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 LunarSol wrote:
Flipping the clock doesn't take any time. It takes substantially less time than telling your opponent to do whatever it is they're failing to do.

I can see some problems though.

"I want to see your book." tap while the other player finds it.
Other player finds book. "I'll read it, play on." tap
"I don't want to play while you read, as this affects my decision." tap.
"But I already know the rule, and you questioning me on it shouldn't cost me my time." tap.
"I don't trust your knowledge of the rules." tap.
"JUUUUDGE!"

See how easy that was? A real time shark can even start an argument over whose time should be ticking while a rule is looked up, lol.

Anyone can be TFG in any game. Most people are mature enough to understand how to use a chess clock and when it is appropriate to switch the timer.

Players should never argue like that. If you end up in a rules dispute, you call a judge. Immediately. That's what they're there for and are a fantastic resource that works best the sooner its used. I've always been way happier when players call me over for preventative care than being summoned to deal with an escalated issue.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:Anyone can be TFG in any game. Most people are mature enough to understand how to use a chess clock and when it is appropriate to switch the timer.

That's literally what slowplaying is. Being a TFG. If "chess clocks fix slowplaying TFGs" is the claim, you actually have to show why people can't TFG them.

LunarSol wrote:Players should never argue like that. If you end up in a rules dispute, you call a judge. Immediately. That's what they're there for and are a fantastic resource that works best the sooner its used. I've always been way happier when players call me over for preventative care than being summoned to deal with an escalated issue.

Whose clock does the Judge's Consultation happen on? Or do they extend the round past the time limit to account for judges time? And by how much? Does it change based on how long a judge was at a given table, giving different tables different round ending points? Or could dice down happen while both players have time on their clocks because the judge simply paused the time?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
Flipping the clock doesn't take any time. It takes substantially less time than telling your opponent to do whatever it is they're failing to do.

I can see some problems though.

"I want to see your book." tap while the other player finds it.
Other player finds book. "I'll read it, play on." tap
"I don't want to play while you read, as this affects my decision." tap.
"But I already know the rule, and you questioning me on it shouldn't cost me my time." tap.
"I don't trust your knowledge of the rules." tap.
"JUUUUDGE!"

See how easy that was? A real time shark can even start an argument over whose time should be ticking while a rule is looked up, lol.

Other wargames use chess clocks and deal with this just fine. If there's a rules dispute at any point you call for a judge and pause the timer. No player is penalised for requesting a judge ruling. If somebody keeps using it as a tactic to screw with their opponent's time the judges quickly become aware of it.

I'm seriously starting to wonder if the people opposed to chess clocks stop to think about their objections at all? We know other games use them and we know they work just fine there. Why is it so hard to accept they may at least be worth trying in 40k? It's a very simple thing to roll to hit and to wound, declare number of successes, then switch time to your opponent to roll their dice, then they switch back to you once done. It takes less than a second to switch the clock and becomes second nature extremely quickly.

Slipspace wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
Flipping the clock doesn't take any time. It takes substantially less time than telling your opponent to do whatever it is they're failing to do.

I can see some problems though.

"I want to see your book." tap while the other player finds it.
Other player finds book. "I'll read it, play on." tap
"I don't want to play while you read, as this affects my decision." tap.
"But I already know the rule, and you questioning me on it shouldn't cost me my time." tap.
"I don't trust your knowledge of the rules." tap.
"JUUUUDGE!"

See how easy that was? A real time shark can even start an argument over whose time should be ticking while a rule is looked up, lol.

Other wargames use chess clocks and deal with this just fine. If there's a rules dispute at any point you call for a judge and pause the timer. No player is penalised for requesting a judge ruling. If somebody keeps using it as a tactic to screw with their opponent's time the judges quickly become aware of it.

I'm seriously starting to wonder if the people opposed to chess clocks stop to think about their objections at all? We know other games use them and we know they work just fine there. Why is it so hard to accept they may at least be worth trying in 40k? It's a very simple thing to roll to hit and to wound, declare number of successes, then switch time to your opponent to roll their dice, then they switch back to you once done. It takes less than a second to switch the clock and becomes second nature extremely quickly.

So you're seriously telling me that no one in any other tournament has ever gamed the clock? Ever? Not once?

And if a judge pauses the clock, is that game now allowed to go beyond the total 2.5 hours allotted for playtime, since some of the time was spent standing around talking to a judge?

Rules disputes happen between people who aren't TFG though. The clock is bad in a game where people don't have perfect knowledge of the other persons' data sheets, stratagems, rules, etc.

