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 Blackie wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


Wyches become a far better investment when you're running 5 in a raider. My standard troop unit for DE currently is a raider containing 5 wyches with hydra, BP, Ago, and Phantasm, and 5 wracks with electrocorrosive/hexrifle and ossefactor. That fills 2 troop slots, has zero morale issues, puts out a decent amount of hurt on whatever you need it to and still benefits from everything that the wyches have to offer - namely the Hekatrix and No Escape.

When I run a full wych cult army (which surprisingly does work pretty well in an environment that is more thematic/TAC rather than the kind of fluff impaling WAAC tournament lists) I will run that unit as 2x5 wyches, and I've occasionally toyed with Incubi as the killers rather than wracks, but I've become addicted to battalions so wracks are my go-to.

In my wych cult list I run 2x9 wyches with 1 agoniser and 1 blast pistol in raiders, both units joined by a succubus and 3x5 wyches in venoms, also these units with blast pistol and agoniser. Then 2x6 reavers with 2 blasters and talons each and 3 ravagers with dark lances. I know reavers are not amazing and I could run more wyches/scourges/beasts/flyers, maybe another raider with incubi but I love the models, they absolutely fit the theme, and I don't actually own other wyches, the beastpack or any flyers. Hellions are one the units that I hate most, so not an option for me

In a dedicated list wyches could be average/decent I think, but generally speaking they're still terrible. Tac marines, compared to them, are gold

Tac marines also seem terrible when you run them as a 9 man squad with a flamer in a rhino with a captain. You can make the best units in the game seem terrible if you run them with the wrong composition. (I'm not saying wyches are anywhere near the best troops, they have the narrowest niche out of our three, but they can work)

Your list isn't terrible but for the 5-wych squads in the venoms, that's a waste. Our cheaper troop units should be run 2x5 in a raider almost every time, with the possible exception of a dedicated strength drug wych squad at 10-man to get the three hydras and a power sword 'trix. With all our other footslogging units, the benefit for 10 usually doesn't beat out 2x5, and 9 is generally horrible because specials and sarges carry our units for the most part.

You have 3 heavy supports already, you can split a squad of reavers for 3 FAs, elites are dirt cheap to get into with Beastmasters or a couple ridealong Sslyths, maybe a venomful of incubi. You can easily get to a battalion by going to 6x wych squads in 3x Raiders, a venom for both Succubi, and maybe a second venom for some incubi. You'll re-evaluate the mileage you get out of wyches when each raiderful gets double the hydra gauntlets and double the hekatrixes.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'll be back home in a few hours so I can get to work on that. However the initial standout is the Trojan, which I know nothing of the rules.

The Trojan gives a single <Regiment> vehicle within 6" re-rolls on failed rolls to hit. (For guard that means any 1-3s)

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'll be back home in a few hours so I can get to work on that. However the initial standout is the Trojan, which I know nothing of the rules.

The Trojan gives a single <Regiment> vehicle within 6" re-rolls on failed rolls to hit. (For guard that means any 1-3s)

That makes more sense to use two of in that case but I'll provide my take after this damned conference call.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'll be back home in a few hours so I can get to work on that. However the initial standout is the Trojan, which I know nothing of the rules.

The Trojan gives a single <Regiment> vehicle within 6" re-rolls on failed rolls to hit. (For guard that means any 1-3s)

That makes more sense to use two of in that case but I'll provide my take after this damned conference call.

Sadly I don't own two, but I plan on replacing the Salamander with it when I can.

Bloodletters are the worst. Squishy, no transport options, unreliable summoning (also not fluffy if you do summon) etc.

Only positive is that they are easy to paint.

Sumilidon wrote:
Bloodletters are the worst. Squishy, no transport options, unreliable summoning (also not fluffy if you do summon) etc.

Only positive is that they are easy to paint.

I mean the summoning is super reliable, you have a 1/216 chance to not summon a minimum sized unit. You have ~84% chance of summoning 20

Breng77 wrote:

Sumilidon wrote:
Bloodletters are the worst. Squishy, no transport options, unreliable summoning (also not fluffy if you do summon) etc.

Only positive is that they are easy to paint.

I mean the summoning is super reliable, you have a 1/216 chance to not summon a minimum sized unit. You have ~84% chance of summoning 20

...and a zero percent chance if they kill the summoner.

