough units participating. Due to the weapon groups I cannot say if all of them get to shoot. If we consider that the only requirement is for 3+ units to be said to Coordinate their firepower, then the rule works in all situations.
What I mean is that, under the assumption that you have to be in range with 3+ units and able to roll dice (or even actually roll the dice), you won't get the +1 BS. You aren't officially in range until you measure in step 3 of the shooting sequence, and in your example only the missile pod unit is officially in range. So 3+ units haven't contributed yet, and you don't get the BS bonus for the missile pod shots.
Of course having the bonus apply as soon as 3+ units are committed to the CF attack, regardless of whether they are able to fire weapons or choose to do so, fixes this problem. And that's the whole point of what I'm saying, it's pretty clear evidence that the rule must work that way.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2015/12/07 09:15:46
Subject: Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
Some very good conclusive posts by notredameguy10, Naw, Peregrine, col_impact the Signless and others. Pretty much sums up the discussion, and i hope that the OP got his answer which is yes you can combine your units for the CF +1BS bonus.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/07 18:57:10
2015/12/07 11:17:45
Subject: Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
So I ask again, where does the rulebook define "Shooting"? Not "Shooting Attack" not "Shooting Sequence", but "Shooting".
So far the only thing I've seen defined by the rulebook is "Shooting Attack" and "Shooting Sequence", but no one has posted anything that the rulebook equates "Shooting" with "Shooting Attack" or "Shooting Sequence".
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
2015/12/07 11:22:14
Subject: Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
Charistoph wrote: Again ignoring the simple facts. Even going to Step 7 by skipping over Steps 4-6, still Shooting has not occurred according to the use of "shooting" by the rulebook in question. The action in question never occurs. It never actually happens. If the weapon is out of range, it does not shoot, period. No matter how you try to disguise the situation, this does not change. Simply initiating a Shooting Attack is insufficient to actually be considered shooting. You must establish a form of Line of Sight, and the weapon being used must be in Range to actually shoot. These are the base limits established when determining "Who Can Fire". There are some others, but those are reliant on the specific Weapon Types and not needed for the basic concepts we are discussing.
As I have state before, there are differences between the model performing an action and the unit performing an action. The unit is considered to have made a shooting attack even if there are no hits. This is also seen in cases like how it is the unit that is "Completely Destroyed" while the models are "casualties, except in this case the unit has performed a "shooting attack" even if no model has fired.
And again, a "Shooting Attack" and "Shooting" are used in separate ways in the rulebook, much like deployment and deploying. At no point is the unit ever considered to be shooting by having completed a Shooting Sequence or Shooting Attack without a single weapon firing. Still no quoted associations that a Shooting Attack is Shooting. It contains Shooting, but they are not synonymous in their use in the rulebook.
the Signless wrote:
Charistoph wrote: It is the process, but the actual act of shooting can be stopped as pointed out in determining Who Can Fire. Anything before attempting To Hit is just the start up to shooting and establishing the parameters to start the process. If the requirements are not fulfilled, shooting does not occur, as I have already pointed out. Ignoring the rules set up in Who Can Fire is the same as ignoring everything else.
Why is everything before this point not important? The unit is already making a shooting attack as demonstrated in step 7, a term which I have shown that the rules use interchangeably with shoot. The ability of any one model to actually hit the target does not affect the ability of the unit.
Charistoph wrote: Did I say anything about hitting the enemy unit? No, simply the attempt To Hit must be initiated. If Out of Range or Line of Sight cannot be established (or in the case of some weapons, ignored), shooting literally does not occur and no attempt To-Hit is made.
Okay, thank you for the clarification. Where does the rule book say that to hit rolls must be made for the unit to count as shooting at the enemy unit? Looking through the to hit section, I see no such section where it declares "Now the units counts as having shot" or "this is the shooting part of the shooting attack". If you can provide a quote from a rule book showing where this divide between attempting a shooting attack and shooting occurs, then I will be happy to reconsider the evidence.
