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Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Yes, its very hard to comprehend when these accusations come out, mostly because if you do some digging a lot of famous men have certain allegations against them. Its just lack of awareness. Another big one for example is Jared Leto, there has been all kinds of smoke around him. But his popularity did really well around Suicide Squad and it was hard for many people to imagine he might have done some bad things, it still is. But when there is so much smoke.. I get the Louis CK part, he seems like a decent guy, has some funny material. I hadn't heard, but it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if it eventually turns out true, most allegations aren't made just because. It can be almost anyone.


Huh, I hadn't heard anything about Jared Leto. I'm not really inclined to believe or disbelieve that, and maybe his really awful performance as the Joker influences me in regards to that. That's a pretty horrible thing to think.

What usually gets brought up against celebrities and people in power is that the accusers due it for money or attention. Of course this ties in with the beliefs (on other parts of the internet) of a decent chunk of younger men and women, who are more active online, that women make false rape accusations to slander men. Even though the percentage of false reports is under 2%. Acknowledgement of the widespread nature of sexual assault is really lacking in good parts of society, sometimes just out of ignorance and in other cases vindictiveness.


Yeah, I think that is the first big step that we as a society have to make - believe the victim.

That gets tricky because we need to be careful about the rights of the accused, especially if the accusation is just a whisper campaign, like what there currently is about Louis CK and apparently also Jared Leto. But when there is an actual, formal accusation we should believe just as we'd believe any other person who goes to the police and says they are the victim of a crime.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in nl
Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc





 sebster wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Yes, its very hard to comprehend when these accusations come out, mostly because if you do some digging a lot of famous men have certain allegations against them. Its just lack of awareness. Another big one for example is Jared Leto, there has been all kinds of smoke around him. But his popularity did really well around Suicide Squad and it was hard for many people to imagine he might have done some bad things, it still is. But when there is so much smoke.. I get the Louis CK part, he seems like a decent guy, has some funny material. I hadn't heard, but it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if it eventually turns out true, most allegations aren't made just because. It can be almost anyone.


Huh, I hadn't heard anything about Jared Leto. I'm not really inclined to believe or disbelieve that, and maybe his really awful performance as the Joker influences me in regards to that. That's a pretty horrible thing to think.

Yes things like that are troublesome to deal with. You don't want to jump the gun, but you also don't want to be too closed off to the possibility its true. Eventually the truth will come out either way. Its one of those things you hear about, unsure of what to do with.

 sebster wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
What usually gets brought up against celebrities and people in power is that the accusers due it for money or attention. Of course this ties in with the beliefs (on other parts of the internet) of a decent chunk of younger men and women, who are more active online, that women make false rape accusations to slander men. Even though the percentage of false reports is under 2%. Acknowledgement of the widespread nature of sexual assault is really lacking in good parts of society, sometimes just out of ignorance and in other cases vindictiveness.


Yeah, I think that is the first big step that we as a society have to make - believe the victim.

That gets tricky because we need to be careful about the rights of the accused, especially if the accusation is just a whisper campaign, like what there currently is about Louis CK and apparently also Jared Leto. But when there is an actual, formal accusation we should believe just as we'd believe any other person who goes to the police and says they are the victim of a crime.

Yes, although I'm not counting on the Weinstein case to provide the first step, hopefully I will be surprised.

Sadly most sexual assaults and rape go unreported, around 80% I believe. Most of the times these whisper campaigns are all that occur. Until as you mentioned whatever it is that protects the perpetrator is lost. Although by then evidence becomes an issue. Its a hard issue to tackle, society needs to go through the change of believing the victim first as you say (plus police resources are often lacking). Then victims might come forward faster and cases might still be made.

Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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@sebster: I don't even know if "believe" is the right word here because it seems to assume a default of guilt, which sort of runs counter to the system (the legal system, not the big boys system, though that is the problem). I can't think of a word that would be better. "Take serously" sounds too legalese and implies that there is a default of non seriousness. "Consider" doesn't sound serious enough. "Ponder" seems either distracted or British (not that there's anything wrong with that). Maybe "evaluate"? The best word would be "criticize" but it carries too much of a negative connotation in daily parlance.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/10/18 05:18:12


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 Gordon Shumway wrote:
@sebster: I don't even know if "believe" is the right word here because it seems to assume a default of guilt, which sort of runs counter to the system (the legal system, not the big boys system, though that is the problem). I can't think of a word that would be better. "Take serously" sounds too legalese and implies that there is a default of non seriousness. "Consider" doesn't sound serious enough. "Ponder" seems either distracted or British (not that there's anything wrong with that). Maybe "evaluate"? The best word would be "criticize" but it carries too much of a negative connotation in daily parlance.