Sumilidon wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

Sumilidon wrote:
Bloodletters are the worst. Squishy, no transport options, unreliable summoning (also not fluffy if you do summon) etc.

Only positive is that they are easy to paint.

I mean the summoning is super reliable, you have a 1/216 chance to not summon a minimum sized unit. You have ~84% chance of summoning 20

...and a zero percent chance if they kill the summoner.

So you take multiple characters than can summon, and characters are pretty hard to kill. If you lose all your characters prior to summoning something has gone horribly wrong.

Breng77 wrote:

Sumilidon wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

Sumilidon wrote:
Bloodletters are the worst. Squishy, no transport options, unreliable summoning (also not fluffy if you do summon) etc.

Only positive is that they are easy to paint.

I mean the summoning is super reliable, you have a 1/216 chance to not summon a minimum sized unit. You have ~84% chance of summoning 20

...and a zero percent chance if they kill the summoner.

So you take multiple characters than can summon, and characters are pretty hard to kill. If you lose all your characters prior to summoning something has gone horribly wrong.

Ok so you need to take several characters to summon your squishy daemons so that the character doesn't die doing so.

Beyond summoning, Bloodletters are still the worst troops in my opinion.

It seems a common sentiment on dakka is: "my own units are the worst in the game. I'm actually the best player in the world, I only lose because my units are terrible."

 ross-128 wrote:
It seems a common sentiment on dakka is: "my own units are the worst in the game. I'm actually the best player in the world, I only lose because my units are terrible."

+1 to this.
I think the problem is that many people only ever play with a single faction. It's quite difficult to get a decent understanding of an army from only one side of the table. It really helps to experience it from both.

the_scotsman wrote:


Your list isn't terrible but for the 5-wych squads in the venoms, that's a waste. Our cheaper troop units should be run 2x5 in a raider almost every time, with the possible exception of a dedicated strength drug wych squad at 10-man to get the three hydras and a power sword 'trix. With all our other footslogging units, the benefit for 10 usually doesn't beat out 2x5, and 9 is generally horrible because specials and sarges carry our units for the most part.

You have 3 heavy supports already, you can split a squad of reavers for 3 FAs, elites are dirt cheap to get into with Beastmasters or a couple ridealong Sslyths, maybe a venomful of incubi. You can easily get to a battalion by going to 6x wych squads in 3x Raiders, a venom for both Succubi, and maybe a second venom for some incubi. You'll re-evaluate the mileage you get out of wyches when each raiderful gets double the hydra gauntlets and double the hekatrixes.

Thanks for the input. My list is basically a fun list since I have a general drukhari army, not really a wych cult one and with only 2 raiders and 5 venoms I don't have that many choices. Sometimes I play it only for the fun of it but I know it's not even remotely competitive. The units of 9 are there because I put the succubus with them, as they're the only HQs that fit the theme and I never thought of running them alone. Incubi and sslyths could work well but I wanted only units related to the wych cult, those ones that can have the keyword. I may add beasts, flyers or hellions.

I've never tried wyches in general drukhari lists though, I only have 30ish of them because I love the models.

 ross-128 wrote:
It seems a common sentiment on dakka is: "my own units are the worst in the game. I'm actually the best player in the world, I only lose because my units are terrible."

I don't really think that, and most of my opinion on this matter is from facing other tac marines. They're just not something I have to plan for, think about, or game against. I base a lot off my very lopsided win rates against various factions in various editions.

Martel732 wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
It seems a common sentiment on dakka is: "my own units are the worst in the game. I'm actually the best player in the world, I only lose because my units are terrible."

I don't really think that, and most of my opinion on this matter is from facing other tac marines. They're just not something I have to plan for, think about, or game against.

This rings false to me, as every time I hear about the effectiveness of a unit, it's calculated in the number of marines it is able to kill in a turn. I'm sure you've mathhammered plenty of units in the past, so you probably know (if only by default) how each of them will fare against marines more than any other opponent, because it's the yardstick that everyone seems to use as an average.

Sure, there's also GEQ and TEQ, but they're basically the Marine -1 and +1.

So marines are held up as the average in toughness. Except actually there's not many things that are MEQ, that I can think of offhand. There's a lot of GEQ (Orks and Eldar both fit more into this category than compared to marines).