Where does it say targeting or starting a Shooting Attack counts as shooting for anything? The simple fact is that if no model or weapon in a unit is in range, you do not even attempt to roll To-Hit or place templates. To-Hit rolls or placing templates are the step right after you finalize if the weapon is in range. If you cannot even do this one step of attempting to hit the target, it means that shooting has failed to occur.
_ghost_ wrote:A unit counts a has shot when said unit went through the shooting attack seqcuence. thats all
Still waiting on a quote that says this. Because your misrepresentations of the following does not state anything to support your position.
BRB wrote:Repeat this process [steps 1-7] until you have selected and resolved attacks from all the weapons in the firing unit. If a unit has no differently named weapons, or if it chooses not to fire any of them, you can choose another of your units to make your next shooting attack, or proceed to the Assault phase.
As I can repeat this process (steps 1-7) without actually being in range for anything, I can make a shooting attack.
And the statement that attempting a Shooting Attack counts as Shooting is... where?
Pg 30 in BRB (at least my version) defines the shooting process. There are 7 steps in sequence and the BRB says: The shooting process can be summarised in seven steps, as described below. Each step is explained in greater detail later in this section.Once you've completed this shooting sequence with one of your units, select another and repeat the sequence.
That is pretty clear, isn't it? The only way to complete a shooting attack with a unit is to go throuhg the whole shooting sequence. The individual steps were discussed many times with rules quotes, but let's go at it one more time below.
Nope. Not clear at all. It is the sequence, but in order to fulfill the statement of shooting within that sequence, the models must shoot the Weapons. If a Multimelta is out of range when the rest of a Tactical Squad shot Pistols at it, would you still consider the unit ineligible to Charge? I would not because the Multimelta was not shot nor could it shoot.
Naw wrote:
Charistoph wrote:3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot.
the Signless wrote:Notice how it is stated that models fire the weapons. It is the models that cannot target the enemy unit, not your unit.
Charistoph wrote:And you are missing the point of the example. Weapons also listed as Shooting as well. The point was to define what "Shooting" is when used by the rulebook.
I thought we have many times? See my quote above. Where is your definition of the unit having shot as per the rulebook?
You have not. You have ignored every actual use of the verb "shooting". You have only paid attention to it as an adjective. And the CF rule only uses the verb, not the adjective. You do know the difference between a verb and adjective, correct?
Naw wrote:
Charistoph wrote:Any weapon that is found to be out of range of all visible enemy models in the target unit cannot shoot.
the Signless wrote:So a model that is out of line of sight cannot shoot. This has no effect on the unit as a whole.
Charistoph wrote:Out of Range is also a consideration, and if out of range, no Shooting happens. No shooting, the unit did not shoot, either.
Pg 30 in the BRB, check it out. By completing the shooting sequence the unit has shot. We have given a couple of examples where you, FlingitNow and some others try to break the shooting sequence:
Example A: A unit of five Tacticals (step 1) with a plasma cannon select a target for shooting (step 2). Plasma cannon is chosen and Range is checked (step 3), just the one weapon in the weapon group is fired. Roll to hit (step 4) causes Gets hot result. I refuse to process any more weapons and don't finish the shooting sequence.
By your reading the unit is now free to i) run, ii) shoot again, even with the plasma cannon, iii) charge an enemy.
And here's your award for not listening.
By rolling Gets Hot!, a weapon has already established that it is not out of Range. If it was out of range, it could not shoot, therefore it could not roll a Gets Hot! result. If all weapons are not in range, the unit has not shot. If it has not shot, then it IS free to run or shoot at a different target at that point.
I already addressed how Gets Hot! interacts with the shooting sequence. Gets Hot! is part of the To Hit process, and in the case of the Plasma Cannon rolls for every shot instead of relying on the To-Hit roll. If Out of Range, there are no shots to roll Gets Hot! for.