I think just treating it like other crime is sufficient. When someone reports a robbery, police don't assume it is reasonably likely to be a false accusation made out of spite. But that assumption is shockingly common with rape.

I get what you're saying that we can't just assume guilt based on an accusation, and courts still need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. But there should be a middle ground where we can manage to not immediately question the woman's motives and question all her life choices, but also make sure the accused receives a fair day in court.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/18 05:34:08


“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
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Dakka Veteran






 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Even though the percentage of false reports is under 2%. Acknowledgement of the widespread nature of sexual assault is really lacking in good parts of society, sometimes just out of ignorance and in other cases vindictiveness.


If I remember correctly that 2% figure (or rather 2% to 10% according to Wikipedia) is cases where the accusation got proven false in court or in investigation, which I would think is a rather rare scenario. Most false accusation are probably dropped before things get that far.
   
Made in au
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 ulgurstasta wrote:
If I remember correctly that 2% figure (or rather 2% to 10% according to Wikipedia) is cases where the accusation got proven false in court or in investigation, which I would think is a rather rare scenario. Most false accusation are probably dropped before things get that far.


I agree that the info on this is inconsistent and subjective, and some of the 2% studies are limited to cases that went to court and were proven false. But other studies have produced figures at 2% or lower with different methods that don't have that attrition problem.

And on the the other side there are issues with a lot of the studies showing higher rates, for instance many used police case tags saying things like 'no crime' or things like that. But those studies are problematic because many cases are reported as 'no crime' or something similar when the case was withdrawn or it was deemed there was insufficient evidence to proceed, which does not in any way indicate a fraudulent claim. However, like the above, there are studies that don't have that problem and still result rates at 8% or thereabouts, so we can't discount the higher rates entirely.

Like pretty much everything with this issue, the actual rates of false claims is a hopeless, subjective mess.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/18 09:39:35


“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
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Yes, that's one of the problems with rape, both real and falsely accused. If enough time passes (and it isn't that much time, either) and there's no recording, it's almost impossible to prove one way or the other.
   
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 sebster wrote:
 ulgurstasta wrote:
If I remember correctly that 2% figure (or rather 2% to 10% according to Wikipedia) is cases where the accusation got proven false in court or in investigation, which I would think is a rather rare scenario. Most false accusation are probably dropped before things get that far.


I agree that the info on this is inconsistent and subjective, and some of the 2% studies are limited to cases that went to court and were proven false. But other studies have produced figures at 2% or lower with different methods that don't have that attrition problem.

And on the the other side there are issues with a lot of the studies showing higher rates, for instance many used police case tags saying things like 'no crime' or things like that. But those studies are problematic because many cases are reported as 'no crime' or something similar when the case was withdrawn or it was deemed there was insufficient evidence to proceed, which does not in any way indicate a fraudulent claim. However, like the above, there are studies that don't have that problem and still result rates at 8% or thereabouts, so we can't discount the higher rates entirely.

Like pretty much everything with this issue, the actual rates of false claims is a hopeless, subjective mess.

Nevertheless, the idea that false accusations are a widespread problem like some corners of the internet would have people believe is wrong. Which is what I was more or less addressing cause I have seen it floating around outside Dakka once again. Even if we take the highest percentage of 10% (which is very high) into account, that is still over a minority of sexual assault that gets reported. In a perfect world in which every case would be reported, even a 10% number would be driven down significantly.

The true percentage is less important than the idea that it is a much more widespread 'problem'. Its attitudes like that compound to the stigma that many already feel to be associated with sexual assault.

Maybe I shouldn't have gone down this side track

More on topic, women keep coming forward: "Weinstein scandal: Game of Thrones actress 'felt powerless'"
http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-41650350

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/10/18 13:13:23


Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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 Gordon Shumway wrote:
I get sued for harressassment on the internet, yeah, that will fly. Even Weinstein couldn't make that stick. But it might have caused a hashtag #'movement to avoid him. Maybe? I'm not really sure what the point of hashtags are.


#whatarehashtagsforanyway?


