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Dionysodorus wrote:

This simply doesn't read like an honest argument. You don't mention that Wyches actually get 2 attacks each. You don't mention that they have much better weapon options than Orks, being able to take 2 decent and cheap CC weapons in a squad of 5. You talk up Marine grenades and don't mention that Wyches actually have much better anti-infantry grenades. You don't discuss their synergy with transports (while making a big deal about their vulnerability to Overwatch).

Have you ever tried wyches in 8th edition or in the prevoius one?

Hydra gauntlets are way too expensive for what they do (tipycally 1 more wound). In CC wyches are terrible, their best tool is the blast pistol. Even with the succubus buff and the combat drug they're still a few bodies with a few low strenght attack, the majority of them, if not all of them, with no AP. The succubus herself got nerfed.

5 wyches costs 45 points with no upgrades. The typical unit is 5 of them including the heaktirx with agoniser and blast pistol in a venom with 2 splinter cannons. We're talking about 154 points for a T5 vehicle (necessary since drukhari have only poisoned shots and lances basically) and 5 T3 wounds with 11 attacks at S3/4 in total. 5 tac marines in a razorback with twin assault cannon are 165 points and they're 10000 better. Not to mention that drukhari lists end up with several drops and typically go second, it can be a big deal since the entire army is very squishy.

Tyel wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
This simply doesn't read like an honest argument. You don't mention that Wyches actually get 2 attacks each. You don't mention that they have much better weapon options than Orks, being able to take 2 decent and cheap CC weapons in a squad of 5. You talk up Marine grenades and don't mention that Wyches actually have much better anti-infantry grenades. You don't discuss their synergy with transports (while making a big deal about their vulnerability to Overwatch). You don't mention that Genestealers actually cost 12 points. You would be more persuasive if you didn't seem to be trying to trick people into believing you.

Not really seeing why its a trick. Is the maths wrong?

If you take the 5 man squad, one agoniser, one hydra gauntlet, take the +1 attack drug and a venom to avoid shooting at you get across the table, send the Venom in to avoid overwatch and then charge in turn 3 for the 2+ WS buff then yes, you can kill about 3 marines with combined shooting and assault.

This still doesn't seem like a major feat however for a unit which would have been wiped at any point it was outside the Venom if it targeted by 16 boltgun shots.

It might be worth it against an MSU tactical squad. Target anything larger though and you are likely to get bogged down beaten down. Lose the venom and have to eat the overwatch? More wyches are dead, even without a flamer.

Everything is in moderation though. If they were 5 points they probably would be worth spamming. I think comparing their melee attack to guardsmen is also a bit dubious.

And if you take multiple squads you can't get the +1 attack or strength ability on every unit.

I mean, in the in the post you're replying to I give a couple examples of how that post was extremely misleading. The poster was pretending that Wyches don't basically get 2 attacks base because of their weapons, and then 3 if they have the right drugs. The poster's been pretending that you're bringing squads of naked Wyches, comparing these to Boyz and Genestealers, when obviously their impact is mostly due to the Agonizer and Hydra Gauntlets. The poster was ignoring that their grenades account for a significant share of their shooting output. He didn't mention how you can use Venoms to avoid Overwatch and was talking as if Genestealers cost only 10 points all-in.

I'm not sure that the limited availability of combat drugs is a big deal. Are you really taking that many squads with access to them and which all want +1S and +1A? But, yeah, it means you're not going to want to put together a brigade based on 6 Wyches squads with no other combat drug units.

And I think you're under-selling the Venom a bit and over-stating the unit's reliance on it not getting shot down. You have other options for getting them into combat even without that particular Venom. The Venom itself is not a bad use of 80 points. And Wyches are cheap enough that shooting at their Venom is not something that your opponent is going to be very happy to do -- obviously your Blasterborn or your Ravagers or whatever are going to be much higher priorities.

But I think we basically agree. Like I've said, Wyches at 9 points are too expensive. I've said that I think 7 would be a pretty competitive price for them. 5 just seems way too low; they're not good currently but they're not that bad.

 wuestenfux wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
How much do they cost? Marines are paying 13 pts to do nothing.