Naw wrote:Example B: I have three units of Crisis suits. For an argument's sake let's say they are in range with target unit with all of their weapons. Unit A (step 1) with 3 dual missile pods selects a target (step 2), CF is triggered and units B (2x3 plasma rifles) and C (2x3 fusion blaster) join the shooting as per pg 71 of Codex: Tau: resolving their shots as if they were a single unit. Now we have 9 models with 3 different weapons behaving as a single unit. Then I choose weapon group and select missile pods and check the range, all are in range, excellent (step 3). I move to the next step in the shooting sequence and roll to hit (step 4) with +1BS and 6 missile pods, scoring multiple hits. I move to the next step and roll to wound (step 5), causing 10 wounds to the target unit. Then we move to allocating wounds and removing casualties (step 6), either wiping out the unit or leaving one or two models alive, doesn't matter with the example. Next step tells us to select another weapon (step 7) but as I am allowed not to fier any weapons if I don't want to, I stop there.
By your reading as the now separate units B and C have not shot at all, they are free to i) run, ii) go through the shooting sequence again and select new targets, iii) join another CF to ensure destruction
Have fun with the way you don't follow the written rule. In the 2nd example we could even have some nice signature systems in the unit for multiple uses. Care to review your own misreading of the rule finally?
Actually, you would have broken the CF rule by not including the other two unit's shooting, but still giving the BS boost to the initial shooter. It would be the same as firing the Ordnance Weapon of a Vehicle last, but not Snap Firing the rest of the Weapons. And that would be the owner's fault because they fired the longest ranged weapons first.
Naw wrote:
Charistoph wrote: Again ignoring the simple facts. Even going to Step 7 by skipping over Steps 4-6, still Shooting has not occurred according to the use of "shooting" by the rulebook in question. The action in question never occurs.
That is your own misinterpretation of the events. By nominating a unit to shoot, we have started the shooting attack. At the end of the process it doesn't matter if we have not fired a single weapon, not killed anyone, not rolled any rolls to hit (flamers anyone?) etc. It isn't a requirement. It's only your opinion that it should be so.
Simply initiating a Shooting Attack is insufficient to actually be considered shooting.
I'm so happy about these rules quotes. How did I miss that in my copy of the rulebook! [/sarcasm]
You must establish a form of Line of Sight, and the weapon being used must be in Range to actually shoot
Yes, as has been laid out in the shooting sequence, this is step 3. However we are also told that we do not have to fire a single weapon if we don't want to and still go through the shooting sequence to step 7 where we are told to choose another weapon if we want to and go through steps 3-6 again.
These are the base limits established when determining "Who Can Fire".
Certainly you can read through the whole shooting sequence steps to understand the process of shooting? I hope you understand the terminology there, what a process means?
Charistoph wrote:
the Signless wrote:I do not see where it defines "shooting" as having hit the enemy unit.
Did I say anything about hitting the enemy unit? No, simply the attempt To Hit must be initiated.
I'm quite sure my rulebook does not say "attempt To Hit must be initiated".
Pg 30 The Shooting Sequence: 3. Roll To Hit. Roll a D6 for each shot fired. A model's Ballistic Skill determines what it must roll in order to hit the target. Pg 30 Select a Weapon: All models in the unit that are equipped with the selected weapon can now shoot at the target unit with that weapon. Pg 31 under same heading: A player can choose not to fire with certain models if he prefers. Pg 31 Check Range: A weapon must be in range of the target unit to shoot. Pg 32 Roll To Hit: Nah, nothing like what you describe above.
Are you sure you can tell the difference between the actual action and the process surrounding the action? Apparently not.
Naw wrote:
If Out of Range or Line of Sight cannot be established (or in the case of some weapons, ignored), shooting literally does not occur and no attempt To-Hit is made.