There's a big difference between meqs and tac marines. There ARE meq units I care about. Although in 8th, I'm way more interested in mowing down geqs. People still using marines as a yardstick are stuck in the past. Most weapons in 8th are quite efficient vs marines; you don't even have to do math.

The overall debate still boils down to paying 13 pts to do nothing or paying less to do nothing. I'd rather pay less, but I can't entertain another army for at least 3 years.

I mean, I run Lords of War as my "Troops" and I pay something like 28 pts per wound done to tactical marines.

Tactical marines pay fewer points per wound done to other tactical marines.

Baneblades are worse troops than tactical marines.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I mean, I run Lords of War as my "Troops" and I pay something like 28 pts per wound done to tactical marines.

Tactical marines pay fewer points per wound done to other tactical marines.

Baneblades are worse troops than tactical marines.

That's only one metric. Lots of weapons that lay waste to marines can't do jack to a baneblade. Again, the issue is more complex than any single metric. It's the poor firepower, PLUS the pricetag, PLUS the meta, PLUS the inefficient stats, PLUS the buff to hordes, PLUS the price of the weapon upgrades, PLUS the degredation of 3+ saves. Every edition has a similar, yet different set of metrics that combine to make tacs pure garbage.

Niiru wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
It seems a common sentiment on dakka is: "my own units are the worst in the game. I'm actually the best player in the world, I only lose because my units are terrible."

I don't really think that, and most of my opinion on this matter is from facing other tac marines. They're just not something I have to plan for, think about, or game against.

This rings false to me, as every time I hear about the effectiveness of a unit, it's calculated in the number of marines it is able to kill in a turn. I'm sure you've mathhammered plenty of units in the past, so you probably know (if only by default) how each of them will fare against marines more than any other opponent, because it's the yardstick that everyone seems to use as an average.

Sure, there's also GEQ and TEQ, but they're basically the Marine -1 and +1.

So marines are held up as the average in toughness. Except actually there's not many things that are MEQ, that I can think of offhand. There's a lot of GEQ (Orks and Eldar both fit more into this category than compared to marines).

Tactical Marines are the usual MEQ you calculate against because newer players gravitate towards Marines, and ergo bring the stereotype units. Against competitive players you calculate against things like, for example, how quickly you can kill a Razorback.

 ross-128 wrote:
It seems a common sentiment on dakka is: "my own units are the worst in the game. I'm actually the best player in the world, I only lose because my units are terrible."

Well, for my CSM I have units ranging from quite good (some cult troops) to okay (cultists, other cult troops) to fairly bad (CSM squads).

For Admech though, I would actually say our troop choices are kinda bad. I mean, the awful morale that we can't even patch easily is bad enough, but they are overpriced for what they do as well. Mostly decent for ranger snipers, otherwise I look to allies for my battalion filling and obj secured needs.

I don't think there's a single person that's said ork boyz are bad, and in the case of grots there's actually comparable units in other codex you can judge them by.

Also, I've never said I'm a good player :V

Bloodletters are absolutely not the worst troop. By far. A 7 pt model that gives 5S and 2A on the charge OR when they get charged. 5++ and a power sword. All for 7 points a model? You don't footslog them, you summon them and they aren't hard to. I'd go so far as to say they are going to be a hidden gem when people start summoning more with the new CSM codex.

Hoodwink wrote:
Bloodletters are absolutely not the worst troop. By far. A 7 pt model that gives 5S and 2A on the charge OR when they get charged. 5++ and a power sword. All for 7 points a model? You don't footslog them, you summon them and they aren't hard to. I'd go so far as to say they are going to be a hidden gem when people start summoning more with the new CSM codex.

I 2nd this, for 4points more than a cultist with dbl the killing power and a 5++ they are good, i own 40 of them and i never taught in any games they were a waste, even when a whole unit times but they are 9pt not 7 (iirc correctly)

 Blackie wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


Your list isn't terrible but for the 5-wych squads in the venoms, that's a waste. Our cheaper troop units should be run 2x5 in a raider almost every time, with the possible exception of a dedicated strength drug wych squad at 10-man to get the three hydras and a power sword 'trix. With all our other footslogging units, the benefit for 10 usually doesn't beat out 2x5, and 9 is generally horrible because specials and sarges carry our units for the most part.