No. Now bolters can damage any unit out there.

You've still only got 6 turns. 3 turns, really, to do most of your work. I stand by my position.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vilehydra wrote:
I've been having decent success with Tac Marines. Always been a Salamander player and their new CT makes MSU Tac marines pretty effective. 90 points for an extremely efficient Lascannon (reroll to hit and wound with the CT) and 4 ablative wounds with light anti-horde capabilities.

Plop them in cover and the enemy force will need to dedicate a non-trivial level of fire power against them. Dedicated assault units are still a concern.

Counter balance them with some heavier presences on the board, and they are going to output a significant level of damage throughout the game.

No, they're not. At least, not for what you paid. You aren't forcing the enemy to do anything. As I described above, tac marines can easily be ignored until the mop-up phase of the match.

The worst Troop in the game right now are actually Eldar Windriders. They've been my core Troop since I started playing Eldar in 4th edition.
Windriders are so bad as Troops in 8th that they aren't even Troops, they've been moved to Fast Attack. So I cannot build a Saim-Hann Battalion at all.

Sure I can use an Outrider detachment, but that is -2CP. I can't wait until the Eldar codex fixes this horrible issue. Overall I'm fine with the rules and points cost of Windriders, but being denied the ideal Battle-forged detachment without resorting to purchasing more models is too far.

-

My assault marines are playing the world's smallest violin for your cheesebikes.

 Galef wrote:
The worst Troop in the game right now are actually Eldar Windriders. They've been my core Troop since I started playing Eldar in 4th edition.
Windriders are so bad as Troops in 8th that they aren't even Troops, they've been moved to Fast Attack. So I cannot build a Saim-Hann Battalion at all.

Sure I can use an Outrider detachment, but that is -2CP. I can't wait until the Eldar codex fixes this horrible issue. Overall I'm fine with the rules and points cost of Windriders, but being denied the ideal Battle-forged detachment without resorting to purchasing more models is too far.

-

You know, this just strikes me as petulant. All other troops choices and discussion aside...

... your army is perfectly viable and fluffy in the new edition, with all the bells and whistles (seriously, Saim Hann ain't struggling locally) and you're worried about 2 CP? And you think that's a horrible issue? Just trying to get your position clear.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Die to Overwatch? 20 Bolters on Overwatch is 1.8 Wyches dead. That's nohting!

Should be absorbing overwatch with their raider anyways.

You guyz are diliberately forgetting the No escape rule that witches possess and that probably costs 2-3 points a piece on it's own. It's amazing when the stars are right. They do have a niche which is the main thing that differentiates them from things like dire avengers and grots. And arguably tactical marines - but tactical marines at least have passable statlines.

 Galef wrote:
The worst Troop in the game right now are actually Eldar Windriders. They've been my core Troop since I started playing Eldar in 4th edition.
Windriders are so bad as Troops in 8th that they aren't even Troops, they've been moved to Fast Attack. So I cannot build a Saim-Hann Battalion at all.

Sure I can use an Outrider detachment, but that is -2CP. I can't wait until the Eldar codex fixes this horrible issue. Overall I'm fine with the rules and points cost of Windriders, but being denied the ideal Battle-forged detachment without resorting to purchasing more models is too far.

-

You mean like space marine bike players, or raven wing players or Deathwing Players? The loss of command points for needing to use detachments that aren't optimal for CP is part of the balance of playing a specialized army. I see no reason why this should be "fixed".

Statlines that are mostly waste.

DE Drazhar, he is 140pts for a melee character with a worthless aura, S4 and 4 attacks.

A unit of Incubi (they are the same model basically and has same weapon, just Incubi are 1 less Str)

Inubi are 90pts for 16 attacks and same amount of wounds, for 140pts thats 8 of them making that 25 attacks.......

For a character he literally is dbl the cost of what his rules are, and why is his aura bad? it gives him and Inubi +1 to hit, sadly they already get +1 to hit due to PFP (Drazhar is alrady 2+ to hit) and sense you cant go lower than 2+ unless there are other mods (and not likely honestly for melee for them) they dont get his aura

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Lasblaster wielding corsair reavers.