That is incorrect. It is not written anywhere in the rules. If you think it does, can you please show the rule? You cannot, because it is not there. I gave a couple of examples to which I expect entertaining answers from you and some other posters.
I have under Who can Fire, why do you not listen? If a model is out of range, it cannot shoot. If it cannot establish a form of Line of Sight, it cannot shoot. It says it right there in literal terms. And this is the last thing before rolling To-Hit or the equivalent for the Weapon. Very simple extrapolation of the process.
_ghost_ wrote:the Rulebook define shooting unitwise as the known shooting attack.
But it also defines shoting model wise as the act to resolve the dice for hiting and so on.
No, it does not. It states that the unit makes a shooting attack, which then goes on to state things like "nominate a unit TO shoot", and so on. It is never stated that a unit is considered shooting even if no models shoot, nor anything of the equivalent.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
2015/12/07 17:49:26
Subject: Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
By rolling Gets Hot!, a weapon has already established that it is not out of Range. If it was out of range, it could not shoot, therefore it could not roll a Gets Hot! result. If all weapons are not in range, the unit has not shot. If it has not shot, then it IS free to run or shoot at a different target at that point.
I already addressed how Gets Hot! interacts with the shooting sequence. Gets Hot! is part of the To Hit process, and in the case of the Plasma Cannon rolls for every shot instead of relying on the To-Hit roll. If Out of Range, there are no shots to roll Gets Hot! for.
You fail completely at seeing how Gets Hot! makes your argument wholly untenable.
Spoiler:
Weapons that do not roll To Hit (such as Blast weapons) must roll a D6 for each shot
immediately before firing. On a 2+, the shot is resolved as normal. For each roll of a 1, the
weapon Gets Hot; that shot is not fired and the firing model immediately suffers a single
Wound
Your argument is that a model must have fired a shot for a unit to be considered shooting. Gets Hot! makes it so that the firing never happens and a shot has not been fired. According to your argument, the unit of 1 marine with a heavy 1 blast gets hot weapon would be able to shoot again, run, and/or assault. Your argument allows a model to shoot, run, or assault after a Gets Hot! result since you are equating shooting with shots fired and Gets Hot! declares the shot as not being fired.
Your argument is premised on the assumption that for a unit to shoot at least one model must fire a shot. However, that premise is no where stated in the rules and it leads to situations (as exemplified in the Gets Hot! example) where the rules don't work. You are not permitted to add your made-up premises to the rules and call it RAW. Label your argument HYWPI since you are adding home-brewed rules that are simply not in the BRB.
For a unit to shoot, all that the rules require is that the unit has line of sight with a target unit and that the unit elect to go through the shooting sequence. The rules do not care how many models actually fire shots in the unit. CF only cares if the unit shoots which it does when it legally attempts a shooting attack and CF does not care if any of the models in the unit actually fire shots. The models could be in the situation of not firing shots due to player choice, the gets hot mechanic, or being out of range. Once the unit goes through the shooting process, the unit will not be available to shoot again, having expended its shooting by legally attempting a shooting attack.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2015/12/07 18:34:01
2015/12/07 22:33:50
Subject: Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
col_impact wrote: You fail completely at seeing how Gets Hot! makes your argument wholly untenable.
Spoiler:
Weapons that do not roll To Hit (such as Blast weapons) must roll a D6 for each shot
immediately before firing. On a 2+, the shot is resolved as normal. For each roll of a 1, the
weapon Gets Hot; that shot is not fired and the firing model immediately suffers a single
Wound
Your argument is that a model must have fired a shot for a unit to be considered shooting. Gets Hot! makes it so that the firing never happens and a shot has not been fired. According to your argument, the unit of 1 marine with a heavy 1 blast gets hot weapon would be able to shoot again, run, and/or assault. Your argument allows a model to shoot, run, or assault after a Gets Hot! result since you are equating shooting with shots fired and Gets Hot! declares the shot as not being fired.