You have 3 heavy supports already, you can split a squad of reavers for 3 FAs, elites are dirt cheap to get into with Beastmasters or a couple ridealong Sslyths, maybe a venomful of incubi. You can easily get to a battalion by going to 6x wych squads in 3x Raiders, a venom for both Succubi, and maybe a second venom for some incubi. You'll re-evaluate the mileage you get out of wyches when each raiderful gets double the hydra gauntlets and double the hekatrixes.

Thanks for the input. My list is basically a fun list since I have a general drukhari army, not really a wych cult one and with only 2 raiders and 5 venoms I don't have that many choices. Sometimes I play it only for the fun of it but I know it's not even remotely competitive. The units of 9 are there because I put the succubus with them, as they're the only HQs that fit the theme and I never thought of running them alone. Incubi and sslyths could work well but I wanted only units related to the wych cult, those ones that can have the keyword. I may add beasts, flyers or hellions.

I've never tried wyches in general drukhari lists though, I only have 30ish of them because I love the models.

I don't really run them alone, I run them together, with my goal being to have ~6 power levels in any given transport (I just use it as a rough estimate, I'm not playing exclusively narrative games). If you give your opponent any more than that, that's the transport they're going to beat down.

The other, super-cheap option is just to take a succubus on foot and give her the move drugs. The only other unit that uses them particularly well is hellions, which you're not taking, and with move drugs the succubus can pretty much keep up with the transports and the character rule and her 4++ protects her fairly well.

The thing with the wych vs warrior comparison that you're bound to make is that it's a lot easier to see the impact of a warrior unit. they basically get double the firepower of an equivalent unit of wyches - rapid fire 1 instead of pistol 1, and 2 blast shots instead of 1. what they lose is 1 attack, No Escape and Dodge, which its harder to see the impact of in game. Couple that with assault being much more technical in 8th than shooting, where the difference between positioning your models perfectly to box off a tank instead of just charging without thinking about it is a very big deal, and the conclusion of "wyches and wracks suck, warriors are the only choice that's good" is an easy one to make.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Hoodwink wrote:
Bloodletters are absolutely not the worst troop. By far. A 7 pt model that gives 5S and 2A on the charge OR when they get charged. 5++ and a power sword. All for 7 points a model? You don't footslog them, you summon them and they aren't hard to. I'd go so far as to say they are going to be a hidden gem when people start summoning more with the new CSM codex.

I 2nd this, for 4points more than a cultist with dbl the killing power and a 5++ they are good, i own 40 of them and i never taught in any games they were a waste, even when a whole unit times but they are 9pt not 7 (iirc correctly)

They got a points drop in the newest Chaos Space Marine codex.

Oh ok, yeah i havent look at the new Codex yet, thats great! Even better now.

the_scotsman wrote:


The thing with the wych vs warrior comparison that you're bound to make is that it's a lot easier to see the impact of a warrior unit. they basically get double the firepower of an equivalent unit of wyches - rapid fire 1 instead of pistol 1, and 2 blast shots instead of 1. what they lose is 1 attack, No Escape and Dodge, which its harder to see the impact of in game. Couple that with assault being much more technical in 8th than shooting, where the difference between positioning your models perfectly to box off a tank instead of just charging without thinking about it is a very big deal, and the conclusion of "wyches and wracks suck, warriors are the only choice that's good" is an easy one to make.

But do Wracks really not look good? I think they do -- cheap, T5 (with the Haemy, and why not have one if you're bringing Wracks?) objective holders/tarpitters. I think they're underrated (Covens stuff in general seems strong, with the exception of the pain engines, and even the Talos isn't bad)

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


The thing with the wych vs warrior comparison that you're bound to make is that it's a lot easier to see the impact of a warrior unit. they basically get double the firepower of an equivalent unit of wyches - rapid fire 1 instead of pistol 1, and 2 blast shots instead of 1. what they lose is 1 attack, No Escape and Dodge, which its harder to see the impact of in game. Couple that with assault being much more technical in 8th than shooting, where the difference between positioning your models perfectly to box off a tank instead of just charging without thinking about it is a very big deal, and the conclusion of "wyches and wracks suck, warriors are the only choice that's good" is an easy one to make.

But do Wracks really not look good? I think they do -- cheap, T5 (with the Haemy, and why not have one if you're bringing Wracks?) objective holders/tarpitters. I think they're underrated (Covens stuff in general seems strong, with the exception of the pain engines, and even the Talos isn't bad)

Wyches have a role and that role is not always in every game, a Warrior can out shine a Wych easily due to 24" range shooting and still some melee, Wyches melee is equal to their points.... cheap.