18 points per model with a guardsman's defense and an assault 3 lasgun.

At least their other weapon options bring them down to 11 points, but it's things like that that make me glad we use power level around here.

You dont take them like that, take them with Shardcarbines or shuriken catapults for 0pts

Martel732 wrote:
Statlines that are mostly waste.

You know, there's a sm player here who is also very negative about tactical marines. And he was very butthurt annoyed when i said that tactical marines win out point-for-point vs ork boyz pretty much every time if there are no other factors like characters, vehicles.
So, we've played a couple games of 5 marines vs 12 ork boyz with a nob (tried both shootas and sluggas) and all 3 times there were no chances for the boyz. The tactics were pretty simple - marines keep distance for a couple turns and kill 1-3 boyz a turn. Boyz have to move forward - even if they're shootas - cause shootas in cover are much worse at shooting point-for-point than marines in 2+ cover. Than after a couple turns marines engage in close firefight within 12'. By that time there are 4-7 orks left and they start taking morale casualties. By the time orks reach marines - if they do at all - there are not enough orks to wipe the remaining marines before those kill boyz in mellee.
So, why is that marines that are considered to be a sub-par unit win out vs a very good infantry unit every time when taken in a vacuum? Cause they get to use their superior abilities and there are no other factors. In real games you generally can't afford to 'kite' like this. You got to kill more or be more resilient to score a point longer. However, i still think that marines can earn 3 out of 5 for what they do and what they're pretty much supposed to do - score points, provide some bolter potshots, bauble wrap and most importantly provide CP. Killing something with tactical marines is just an afterthought - just like with ork big/mek gunz. You aren't paying for the killing.

In that scenario, more aspects of the marines matter. But against many, many weapon systems marines give up points very quickly. Too quickly. If you paying tac marine prices and not killing, you are falling behind. That's the problem.

You're paying too much for those cps. That's my issue.

" if there are no other factors like characters, vehicles."

I think this is how they are priced. But reality bites them in the ass every time.

Considering you dismissed razorbacks, storm ravens, and guilliman as not being strong enough for your taste, I think a more likely explanation is your expectations are too high.

 ross-128 wrote:
Considering you dismissed razorbacks, storm ravens, and guilliman as not being strong enough for your taste, I think a more likely explanation is your expectations are too high.

I don't think razors and ravens are overpowered after the faq. That's different than dismissing them. I don't think those units are strong enough to compensate for marines having to buy inefficient statlines over and over repeated through the army. Rowboat is a crutch for one chapter only, and even that scheme is easier to work around that horde lists, imo.

 ross-128 wrote:
Considering you dismissed razorbacks, storm ravens, and guilliman as not being strong enough for your taste, I think a more likely explanation is your expectations are too high

Yeah, Martel doesn't want balance, he wants marines to be overpowered to compensate for something.

Protip: you don't have to pay for good stats, if you don't have any good stats.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I'm guessing we'll get flooded by people complaining about the Dire Avengers and their overcosted Catapults. Then someone will compare their basic troopers as even worse than that.

At about 4-5 pages in we'll devolve into snide comments at each other.

You called it MechaEmperor.

Cheers,

CB

PS: ...although Dire Avengers are quite high in the points cost and only see the field in Force Point games.

Except marine stats aren't good in practice, only on paper.

There's a sizable number of people who have disagreed with you on that, as in practice they have made tacs work for them.

Are we talking about the people who say they make tacs work by using them to "open up razorbacks" because those people don't seem to understand that a predator also opens up a razorback slot - this is where about 50% of tac support comes from. The rest seems to come from super casual players who take 10 man tac squads in rhinos with 3 weapons choices and a power fist and plasma pistol on the Sargent (these people don't really care about winning so much).