And even then, you still have not countered the base premise then, either. If it is Out of Range, it still does not roll Gets Hot!
col_impact wrote: Your argument is premised on the assumption that for a unit to shoot at least one model must fire a shot. However, that premise is no where stated in the rules and it leads to situations (as exemplified in the Gets Hot! example) where the rules don't work. You are not permitted to add your made-up premises to the rules and call it RAW. Label your argument HYWPI since you are adding home-brewed rules that are simply not in the BRB.
I cannot mark HYWPI because the use of the word "shoot" does not match anything else than I have stated. The word "shoot" is not used in any other way, yet you would insist that we use another definition without proper context nor without actual definitions stating otherwise. I have stated as such numerous times that this is how the rulebook uses the word "shoot", but I have not actually stated it has been actually defined in the rulebook. Again, you and others choose not to listen or understand the paradigm I present, but instead fold your paradigm over my words to try and strawman them down.
col_impact wrote: For a unit to shoot, all that the rules require is that the unit has line of sight with a target unit and that the unit elect to go through the shooting sequence. The rules do not care how many models actually fire shots in the unit. CF only cares if the unit shoots which it does when it legally attempts a shooting attack and CF does not care if any of the models in the unit actually fire shots. The models could be in the situation of not firing shots due to player choice, the gets hot mechanic, or being out of range. Once the unit goes through the shooting process, the unit will not be available to shoot again, having expended its shooting by legally attempting a shooting attack.
Again, QUOTE the definition or the rules if you are so certain. Nine pages, and while other associated terms have been defined or presented, none has been presented to specifically differentiate a unit's shooting from that established when used by its models or its models' weapons. You have claimed no definition of "shooting" exists, and yet seek to apply another definition to it, counter to how it is used.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
2015/12/07 23:22:20
Subject: Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
col_impact wrote: You fail completely at seeing how Gets Hot! makes your argument wholly untenable.
Spoiler:
Weapons that do not roll To Hit (such as Blast weapons) must roll a D6 for each shot
immediately before firing. On a 2+, the shot is resolved as normal. For each roll of a 1, the
weapon Gets Hot; that shot is not fired and the firing model immediately suffers a single
Wound
Your argument is that a model must have fired a shot for a unit to be considered shooting. Gets Hot! makes it so that the firing never happens and a shot has not been fired. According to your argument, the unit of 1 marine with a heavy 1 blast gets hot weapon would be able to shoot again, run, and/or assault. Your argument allows a model to shoot, run, or assault after a Gets Hot! result since you are equating shooting with shots fired and Gets Hot! declares the shot as not being fired.
And even then, you still have not countered the base premise then, either. If it is Out of Range, it still does not roll Gets Hot!
Incorrect! My strict reading of the rules produces wholly consistent results. A unit comprised entirely of models that are out of range (or made to be out of range by another unit in CF wiping out all enemy models in range) can and will make a legal shooting attack in which no models fire any shots. Per the rules the units ability to shoot is expended and it cannot run or assault. This is because a units ability to attempt a legal shooting attack only requires line-of-sight.
Your faulty reasoning allows a model to shoot after rolling a Gets Hot result.
Your faulty reasoning also allows a scenario where 3 units join together in CF and if the first unit is able to totally obliterate the foe, the 2nd and 3rd units do not count as shooting and are then available to then shoot or run or join another CF. I guess CF no longer has to worry about overkill, LOL.
There is nothing in the rules that indicate for a unit to count as shooting that at least one model must have fired a shot.
Once a unit makes a legal shooting attack attempt and runs through the shooting process as defined in the shooting sequence, the unit shoots and will have expended its capability to shoot. For units, shooting is completing steps 1 through 7 of the Shooting Sequence. For units, shooting is simply attempting a legal shooting attack.