But there are 2 problems (one we already said, Lack of damage) and the other problem is that their role.... a melee unit to tie up more important units aka No Escape/4++ is almost all but worthless in 8th for DE.

We have Wracks, Incubi, Claw Fiends etc... that can and will kill 2x if not 3x the amount that a wych can do, also b.c DE has a HUGE amount of D6 and 2D shooting, you dont need to tie up units like Terminators, a Ravager with Dis Cannons (9 S5 AP-3 2D shots) for 185pts can kill a 200pt+ termi unit from 36".

Wracks on the other hand has same amount of attacks, a better agoniser, T4 or T5, no pistols but can take flamers or Ossefactors (for mortal Wounds) i've had Wracks kill MC's where Wyches only stalled them.

Wyches are bad, plain and simple, are they the worst Troop? I dont know but they are darn close to it.

As a long time DE player, i hate Wyches so much atm for 3 Reason.

1) They lost the 2nd melee weapon per 5
2) Their HQ doesnt buff them at all
3) The Elite version can no longer take all special weapons like Trueborns can.

When it comes to DE honestly Trueborns are just 100% better than all 3 troops, 2 attack base, 4 speical weapons, 2 heavy weapons and the sargent can have many options. You can tailor them for AI, AT, short range, long range and even the sarget can have 3 poison -2ap attacks.

Edit: IMO to fix Wyches they only need 2 things; 2 weapons per 5 (and the sarget so a total of 3 per 5 and 4 per 10), 1pt cheaper and Bloodbrides needs to be able to have 5 weapons again.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


The thing with the wych vs warrior comparison that you're bound to make is that it's a lot easier to see the impact of a warrior unit. they basically get double the firepower of an equivalent unit of wyches - rapid fire 1 instead of pistol 1, and 2 blast shots instead of 1. what they lose is 1 attack, No Escape and Dodge, which its harder to see the impact of in game. Couple that with assault being much more technical in 8th than shooting, where the difference between positioning your models perfectly to box off a tank instead of just charging without thinking about it is a very big deal, and the conclusion of "wyches and wracks suck, warriors are the only choice that's good" is an easy one to make.

But do Wracks really not look good? I think they do -- cheap, T5 (with the Haemy, and why not have one if you're bringing Wracks?) objective holders/tarpitters. I think they're underrated (Covens stuff in general seems strong, with the exception of the pain engines, and even the Talos isn't bad)

Wyches have a role and that role is not always in every game, a Warrior can out shine a Wych easily due to 24" range shooting and still some melee, Wyches melee is equal to their points.... cheap.

But there are 2 problems (one we already said, Lack of damage) and the other problem is that their role.... a melee unit to tie up more important units aka No Escape/4++ is almost all but worthless in 8th for DE.

We have Wracks, Incubi, Claw Fiends etc... that can and will kill 2x if not 3x the amount that a wych can do, also b.c DE has a HUGE amount of D6 and 2D shooting, you dont need to tie up units like Terminators, a Ravager with Dis Cannons (9 S5 AP-3 2D shots) for 185pts can kill a 200pt+ termi unit from 36".

Wracks on the other hand has same amount of attacks, a better agoniser, T4 or T5, no pistols but can take flamers or Ossefactors (for mortal Wounds) i've had Wracks kill MC's where Wyches only stalled them.

Wyches are bad, plain and simple, are they the worst Troop? I dont know but they are darn close to it.

As a long time DE player, i hate Wyches so much atm for 3 Reason.

1) They lost the 2nd melee weapon per 5
2) Their HQ doesnt buff them at all
3) The Elite version can no longer take all special weapons like Trueborns can.

When it comes to DE honestly Trueborns are just 100% better than all 3 troops, 2 attack base, 4 speical weapons, 2 heavy weapons and the sargent can have many options. You can tailor them for AI, AT, short range, long range and even the sarget can have 3 poison -2ap attacks.

Edit: IMO to fix Wyches they only need 2 things; 2 weapons per 5 (and the sarget so a total of 3 per 5 and 4 per 10), 1pt cheaper and Bloodbrides needs to be able to have 5 weapons again.