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 sebster wrote:
Prestor Jon wrote:
I would call the police 100% of the time, no debate no question. The only sure way to stop a rapist/sexual predator from victimizing people is to remove that person from society, so that leaves incarceration or death as the two surest ways of stopping the predator.


So your opinion is that if the victim doesn't want to pursue that course of action, you don't care and will override her and betray what she told you in confidence?

If I was Brad Pitt would I have gone after Harvey Weinstein for some vigilante justice? Maybe, but if I didn't run off to Harvey's house in a murderous rage I would have called the police, not Harvey. Yelling at somebody over the phone? What's the point in that? Harsh language is better than doing absolutely nothing I guess but it certainly won't stop sexual assault from happening.

What did Brad Pitt accomplish? He contributed to getting Weinstein to not rape Gwyneth Paltrow. Gwyneth's willingness to tell somebody about the incident probably also played a factor in Weinstein deciding to leave Paltrow alone and still give her good roles. Pitt helped protect his girlfriend from Weinstein but he did nothing to protect anyone else's girlfriend from Harvey Weinstein so Weinstein kept on harassing and assaulting other people's girlfriends for decades.


I didn't ask about vigilante justice, not sure why you went there. Nor did Pitt's action stop any rape - he was told after the event.

As to what Pitt's actions achieved, they achieved nothing. The guy was in an impossible place, a predator had attempted to manipulate his girlfriend in to sex, so he wanted to protect her, but he also had to respect her wishes. "Achieving something" is a really flawed way of assessing the outcome of his actions.

Do we seriously want to stop sexual assault from happening or not?


Yes, but we also seriously need to let adult women make their own decisions. Finding the balance isn't easy in lots of places, but in this case it shouldn't be too hard.

Because what the Pitt/Paltrow example shows us is that we don't tolerate sexual assault when it happens to people we care about but we're ok with letting it happen to other people because actually fighting sexual predators is hard work and not worthwhile.


What it shows us is that when women come forward with these stories we should believe them, and not judge them or dismiss them. Do that, and most of the problems with women not wanting to report these things will disappear.

But if instead we decide that part of the solution involves making the decision to press charges, ie make a formal, public accusation, well then I think we're probably just reinforcing the culture that's produced a lot of this problem.


So we want to stop sexual assault but it's fine if Harvey Weinstein keeps assaulting women as long as those women don't choose to go to the police and file a complaint against him? So if Weinstein can get his victims to stay quiet, be it through trauma, intimidation, bribery, extortion or just the unappealing facets of rape trials we as a society should just accept it, grant it our tacit approval and let it go? The objective action of coercing someone else into sexual acts is only a problem worth societal intervention if the victim wants to come forward? Forcing other people into sexual acts is always wrong, right? It's not something society should accept as tolerable just because the victim doesn't want to press charges, right? Everyone has an obligation to fight back against sexual predation, right? Or is stopping a sexual predator solely the responsibility of their victims and if those victims don't press charges then the rest of us should accept it and leave it alone. If nobody takes any action then nothing changes and people keep getting hurt because nobody is trying to stop it. That's an objectively bad thing/situation so we should we ever tolerate it?

I don't understand your reasoning that we need to believe women when they come forward but shouldn't require that they come forward and file complaints. We need victims to go to the police, the authorities are the ones with the power to intervene, prosecute the accused and lock up convicted rapists/predators to prevent them from continuing to prey on society. If we want to apprehend and punish people who commit crimes then we have to involve the police.

That's how Weinstein was able to abuse so many women for decades, because people stayed quiet, never went to the authorities, they just looked the other way and shrugged it off.

I am not insensitive to the feelings and rights of victims but we can't just decide that criminal acts are only crimes when the victim consents to pressing charges.

Is spousal abuse ok as long as the abused doesn't file charges? If your wife doesn't want to go through the publicity and hassle of a trial that would tear the family apart, inflict financial hardship and be embarrassing then it's ok to beat the gak out of her because she's an adult and if she doesn't want to go to the police it's nobody else's place to get involved. If she confides in a friend then that friend should keep her/his mouth shut and leave it alone because beating the gak out of your spouse isn't a problem as long as the abused spouse isn't willing to press charges.

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Stop putting words in people's mouths.

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Are we pretending that the only binary options are “tell women to shut up” and “report their abuse against their wishes”?
   
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North Carolina

 d-usa wrote:
Are we pretending that the only binary options are “tell women to shut up” and “report their abuse against their wishes”?