When the rules reference that 'you can choose any order for your units to shoot' it means you can choose any order for your unit to attempt its collective shooting attack in relation to your other units. "Shoot" here refers to collective shooting, ie shooting means something different at the unit level than at the model level. Models fire shots. Units don't fire shots, but shoot in the sense of making a collective shooting attack. Units shoot by processing their shooting, by queueing up shooting attacks and running through the shooting sequence. Shooting is defined differently for units than for models. At the unit level we are dealing with a collective. The CF rule only cares about the unit level definition and whether or not the unit can legally shoot, which per the rules we can as long as we have line of sight.
Spoiler:
THE SHOOTING PHASE
As armies engage, guns thunder and shrapnel rains down from the sky. In a Warhammer
40,000 battle, a player’s army fires in the Shooting phase of his turn. During the Shooting
phase, units armed with ranged weapons can fire at the enemy. You can choose any order
for your units to shoot, but you must complete all the firing by one unit before you move
on to the next.
The shooting process can be summarised in seven steps, as described below. Each step is
explained in greater detail later in this section. Once you’ve completed this shooting
sequence with one of your units, select another and repeat the sequence. Once you have
completed steps 1 to 7 for each unit in your army that you wish to make a shooting attack,
carry on to the Assault phase.
The Shooting Sequence
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but
has yet to do so this turn.
2. Choose a Target. The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see.
3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models
equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the
target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one
visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in
range, cannot shoot.
4. Roll To Hit. Roll a D6 for each shot fired. A model’s Ballistic Skill determines
what it must roll in order to hit the target.
5. Roll To Wound. For each shot that hit, roll again to see if it wounds the
target. The result needed is determined by comparing the Strength of the firing
weapon with the majority Toughness of the target unit.
6. Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties. Any Wounds caused by the firing
unit must now be allocated, one at a time, to the closest model in the target
unit. A model with a Wound allocated to it can take a saving throw (if it has
one) to avoid being wounded. If a model is reduced to 0 Wounds, it is removed
as a casualty. Wounds are then allocated to the next closest model. Continue to
allocate Wounds and take saving throws until all Wounds have been resolved.
7. Select Another Weapon. After resolving all shots from the currently selected
weapon, if the firing unit is equipped with differently named weapons that
have yet to fire, select another weapon and repeat steps 3 to 6.
Spoiler:
If a unit has no
differently named weapons, or if it chooses not to fire any of them, you can choose
another of your units to make your next shooting attack, or proceed to the Assault phase.
2015/12/08 01:38:53
Subject: Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
col_impact wrote: Incorrect! My strict reading of the rules produces wholly consistent results.
How's your chest after beating it?
But still correct. If the Weapon is out of Range, not Shooting is done, no shots are fired. No shots fired, and so no Gets Hot! roll. You are answering like a politician, providing the answer you want without addressing the question asked.
col_impact wrote: A unit comprised entirely of models that are out of range (or made to be out of range by another unit in CF wiping out all enemy models in range) can and will make a legal shooting attack in which no models fire any shots. Per the rules the units ability to shoot is expended and it cannot run or assault. This is because a units ability to attempt a legal shooting attack only requires line-of-sight.
And if a Shooting Attack was all that was required by CF, this would have been done page 1 or page 2. But a shooting attack is not the qualification, shooting is. And if out of range, no actual shooting occurs.
Can you demonstrate how shooting occurs without answering Line of Sight or Range? Shooting Attacks, sure, but then, they have yet to be classified as the same thing by the rules nor in the word's usage by the rulebook.
col_impact wrote: Your faulty reasoning allows a model to shoot after rolling a Gets Hot result.
I have never stated that nor supported that.
col_impact wrote: Your faulty reasoning also allows a scenario where 3 units join together in CF and if the first unit is able to totally obliterate the foe, the 2nd and 3rd units do not count as shooting and are then available to then shoot or run or join another CF. I guess CF no longer has to worry about overkill, LOL.