I suggest that people read how Privateer Press handles their death clock rules. When I first read them I thought that it would be hard to do but it's just like any other facet of the game. You learn how to use it and move on.

http://files.privateerpress.com/op/2017/LnL/Steamroller%20Rules%202017.pdf

Long story short the clock is just like any other part of the game. If it's a rule then people will get used to it.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Anyone can be TFG in any game. Most people are mature enough to understand how to use a chess clock and when it is appropriate to switch the timer.

Most people are mature enough to not slow play. If they're not mature enough to not slow play, they're probably not mature enough to not treat a clock as just another gameable element.

Slipspace wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
Flipping the clock doesn't take any time. It takes substantially less time than telling your opponent to do whatever it is they're failing to do.

I can see some problems though.

"I want to see your book." tap while the other player finds it.
Other player finds book. "I'll read it, play on." tap
"I don't want to play while you read, as this affects my decision." tap.
"But I already know the rule, and you questioning me on it shouldn't cost me my time." tap.
"I don't trust your knowledge of the rules." tap.
"JUUUUDGE!"

See how easy that was? A real time shark can even start an argument over whose time should be ticking while a rule is looked up, lol.

Other wargames use chess clocks and deal with this just fine. If there's a rules dispute at any point you call for a judge and pause the timer. No player is penalised for requesting a judge ruling. If somebody keeps using it as a tactic to screw with their opponent's time the judges quickly become aware of it.

I'm seriously starting to wonder if the people opposed to chess clocks stop to think about their objections at all? We know other games use them and we know they work just fine there. Why is it so hard to accept they may at least be worth trying in 40k? It's a very simple thing to roll to hit and to wound, declare number of successes, then switch time to your opponent to roll their dice, then they switch back to you once done. It takes less than a second to switch the clock and becomes second nature extremely quickly.

They're not very common in other games, and when present, such games are designed around a time component as an inherent part of the rules or experience, and there's little or no back-and-forth in actions and armies tend to be much smaller, none of which is true with 40k.

Can people get slick at it? Sure. Will it work without any issues for most players most of the time? Yes. However, does the current time scheme work for most players most of the time? Also yes. Can chess clocks raise their own issues? Yes. Are lots of people who engage in the 40k hobby less than outstandingly capable people? Yes. Do people routinely mess up simple things all the time? Yes.

Again, a smaller points limit is going to be an easier, simpler, and cleaner solution.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
Flipping the clock doesn't take any time. It takes substantially less time than telling your opponent to do whatever it is they're failing to do.

I can see some problems though.

"I want to see your book." tap while the other player finds it.
Other player finds book. "I'll read it, play on." tap
"I don't want to play while you read, as this affects my decision." tap.
"But I already know the rule, and you questioning me on it shouldn't cost me my time." tap.
"I don't trust your knowledge of the rules." tap.
"JUUUUDGE!"

See how easy that was? A real time shark can even start an argument over whose time should be ticking while a rule is looked up, lol.

Other wargames use chess clocks and deal with this just fine. If there's a rules dispute at any point you call for a judge and pause the timer. No player is penalised for requesting a judge ruling. If somebody keeps using it as a tactic to screw with their opponent's time the judges quickly become aware of it.

I'm seriously starting to wonder if the people opposed to chess clocks stop to think about their objections at all? We know other games use them and we know they work just fine there. Why is it so hard to accept they may at least be worth trying in 40k? It's a very simple thing to roll to hit and to wound, declare number of successes, then switch time to your opponent to roll their dice, then they switch back to you once done. It takes less than a second to switch the clock and becomes second nature extremely quickly.

So you're seriously telling me that no one in any other tournament has ever gamed the clock? Ever? Not once?

And if a judge pauses the clock, is that game now allowed to go beyond the total 2.5 hours allotted for playtime, since some of the time was spent standing around talking to a judge?

Of course people will try to game the clock. I never said they wouldn't so I don't know where you're getting that from. TFGs are TFGs whatever the system. The point is we can put procedures in place to prevent as much of that as possible,

Yes, games can go beyond the allotted time if a judge needs to make a call on something. However, it's a very rare game that requires constant genuine judge intervention so at most you're looking at around 3-5 minutes extra, and that's being generous. If a judge is constantly being called to sort out rules disputes you have a problem with the players. This system allows that problem to be identified and sorted. Minor rules disputes over things like weapon or unit stats or special rules are dealt with the same way they are now: by showing your opponent the relevant rule and getting on with the game. You don't switch the clock for these kind of things unless they start to get egregious.