I'm not super convinced that razorbacks are even that good. I've defeated several razor spam lists already by locking them down with assault. Marines can't screen like the IG, and don't fly like the Eldar. Why are razors so good? The can get a Rowboat buff? *Gimmick Alert*. Your twin assault cannons can't kill enough marines fast enough in my experience.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not super convinced that razorbacks are even that good. I've defeated several razor spam lists already by locking them down with assault. Marines can't screen like the IG, and don't fly like the Eldar. Why are razors so good? The can get a Rowboat buff? *Gimmick Alert*. Your twin assault cannons can't kill enough marines fast enough in my experience.

Assault cannons are bad because they don't kill Marines fast enough.

Marines are bad because they die to quickly.

???

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not super convinced that razorbacks are even that good. I've defeated several razor spam lists already by locking them down with assault. Marines can't screen like the IG, and don't fly like the Eldar. Why are razors so good? The can get a Rowboat buff? *Gimmick Alert*. Your twin assault cannons can't kill enough marines fast enough in my experience.

It's been my experience that Razorbacks are what people shoe-horn into lists because they're the cheapest marine answer to MSU. For 100 points you can get 12 shots that wound a lot of MSU on 2s, and definitely 3s. The -1 AP also negates the save of conscripts, boyz.

Although, i've noticed that the lists which can run razorbacks would probably be better off just running Fire Raptors. The volume of fire those put out for their price is ridiculous. Granted you have to pay the FW tax, but it's tournament legal.

Razorbacks serve as a compliment to dreadnoughts, generally those would look good in a dark angels list.

1. Layer of conscripts
2. Razors
3. Dreadnoughts
4. Dark Shroud
5. Azrael

Razors work well in this list. But they're not the cure-all people advertise them to be.

They're not bad. But I can actually overrun razorbacks with marines. I CAN'T overrun IG artillery with marines. See the difference? Also remember that razorbacks are frequently moving FORWARD to objectives, which increases their susceptibility to assault and shorter range weapons like multimeltas.

Quit trying to make this a simple problem. It's a very COMPLEX problem. Basal marines are bad because of complex interactions in the game.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not super convinced that razorbacks are even that good. I've defeated several razor spam lists already by locking them down with assault. Marines can't screen like the IG, and don't fly like the Eldar. Why are razors so good? The can get a Rowboat buff? *Gimmick Alert*. Your twin assault cannons can't kill enough marines fast enough in my experience.

Marines can screen very well with scouts. 55 Points for an infiltrating screen that pushes deepstrike units up to 27" away from anything you care about, really nerfs useful first turn assaults. Now those scouts die relatively quickly to assault etc. But then whatever assaults them is in range of all your RB shooting. As for not killing marines fast enough. With Rowboat, they average killing 4.5 marines each, unless they move to shoot. at which point they kill 4.

*Gimmick alert*

I want marines to be viable without gimmicks. Rowboat is a gimmick. He's another gladius, invis censtar, or skyhammer. Not available to all marines.

Razorbacks are effective firepower and relatively tough for their points - but they have a huge weakeness that gets exploited every time I play with them. I've basically stopped using them.

Their biggest issue is that they are -1 to hit when they move. The second issue is that if they get assaulted they can't shot. (this is a pretty huge weakness) Effectively they don't want to move - or be assaulted - but their primary weapon is 24" range. This weapon range problem exposes them to their weaknesses every game.

Which is why BA can run over them pretty effectively. They put themselves in jump melta range. Or the move out of their screening position. Marines can screen with scouts, but it's a far flimsier screen than other lists.

Martel732 wrote:
*Gimmick alert*

I want marines to be viable without gimmicks. Rowboat is a gimmick. He's another gladius, invis censtar, or skyhammer. Not available to all marines.

Chapter master + Lieutenant is available to all marines and basically replicates the same buff. If you don't want to do that then what you are saying is "I want marines to function differently then every other army that can only compete by using their strongest combos of units." I'd love to have lots of different lists be viable, but right now almost every faction has a limited set of viable builds. Marines are far from the worst.

Also at this point because imperium is an army, if you make every part of it have powerful options you break imperium (more than it already is) which is a problem with the faction rules in 8th.