Maybe, maybe not. Odds are as good as the units carrying the same weapons at least. But you still have yet to prove your position properly with any solidity at all.
col_impact wrote: There is nothing in the rules that indicate for a unit to count as shooting that at least one model must have fired a shot.
There is nothing to indicate that it is not, either. And considering how the verb is used, my position actually carries the support of the book. You have presented nothing that doesn't require disassociating the word from its type.
col_impact wrote: Once a unit makes a legal shooting attack attempt and runs through the shooting process as defined in the shooting sequence, the unit shoots and will have expended its capability to shoot. For units, shooting is completing steps 1 through 7 of the Shooting Sequence. For units, shooting is simply attempting a legal shooting attack.
And what happens if the unit never completes Step 3 because Who Can Fire is failed for the entire unit the first time around and cannot move to Step 4? We are not told to just stop. We are not told to just skip to Step 7 or move on. We are already told to check range at Step 2 when we choose the unit. Only someone deliberately sabotaging their own efforts would set themselves up so they cannot every attempt Step 4, and that is a situation the rulebook does not address.
col_impact wrote: When the rules reference that 'you can choose any order for your units to shoot' it means you can choose any order for your unit to attempt its collective shooting attack in relation to your other units. "Shoot" here refers to collective shooting, ie shooting means something different at the unit level than at the model level. Models fire shots. Units don't fire shots, but shoot in the sense of making a collective shooting attack. Units shoot by processing their shooting, by queueing up shooting attacks and running through the shooting sequence. Shooting is defined differently for units than for models. At the unit level we are dealing with a collective. The CF rule only cares about the unit level definition and whether or not the unit can legally shoot, which per the rules we can as long as we have line of sight.
And you are confusing the future tense with the present tense. "You can choose any order for your units TO shoot", is a future tense, not a present one. The useage in step 3 denies the ability to use a present tense version. Decision to initiate is not the same as carrying it out if you fail to meet the requisite requirements.
A unit completely out of range from its chosen target with any weapon cannot shoot any of its weapons. A unit that cannot establish a form of Line of Sight to its chosen target with any weapon cannot shoot any of its weapons.
THE SHOOTING PHASE
As armies engage, guns thunder and shrapnel rains down from the sky. In a Warhammer 40,000 battle, a player’s army fires in the Shooting phase of his turn. During the Shooting phase, units armed with ranged weapons can fire at the enemy. You can choose any order for your units[color=green] to shoot, but you must complete all the firing by one unit before you move on to the next.
[/color]The shooting process can be summarised in seven steps, as described below. Each step is explained in greater detail later in this section. Once you’ve completed this shooting sequence with one of your units, select another and repeat the sequence. Once you have completed steps 1 to 7 for each unit in your army that you wish to make a shooting attack, carry on to the Assault phase.
The Shooting Sequence
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn.
2. Choose a Target. The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see. (In the larger text of this step, range is also checked.)
3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot.
4. Roll To Hit. Roll a D6 for each shot fired. A model’s Ballistic Skill determines
what it must roll in order to hit the target.
5. Roll To Wound. For each shot that hit, roll again to see if it wounds the
target. The result needed is determined by comparing the Strength of the firing
weapon with the majority Toughness of the target unit.
6. Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties. Any Wounds caused by the firing
unit must now be allocated, one at a time, to the closest model in the target
unit. A model with a Wound allocated to it can take a saving throw (if it has
one) to avoid being wounded. If a model is reduced to 0 Wounds, it is removed
as a casualty. Wounds are then allocated to the next closest model. Continue to
allocate Wounds and take saving throws until all Wounds have been resolved.
7. Select Another Weapon. After resolving all shots from the currently selected
weapon, if the firing unit is equipped with differently named weapons that
have yet to fire, select another weapon and repeat steps 3 to 6.
Spoiler:
If a unit has no
differently named weapons, or if it chooses not to fire any of them, you can choose
another of your units to make your next shooting attack, or proceed to the Assault phase.