No, we're claiming that reporting abuse to the police is a yes/no binary decision and that not reporting abuse to the police isn't an effective way to stop abuse from happening. If we want to stop the abuse the authorities need to get involved and stopping the abuse is a worthwhile goal we all want to achieve, right? We've had compelling arguments regarding circumstances in which reporting abuse can be harmful to the victims but none of those arguments address how we get abusers to stop hurting people without victims reporting them to the authorities.

Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
 
   
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Prestor Jon wrote:
but none of those arguments address how we get abusers to stop hurting people without victims reporting them to the authorities.


None of the alternative arguments have addressed how reporting to the police stops abusers from hurting people when the police can't do anything without a cooperating victim.

So lets not pretend there's some grand high road here where the greater good is being served. There isn't.

   
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Fort Worth, TX

To be honest, I don't know what I would do. And I hope I am never in the position to choose between keeping silent to protect the victim I know, or speaking up to protect the victims-to-be. And I truly hope none of you will have to make that choice, either.

"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me."
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"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks 
   
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Prestor Jon wrote:So we want to stop sexual assault but it's fine if Harvey Weinstein keeps assaulting women as long as those women don't choose to go to the police and file a complaint against him? So if Weinstein can get his victims to stay quiet, be it through trauma, intimidation, bribery, extortion or just the unappealing facets of rape trials we as a society should just accept it, grant it our tacit approval and let it go? The objective action of coercing someone else into sexual acts is only a problem worth societal intervention if the victim wants to come forward? Forcing other people into sexual acts is always wrong, right? It's not something society should accept as tolerable just because the victim doesn't want to press charges, right? Everyone has an obligation to fight back against sexual predation, right? Or is stopping a sexual predator solely the responsibility of their victims and if those victims don't press charges then the rest of us should accept it and leave it alone. If nobody takes any action then nothing changes and people keep getting hurt because nobody is trying to stop it. That's an objectively bad thing/situation so we should we ever tolerate it?
If you really want to take action then you can do that by changing our culture. That means speaking out when somebody says some sexist bs instead of ignoring it or acting like you didn't hear it. It means saying something when you see friends being creepy and not just brushing it off because they are drunk (or whatever excuse people find). We need to show people that this type of abuse/harassment won't be tolerated because that encourages and enables the creeps who do this. It means sometimes being a killjoy when your friend are too rowdy or being called the PC police. That's something you can do all the time and it doesn't put the victims in a uncomfortable situation but it's also not something that will make everything better over night.

If you only want to act after somebody was already harassed or attacked then you won't change this culture that enables people in power to abuse others and you are putting all the pressure on the victim. You are essentially saying "victims need to do this" (after the fact) instead of finding ways to discourage wannabe rapists. Weinstein only lost his protection because he wasn't useful anymore (he lost the power that protected him). We have to take apart the foundation of our culture that enables that and not just react after it has already happened.

I don't understand your reasoning that we need to believe women when they come forward but shouldn't require that they come forward and file complaints. We need victims to go to the police, the authorities are the ones with the power to intervene, prosecute the accused and lock up convicted rapists/predators to prevent them from continuing to prey on society. If we want to apprehend and punish people who commit crimes then we have to involve the police.

That's how Weinstein was able to abuse so many women for decades, because people stayed quiet, never went to the authorities, they just looked the other way and shrugged it off.

I am not insensitive to the feelings and rights of victims but we can't just decide that criminal acts are only crimes when the victim consents to pressing charges.

Is spousal abuse ok as long as the abused doesn't file charges? If your wife doesn't want to go through the publicity and hassle of a trial that would tear the family apart, inflict financial hardship and be embarrassing then it's ok to beat the gak out of her because she's an adult and if she doesn't want to go to the police it's nobody else's place to get involved. If she confides in a friend then that friend should keep her/his mouth shut and leave it alone because beating the gak out of your spouse isn't a problem as long as the abused spouse isn't willing to press charges.
You are correct that people need to act after the abuse to stop that instance but in all these cases it's our culture that makes it hard for people to go to the police in cases of abuse. They are often not believed, brushed aside, just ignored, or even humiliated (by the police). Women are called sluts and when it's against somebody with the slightest bit of status they are seen as gold-diggers who are betting on a big payday. The same people who say it's done for attentions and hurl abuse at the victims at the same time somehow don't realise that being called a whore and getting threatened is not really the good kind of attention. Then rape victims are also often seen as in some way broken by some parts of the population (in addition to basic behavioural changes from their families and friends around them who start walking of eggshells). Often the assaulter is family, relative, or friend and they might not want to hurt their own families by going to the police (how would grandma react if she knew that a certain uncle is a rapist?).