Again, I really can't stress this enough, chess clocks are used to good effect and with very few issues I'm aware of in Warmachine/Hordes and Kings of War. They manage to deal with rules issues, both minor and major, within this system just fine. A chess clock system doesn't prevent 100% of abuses but if we want 100% efficiency in our solutions we'll never implement any changes at all. I think they'd be an overall good and I don't think any of the issues people have raised her are insurmountable,

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

So you're seriously telling me that no one in any other tournament has ever gamed the clock? Ever? Not once?

And if a judge pauses the clock, is that game now allowed to go beyond the total 2.5 hours allotted for playtime, since some of the time was spent standing around talking to a judge?

Only the judge is allowed to pause the clock. Generally there's a round timer slightly longer than the total time on the clocks. It's in the judge's vested interest to resolve the dispute within that buffer so it really only comes up if players are repeatedly calling the judge.... at which point you have a game which is under pretty close scrutiny and a judge who's going to be quite interested in who might need to be ejected.

Have people gamed the clock? Absolutely. Is it still a better system? It 100% is. Honestly, the biggest advantage is simply that when someone is gaming the clock, their opponent can obviously tell what's happening. Under round timers, when someone games the clock, their opponent doesn't realize it until the judge tells them its too late to do anything about it.

I think the problem is not that it's "a solution that can't fix 100% of the problems but can fix 99% of them".

My objection is "it won't work in a few cases so it won't work at all." It's far more nuanced than that:

Premise 1) TFGs will be TFGs.
2) TFGs will game the system whatever it is.
3) There is no current need for Chess Clocks outside of TFGs slowplaying (that has been identified).
4) Chess clocks are a new system.
5) TFGs will still game them.

So you're not fixing anything. The problem is that slow playing will disappear and be replaced with clock manipulation as the TFG tactic of choice. It's just changing the symptoms and not treating the problems.

Same with lowering the points: slow-playing can happen at 1500.

The best solution is for TO's to step up when painfully obvious slowplaying is happening (like a 60 minute first turn with Tony's list) and actually tell TFGs to GTFO or shape up.

The issue is not with rules, but rather with enforcement. Adding more or different rules while enforcement is still bad is just going to move the problem around until the rules start becoming enforced.

So besides Alaitoc and Ynnari, what was the highest other Craftworld finish? That way we know that there is a TRUE Eldar problem and not a specific one.

 Vaktathi wrote:
They're not very common in other games, and when present, such games are designed around a time component as an inherent part of the rules or experience, and there's little or no back-and-forth in actions and armies tend to be much smaller, none of which is true with 40k.

Can people get slick at it? Sure. Will it work without any issues for most players most of the time? Yes. However, does the current time scheme work for most players most of the time? Also yes. Can chess clocks raise their own issues? Yes. Are lots of people who engage in the 40k hobby less than outstandingly capable people? Yes. Do people routinely mess up simple things all the time? Yes.

Again, a smaller points limit is going to be an easier, simpler, and cleaner solution.

Warmachine is really the game that started pushing chess clocks and really doesn't have anything in its design that makes it better suited to using chess clocks. There's certainly no time component inherent in the game and it used round timers for years before introducing turn timers to deal with slow play. The issue there is that turn timers just aren't how a game actually functions, as turn times vary greatly over the course of the game.

All chess clocks do is take all the time a round timer is attempting to allocate to you and give it to you as a lump sum for you to budget as you see fit. I've had players on my turn flip the clock to themselves and go to the bathroom in the middle of our game and you know what? It's their time, good for them.

Also, fwiw, as far as armor saves go, I play Trollbloods in WM, an army defined by making an army save 1 by 1 for every attack your opponent makes. I assure you, its not a problem.

 bullyboy wrote:
So besides Alaitoc and Ynnari, what was the highest other Craftworld finish? That way we know that there is a TRUE Eldar problem and not a specific one.

All flavors of Eldar have access to spam reapers.

And Alaitoc has an insane Craftworld trait... Ulthwe was in the top 50 i believe too.

Warmachine also has a smaller amount of interactions. I'm fairly certain the opponent has opportunities to interrupt every single phase of the game I play.

In movement, he can play a stratagem to shoot at a deep striking unit.
In psychic, he can deny my stuff.
In shooting, he can make saves.
In charges, he fires overwatch.
In assault, he ... well, essentially does a whole assault phase himself.
In morale, same thing. Assault and morale are damn near completely shared between both players, depending on what happened during the turn.