Your repetition of the rules while ignoring their entire language does not mean you have an actual case.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
2015/12/08 02:17:51
Subject: Re:Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
The rules I quoted indicate 2 separate uses of 'shoot.' 'Shoot' occurs both with unit and with model. Charistophe, et al, are wrongly trying to apply the 'individuated' model definition to the 'collective' unit usage.
'To Shoot'
for units - to make a collective shooting attack, ie in game terms to step through the shooting sequence, to resolve all the shots from the collective [unit]
for models - to fire a shot with a single shooting weapon
At the unit level then, 'shoot' refers to dealing with the portion of the game that involves shooting (the shooting sequence) - when your unit of models collectively resolves its shots at a target unit of enemy models. This is wholly consistent with English semantic usage of 'shoot: to engage in a portion of a game that involves shooting' . We are not dealing with an individual instance of firing a shot with a single weapon from one individual model to another individual model but shooting en masse from a collective of models with a plethora of weapons to another collective of models.
Examples:
My raiders shoot at your space elves. (Collectively resolve all the shots from my [unit of] raiders various weapons at your space elves unit)
My raider shoots his pistol at your space elf (My [individual] raider [model] fires a shot with his single equipped pistol at your space elf [model]
Consider:
1) "You can choose any order for your units to shoot, but you must complete all the firing by one unit before you move
on to the next."
Incorrect: You can choose any order for your units to fire a shot with a single shooting weapon, but you must complete all the firing by one unit before you move
on to the next.
Correct: You can choose any order for your units to make their collective shooting attacks, but you must complete all the firing by one unit before you move
on to the next.
Correct: You can choose any order for your units to collectively resolve their shots, but you must complete all the firing by one unit before you move
on to the next.
2) "Choose a Target. The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see."
Incorrect: Choose a Target. The unit can fire a shot with a single shooting weapon at an enemy unit that it can see.
Correct: Choose a Target. The unit can make a collective shooting attack at an enemy unit that it can see.
Correct: Choose a Target. The unit can collectively resolve its shots at an enemy unit that it can see.
3) "Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit."
Incorrect: Every model that wishes to make a collective shooting attack must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit.
Correct: Every model that wishes to fire a shot with a single shooting weapon must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit.
This isn't rocket science. The game implements the notion of 'shooting' differently when dealing with collective units versus individual models.
Collective - My group of As with its bunches of shooty things shoots at your horde of Bs. [resolve a shooting attack en masse at your bunch of stuff]
Individual - My individual A shoots his gun at your B. [fire a shot with a single weapon]
And now for the bonus question . . . which usage of 'shoot' does Coordinated Fire refer to? Hint: collective!
Spoiler:
Whenever a unit from a Hunter Contingent selects a target in the shooting phase, any number of other units from the same Detachment who can still shoot can add their fire power to the attack. These units must shoot the same target, resolving their shots as if they were a single unit - this includes the use of markerlight abilities. When 3 or more units combine their firepower, the firing models add 1 to their Ballistic Skill
Incorrect:
Spoiler:
Whenever a unit from a Hunter Contingent selects a target in the shooting phase, any number of other units from the same Detachment who can still fire a shot with a single weapon can add their fire power to the attack. These units must fire a shot with a single weapon at the same target, resolving their shots as if they were a single unit - this includes the use of markerlight abilities. When 3 or more units combine their firepower, the firing models add 1 to their Ballistic Skill
Correct:
Spoiler:
Whenever a unit from a Hunter Contingent selects a target in the shooting phase, any number of other units from the same Detachment who can still make a collective shooting attack can add their fire power to the attack. These units must resolve their collective shots at the same target, resolving their shots as if they were a single unit - this includes the use of markerlight abilities. When 3 or more units combine their firepower, the firing models add 1 to their Ballistic Skill
This message was edited 13 times. Last update was at 2015/12/08 03:58:34
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