Here's some short blog posts about why it's not often reported:

https://theestablishment.co/why-demanding-that-rape-victims-report-assault-isnt-helpful-b09785418f0d
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/rape-victims-report-police_us_57ad48c2e4b071840410b8d6
https://www.self.com/story/why-women-dont-report-sexual-assault

It would be simple if going to the police were actually useful but apparently it's often not helpful at all and just leads to more trauma. For more just google why don't rape victims reports assaults and click through a few posts.

And when it comes to domestic violence then the police has a two to four times higher rate of domestic abuse and reporting that can get "tricky":
https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/09/police-officers-who-hit-their-wives-or-girlfriends/380329/
http://womenandpolicing.com/violencefs.asp
http://msmagazine.com/blog/2015/10/26/police-wife-the-secret-epidemic-of-police-domestic-violence/
   
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 Tannhauser42 wrote:
To be honest, I don't know what I would do. And I hope I am never in the position to choose between keeping silent to protect the victim I know, or speaking up to protect the victims-to-be. And I truly hope none of you will have to make that choice, either.


It gets really bad with child abuse. Many parents want to hush things up and not pursue the matter which has allowed the abusers to continue victimizing children. I'm all for throwing a spotlight on these people and hauling them into court.
   
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I think there's a very clear demarcation line between adult victims and minor victims and how we regard them. No one has anywhere advocated keeping silent about the abuse of children, and unlike adults children aren't expected to make any sort of decision on that matter themselves.

   
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Fort Worth, TX

And if anybody needed confirmation of the fact, it's not just Hollywood.
McKayla Maroney, of the famous "not impressed" meme, has also come forward.

"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me."
- Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks 
   
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Tornado Alley

So that doctor should go in a pit with another predator, thunder dome style. Winner gets jail. Loser dies.

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That doctor isn’t news from last year or so, did people already forget?
   
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This is endemic to every kind of industry or power structure.

   
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 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Nevertheless, the idea that false accusations are a widespread problem like some corners of the internet would have people believe is wrong. Which is what I was more or less addressing cause I have seen it floating around outside Dakka once again. Even if we take the highest percentage of 10% (which is very high) into account, that is still over a minority of sexual assault that gets reported. In a perfect world in which every case would be reported, even a 10% number would be driven down significantly.


That's a really good point. Whatever figure we use for false rape claims, that number is dwarfed by the number of rapes that go unreported.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Prestor Jon wrote:
So we want to stop sexual assault but it's fine if Harvey Weinstein keeps assaulting women as long as those women don't choose to go to the police and file a complaint against him? So if Weinstein can get his victims to stay quiet, be it through trauma, intimidation, bribery, extortion or just the unappealing facets of rape trials we as a society should just accept it, grant it our tacit approval and let it go?


That was never the argument made by anyone. What you just posted is hopelessly dishonest.

I don't understand your reasoning that we need to believe women when they come forward but shouldn't require that they come forward and file complaints. We need victims to go to the police, the authorities are the ones with the power to intervene, prosecute the accused and lock up convicted rapists/predators to prevent them from continuing to prey on society. If we want to apprehend and punish people who commit crimes then we have to involve the police.


If we are more willing to believe women and more supportive when they come forward, more women will choose to come forward if it happens to them. That is the ideal.

But we do not live in that ideal world, and in this world women are shamed and challenged when they tell these stories, and not just in terms of the evidence of their case, but also challenges to their moral character. As such it remains a huge ask for any woman to choose to come forward with her story. No other person, no matter how noble their intentions, can make that choice for that woman.

Is spousal abuse ok as long as the abused doesn't file charges? If your wife doesn't want to go through the publicity and hassle of a trial that would tear the family apart, inflict financial hardship and be embarrassing then it's ok to beat the gak out of her because she's an adult and if she doesn't want to go to the police it's nobody else's place to get involved.


I think you've gotten really confused about what is being discussed. No-one is suggesting that if the woman doesn't want to come forward, then it wasn't a crime and it was okay. Honestly I can't even guess where you got that from.