That's fine. Swap the clock. In fact, tapping the clock to myself is a great way to announce that I'm using a strategem. Flipping the clock to my opponent after I declare a charge is a great way to let them declare or decline Overwatch. Cast a power, flip the clock; they can flip it right back if they don't want to deny it.

Guild Ball uses a chess clock and its got alternating activations. The system can handle rapid back and forth. It's what its really designed for.

A problem is that people don't like to be confrontational without back up. This is try for players and judges. At least with a clock a person can have something to point at as proof of a person being TFG.

You are correct that if TO/Judges were more aggressive about enforcing the rules about poor sportsman type behaviors then we would all have better games.

I haven't played in a 40K event but I have played in many PP events. I can tell you that the clock takes a lot of wind out of the sails of most game play problems. It also seems to me that when you have timed rounds that the play time should be fairly even if not exactly even. I really hate to use this line but, if you want to use an army that eats up a lot of time just get good with it when using a clock


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Warmachine has just as many interuption/interactions. When you move I have the option of counter charging or moving away from you.

When you cast spells I have abilities that cancel them or interrupt you by attacking the caster.

When you attack I can counter attack or redirect your attack.

Granted not all of these interruptions are available to all armies all the time but it's not uncommon for me to be attacking you when it's your turn but on my clock.

I still maintain there's no value in clocks if TOs/opponents/whatever won't enforce the rules.

Slowplaying LITERALLY HAPPENED on stream. There's video evidence. If video evidence of a rule breaking exists and the TO still won't enforce the rules, then clock evidence won't help either.

Players need time to decide if they want to use a stratagem. Players need to reference their own rules on your opponents turn.

A clock is punitive in a game like this. Most games aren't played in bad faith. Why would you throw the baby out with the bath water?

My overall view here is that chess clocks won't make the game more enjoyable (the reason most people are playing). Very few people actually get purposefully slow played. The only use I see for one is as a judging tool if there is a complaint of slow play put a clock on the game. Otherwise I think it will just make players have less enjoyment during events.

Breng77 wrote:
My overall view here is that chess clocks won't make the game more enjoyable (the reason most people are playing). Very few people actually get purposefully slow played. The only use I see for one is as a judging tool if there is a complaint of slow play put a clock on the game. Otherwise I think it will just make players have less enjoyment during events.

Essentially this, except even if there is slow play a judge still won't enforce anything because they don't even when there's live, ongoing video evidence with thousands (okay that was excessive) hundreds of viewers, and multiple threads on different community forums as well as the official Warhammer 40k Facebook.

I have seen literally 0 people in all those places argue that Tony wasn't slowplaying, and yet the judges (whether at the time or now) do nothing.

As someone who plays WM/H competitively, part of list building is understanding what you can effectively play with the clock. Also knowing when to skip shooting/fighting with a unit that has a very low chance of doing anything useful in order to save time.

Breng77 wrote:
My overall view here is that chess clocks won't make the game more enjoyable (the reason most people are playing). Very few people actually get purposefully slow played. The only use I see for one is as a judging tool if there is a complaint of slow play put a clock on the game. Otherwise I think it will just make players have less enjoyment during events.

This. And a clock doesn't tell the story.

It just tells you time used, not if that time was used in slow playing or not.

Player 1: Horde army
Player 2: Tiny elite army

If they each take 45 minutes on their first turn, the clock shows no problem. Maybe player 2 is slow playing though, because 45 minutes for his army is SUPER LONG.

 Marmatag wrote:
Players need time to decide if they want to use a stratagem. Players need to reference their own rules on your opponents turn.

A clock is punitive in a game like this. Most games aren't played in bad faith. Why would you throw the baby out with the bath water?

How is this different from any other game that uses a clock. You're allowed to think on your opponent's clock. If you want to do something then you punch the clock to your time and do it. If you can't think fast enough then how is that any better if you're constantly asking your opponent to "wait a moment while I decide". At least with a clock it's on your time and if you take too much time it should be punitive. Both players knew the rules coming into the game (equal time) what makes your delaying any better than his?

I remember this same sort of reaction to the Force Organization Chart when 3rd came into play. Players were crying all over the place about how GW killed the game by requiring 1 HQ and 2 Troops to be played by an army. Now it's no big deal. The players adapted to the rule and moved on. Adding a clock to the game would be the same effect.