To be a really good, bread-and-butter troop you can use as the core of an army, yeah, they need a boost. But, unlike other really bad troop units that you shouldn't ever see on the table (think Storm Guardians, Intercessors, GSC Acolytes, IG Infantry Squads, Hormagants, Kataphron Breachers) there is a reason to take them over the alternatives - it's just that the benefit they provide is too niche for them to be a good basic troop. Rather than giving them No Escape, I'd rather have seen them give them something to differentiate them from the beefier, blunt force wracks - maybe make them REALLY fast, like base move 10", or give them A3 to make them an anti-horde blender unit, or give them some kind of "disarm" ability to double down on their "neuter and tie up elites" role. Base point reduction and more special weapons will help, but I don't think it'll ultimately solve the problem that they have which is being a niche elite unit in the troop role.

If you finagle exactly one wych model into a conscript blob, you've got No Escape. And there are likely only 1-2 really good targets on the board you want to use No Escape against. But, on the other hand, that ability is likely to bring you some benefit.

Wracks are mathematically superior to wyches in combat (except in edge cases with certain combat drugs) and more durable on average. That's why it makes sense to run the remaining 5 slots in the raider as Wracks instead of additional wyches in most cases, which also gets you the two better special weapons. But even if you're playing for an optimized list, there is a reason to include a min-sized wych squad or two if you think you're likely to face certain opposing lists. That's not something you can say for any of the other units I've listed for the most part, so they're disqualified from being the worst troop.

H-gants, well i play Nids too and i would take H gants over Wyches, they are cheaper faster and same attacks, they also pile in 6" so they can consume another unit much easier, also given the Swarmload and other powers you can get a turn 1 charge with them if your lucky, you can also DS them with a Trygon.

There better options for H-gants over Wyches.

Also No-escape is neat and all, but conscripts is the worst idea for them mass hits is what kills Wyches in melee, Wyches are better to fight something with low high power good ap attacks or low attacks and high shooting, examples: Tau suits/Ghosts, terminators, Dakka Fex's etc... Things that dont hit wyches a lot, sadly many of those units are not Infantry but many are, like Noise Marines or Devastators, Attack bikes etc...

Edit: Succubus are actually good, their ability tho compare to many others is lack luster, yes re-rolls of 1 is fine, Honestly Drazhar and Archon are TERRIBLE abilities. I take Succubus over both of them every game, I normally run 1 succubus and 1 Haemonculus, but the Succubus ability normally never see's play, even with her 5man escort unit, i normally only get 1 or 2 re-rolls at best.

Edit 2: Compare her to a Troupe Master or a Canoness and you'll see what i mean. Troupe Master: Re-roll all fail wounds, Canoness: re-roll all hits of 1. Everything about the Troupe Master is better.

What's wrong with IG infantry squads? They're a nice dependable unit that you can use as the foundation for an army. They hold objectives reasonably well, can hide an expensive heavy weapon behind a bunch of 4-point wounds, fit neatly in transports alongside their officer, and provide a decent number of BS4+ lasguns to use FRFSRF on and their leadership is just high enough relative to their squad size that a commissar isn't quite mandatory (though still very nice to have). They're a solid, reasonably flexible workhorse unit.

They're also the cheapeslt way to fill a troops slot, due to conscripts having a min squad size of 20.

Sure, losing the ability to form 50 man blobs was painful and the sergeant's inability to take a lasgun is annoying, but I wouldn't call them bad.

I would call a unit a "bad unit" if in-faction, there was no reason to take them at all.

Hormagants: Give me a reason to take them over genestealers or termagants

Infantry squad: Give me a reason to take them over Scions or Conscripts

Kataphron Breachers: Why take them over Destroyers (which also suck, but have more reason to exist)

If you're looking for who's the worst, you've got to be looking at who's going to see the least play, and that's basically going to be a call between the handful of units who offer absolutely no reason to take them over the in-faction alternatives.

From there, you can say "but why would I take space marines when I could take guardsmen and be in-faction imperium" but you have to keep in mind you already lose obsec for everybody if you do that, and you lose subfaction benefits for any faction that has them.

In my eyes, if there is a reason to put a unit on the board, then it cannot be the worst troop if there are alternatives for whom there is no reason to field them at all.

Worst of the worst of the worst I'd argue Kataphron Breachers. Just a pitiful unit right now, and they add insult to injury in that they're not even good at filling a slot because they cost so damn much.