What is being discussed is that the decision to move forward with a complaint is the decision of the woman alone, because she is the one who will have to face the ugly reality of how we treat and label someone who makes that accusation, even when it is proven in court. The rest of us should support that woman no matter her choice, and do what we can improve how society handles rape accusations, but we don't get to make her decision for her.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 d-usa wrote:
That doctor isn’t news from last year or so, did people already forget?


The doctor's crime is an old story, but I think Maroney's accusation is new.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/19 05:50:50


“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
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Since the news of this case broke, reports keep piling up about coercion and sexual harassment also in other places than Hollywood - maybe the good thing coming from this is really that it gives courage to people everywhere to finally speak up.

German newspapers are now reporting about similar cases in the (much smaller, naturally) German film industry, and I'm pretty sure we'll hear similar things from all around the world, from the UK to Bollywood.

There's an article right now that the Swedish foreign minister suffered sexual harassment during a goddamn state dinner.
http://nation.com.pk/international/19-Oct-2017/sweden-s-top-diplomat-says-suffered-sexual-harassment
It's absolutely disgusting everywhere, but you would've thought people at the highest diplomatic levels would be smart enough not to try that gak at official events.
   
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 sebster wrote:
If we are more willing to believe women and more supportive when they come forward, more women will choose to come forward if it happens to them. That is the ideal.

But we do not live in that ideal world, and in this world women are shamed and challenged when they tell these stories, and not just in terms of the evidence of their case, but also challenges to their moral character. As such it remains a huge ask for any woman to choose to come forward with her story. No other person, no matter how noble their intentions, can make that choice for that woman.


The problem with that is that it goes against the very foundation of our justice system: Innocent until proven guilty.
Having said that, attacking anyone who claims to be a victim because of what he/she says happened is also going way too far.
Best case scenario, I think, is that every reported rape is taken seriously, and if the proof for that particular allegation is not enough to prosecute, the perpetrator gets put under surveillance to have a much better case if/when he repeats.
And, IMO, company cultures need to change as well. As it currently stands in most companies, the HR department or "trustee" or whoever one is supposed to report harassment/assault in the workplace to, work for the company - which means their interests do not coincide with the victim's.
   
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Bran Dawri wrote:
The problem with that is that it goes against the very foundation of our justice system: Innocent until proven guilty.


I think it's possible to take for granted that someone making an accusation isn't lying without automatically assuming that they are telling the truth. We can go through these ordeals as a society without calling the earnestness of claims into question. He says x. She say y. They say z. Just assume everyone is protecting themselves and trying to do what's best for them and let the court system work it out.

Its the only pragmatic way to do things anyway.

Of course I think the bigger issue is that that's all kind of wishful thinking. Give me two conflicting stories and I'm going to draw an opinion on which I think is true. I think the difference is I'm not going to walk onto the set of CNN or Foxnews and make a big deal of out it, talking about how men are pigs, or women or sluts or whatever. I think the issue isn't that people form opinions but that for some baffling reason we make a spectacle out of people expressing really basic opinions. I think Weinstein is guilty, now what the feth is going to compel someone to pay some guest time and attention telling me he agrees/disagrees? it's a really bizarre thing to spend air time on but for some reason networks do it and viewers eat it up. I suspect that the borrowed words from MTV "you watch that gak to feel superior" are very true in these situations.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/19 20:36:58


   
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Bran Dawri wrote:
The problem with that is that it goes against the very foundation of our justice system: Innocent until proven guilty.


It doesn't though. I mean, if I say that some guy mugged me, people will believe I'm not a vindictive liar just looking to hurt the accused, without having to automatically convict the guy I've accused without a fair hearing.

There is a lot of scope for a middle ground, where we believe accusations but accept that legal punishment will only happen if that accusation is sufficiently supported by the evidence.

And, IMO, company cultures need to change as well. As it currently stands in most companies, the HR department or "trustee" or whoever one is supposed to report harassment/assault in the workplace to, work for the company - which means their interests do not coincide with the victim's.


Yeah, this is a very good point.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
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USA

By no irony whatsoever I feel the same way about Campus Police. Campus Cops ime are more interested in covering up dirt than investigating it, and they work for the administration more than anything. Unless you make a big fuss you're unlikely to get any help if you accuse another student of doing something to you. Certainly its a criticism of college and university campuses echoed by a lot of victim support groups catering to sufferers of sexual assault and harassment.

   
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