So here we are 5 pages into arguing about clocks, and I have to say smaller point values look better each page. Even without intentional delay of game, most 2k battles are too slow to complete within a 2 hour window.

The reason we have this problem is simple, 8th ed is slower than 7th ed, yet we increased the points in the tournament scene. There are lots of reasons why 8th ed is slower, and not much we can do about it. So rather than threatening players with no malintent with harsh timers and the risk of forfeit, we should just reduce the scope of the game so it has an easier time fitting within the allotted time box.

Is 1500 the right points value, hard to say, but we can try it out and dial it in over the year. Or we can keep arguing about clocks I suppose and how to fit 7 pounds of crap into a 5 pound bag.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I still maintain there's no value in clocks if TOs/opponents/whatever won't enforce the rules.

Slowplaying LITERALLY HAPPENED on stream. There's video evidence. If video evidence of a rule breaking exists and the TO still won't enforce the rules, then clock evidence won't help either.

^^^^^^^

If a game being livestreamed to many thousands of people in real time as part of a high profile commercial event can't deal with slowplaying, my confidence in a chess clock fixing anything is minimal.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
A problem is that people don't like to be confrontational without back up. This is try for players and judges. At least with a clock a person can have something to point at as proof of a person being TFG.

You are correct that if TO/Judges were more aggressive about enforcing the rules about poor sportsman type behaviors then we would all have better games.

I haven't played in a 40K event but I have played in many PP events. I can tell you that the clock takes a lot of wind out of the sails of most game play problems. It also seems to me that when you have timed rounds that the play time should be fairly even if not exactly even. I really hate to use this line but, if you want to use an army that eats up a lot of time just get good with it when using a clock


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Warmachine has just as many interuption/interactions. When you move I have the option of counter charging or moving away from you.

When you cast spells I have abilities that cancel them or interrupt you by attacking the caster.

When you attack I can counter attack or redirect your attack.

Granted not all of these interruptions are available to all armies all the time but it's not uncommon for me to be attacking you when it's your turn but on my clock.

these interrupt events are exceptions generally, not your opponent rolling something literally every time you attack them or do something as a rule. You probably also dont have 100-200 models on the table. Each army probably has 4-6 maneuver elements as opposed to a 40k army that will have double or triple that or more. You dont have a lot that can shoot across the entire table, most units wont be attacking more than a couple of times instead of often literally every turn. The total number of actions and passbacks, rolls and unit count, at least from my memory of WM back when I played, is dramatically less than in a game of 40k.

Warmahordes is a game where the rules, game design ethos, and flow of play make the game much more amenable to timers. 40k is not. Warmahordes is about as close to MtG ae you can get with minis, its a very ability/combo oriented game built around decisive actions and killing blows, this plays to a timer much better and the rules writers are assuming you are likely to be playing more than one game in a sitting, 40k is much more an attritional battle sandbox where the rules assume youre not playing more than one game a day.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I still maintain there's no value in clocks if TOs/opponents/whatever won't enforce the rules.

Slowplaying LITERALLY HAPPENED on stream. There's video evidence. If video evidence of a rule breaking exists and the TO still won't enforce the rules, then clock evidence won't help either.

Clock evidence? With a clock you can slowplay as much as you like, you will just lose. No one slowplay in chess, for that same reason.

But I just don't think that 40k current mechanics can work well with a chess clock. Who should roll for saves, and on whose clock?

 Marmatag wrote:

 mugginns wrote:
Honestly part of the problem is with the players. Nobody wants to play against the list that is rolling 400 dice per turn or whatever. Don't bring lists like that. You'll still have fun, I guarantee it.

Wow, okay? This post was bad and you should feel bad.

Rolling for advancing, rolling for stratagems, rolling for shooting, rolling for charging, rolling for fighting... An army that actually plays in every phase of the game will roll quite a bit of dice. Just a fact. Most armies can fight twice, or shoot twice, and have some form of rerolls on top of all the dice rolling.

If you fire 200 dice, rerolling misses (hitting on 4's) that's 300 dice rolled expected per shooting phase until you get diminished. For example.

What's your point here?

But I just don't think that 40k current mechanics can work well with a chess clock. Who should roll for saves, and on whose clock?

That's been mentioned at least a dozen times m8.

Slow play is one reason why I think tournaments fail (that and the bad balance in the game).

I prefer leagues. Where you play a series of games over a certain time frame in days or weeks. That way slow play is never a factor.

People are just used to tournament events being what they are though to change that.